ENHANCED UK PRODUCTION

[brushman47544]

If Dapol can manufacture economically in the UK, then good for them and long may it continue. But whether or not a particular item is manufactured in the U.K. or say China will not affect my purchasing choices, which will be determined by the quality and accuracy of the model. I would be happy to buy more Dapol wagons for example, in particular banana vans and milk tankers, but Dapol keeps churning out the same wagons with their old in accurate chassis that are really due for an upgrade. Until they do, my money will go elsewhere.

[cromptonnut]

I'm guessing you don't model in N gauge then?!

 

Occasionally but this particular product I am waiting for is an O gauge milk tank.

[shanks522]

Well done Dapol, investing in home grown products can only be a good thing, whatever they are.

 

Graham.

[Roy Langridge]

I am also pleased that UK production of some items will increase. I just hope that people don't complain about the prices - we can't have UK production at Chinese prices.

 

Roy

[classy52]

I am also pleased that UK production of some items will increase. I just hope that people don't complain about the prices - we can't have UK production at Chinese prices.

 

Roy

 

Yeah but the Chinese prices are no longer Chinese prices...

[Mike Storey]

I understand that a statement a while ago suggested that Hornby were going to bring back some of their production, whether this is true or had happened I am not privileged to that information. But generally in the manufacturing sector many UK companies are going back down that route.

 

Good luck to Dapol, we have a moulding company near us making products for the building industry that is running shifts till 2am for 6 days a week all using local labour. The company is expanding and will soon outgrow its site. Another UK success story. 

 

Hornby have and are increasing the range made in the UK, albeit slowly:

 

http://www.plastch.com/news/

[Roy Langridge]

Yeah but the Chinese prices are no longer Chinese prices...

Oh yes they are, just everything else is even more expensive ;-)

 

Roy

[batrapyr]

I think that members are reading for too much into Dapol's announcement about its new injection moulding machine. One piece of equipment is not going to make a substantial difference to the speed of production or the price of anything produced. It definitely doesn't constitute a full production line and, presumably, can only produce some plastic parts. Assembly and/or packaging of those parts is not included and, therefore, the production and delivery process won't change, materially.

 

Whilst I agree that this is a step in the right direction, for Dapol, I very much doubt that we modellers will see much difference in the output from Chirk.

[classy52]

Oh yes they are, just everything else is even more expensive ;-)

 

Roy

 

So if model railway was made in the UK do you believe OO Gauge products would be priced at O Gauge levels?

Being relatively new to model railway I'm interested to hear people's opinions whether manufacturing in the UK would significantly increase prices above to what they are today which are pretty steep in my opinion, over the last 3 years of purchasing model railway products I have seen pretty sharp increases for something made in China which begs the question do you bring it back to the UK where you know the quality would be much better and probably cost the same or only slightly higher.

Interesting thought...

 

Extra note:

Bachmann Class 66 tooling is now 8-10 years old I think (correct me if I'm wrong) but new 66 loco's have gone from around £80 or less now up to £170 in a short space of time but the tooling or mould's haven't changed at all.

Someone else had also mentioned this in these forums that loco's tooling which haven't changed have doubled in price over the last few years and too be honest I have catalogues from 2010 onwards and it is clear to see how prices have shot up for products that haven't been re-tooled or upgraded.

Yes you can point to increased labor costs in China but still doesn't explain the massive increases for existing tooling.

Edited April 26, 2017 by classy52

[Phil Parker]

Once you have the mould, making the bits is really cheap. According to the manufacturers, the cost comes in paying someone to assemble all the bits to produce a finished item.

 

Airfix is using their equipment to produce plastic and Quick build kits. Press a button, a few seconds later the parts fall out of the machine and go into a box ready for sale. You can't make a loco like this. That requires someone to spend a lot of time putting bits together. If there aren't a lot of bits, such as one of Dapols simple ex-Dublo wagons, then the cost isn't that high. When you've got 80 or more components then the economics change. People in China still earn a lower hourly rate than people in the UK. It's skilled work too as anyone who's ever re-assembled a loco will know. That means the people who make trains are often poached by the companies who make electronics as the skillset is the same, but electronics pays better.

 

More moulding in the UK might mean the components could be shipped to any country, not just China, for assembly. That's harder to do if the tools are on the other side of the planet in someone else's factory. Might this extra flexibility be helpful?

[Loconuts]

Once you have the mould, making the bits is really cheap. According to the manufacturers, the cost comes in paying someone to assemble all the bits to produce a finished item.

 

Airfix is using their equipment to produce plastic and Quick build kits. Press a button, a few seconds later the parts fall out of the machine and go into a box ready for sale. You can't make a loco like this. That requires someone to spend a lot of time putting bits together. If there aren't a lot of bits, such as one of Dapols simple ex-Dublo wagons, then the cost isn't that high. When you've got 80 or more components then the economics change. People in China still earn a lower hourly rate than people in the UK. It's skilled work too as anyone who's ever re-assembled a loco will know. That means the people who make trains are often poached by the companies who make electronics as the skillset is the same, but electronics pays better.

 

More moulding in the UK might mean the components could be shipped to any country, not just China, for assembly. That's harder to do if the tools are on the other side of the planet in someone else's factory. Might this extra flexibility be helpful?

 

That is not quite correct Phil, I worked in Manufacturing producing electronic instrumentation. We had assembly lines in the plant so no one person was responsible for the assembly of each instrument, it was done in steps with the assembly aided by jigs and fixtures. Example have you seen from inside a car plant, they take seconds putting an engine or dash board into a vehicle. How long would it take for a private individual to put a dash into a car? half a day or more.

 

All I know is that I could not work on an assembly line all day, carrying out the same operation hour after hour. Mind numbing.

 

I do not know the town of Chirk and the employment opportunities there but what ever Dapol do in expanding their production will be beneficial to the people of the town and the local economy.

 

Also without getting political, the Government has increased the number of nursery hours available to parents. This will release a large number of people seeking part time employment of 16-20 hours a week onto the employment market. 

[2750Papyrus]

That is not quite correct Phil, I worked in Manufacturing producing electronic instrumentation. We had assembly lines in the plant so no one person was responsible for the assembly of each instrument, it was done in steps with the assembly aided by jigs and fixtures. Example have you seen from inside a car plant, they take seconds putting an engine or dash board into a vehicle. How long would it take for a private individual to put a dash into a car? half a day or more.

 

All I know is that I could not work on an assembly line all day, carrying out the same operation hour after hour. Mind numbing.

 

I do not know the town of Chirk and the employment opportunities there but what ever Dapol do in expanding their production will be beneficial to the people of the town and the local economy.

 

Also without getting political, the Government has increased the number of nursery hours available to parents. This will release a large number of people seeking part time employment of 16-20 hours a week onto the employment market. 

 

I performed my industrial training with Renold Chains, whose shop floor included many presses and assembly machines.  I once asked one of the girls if she didn't get bored working the same machine all day every day.  Her reply was that she had never thought about it!  Apparently, conversation with her work mates gave her the interest she needed.

[Roy Langridge]

So if model railway was made in the UK do you believe OO Gauge products would be priced at O Gauge levels?

Being relatively new to model railway I'm interested to hear people's opinions whether manufacturing in the UK would significantly increase prices above to what they are today which are pretty steep in my opinion, over the last 3 years of purchasing model railway products I have seen pretty sharp increases for something made in China which begs the question do you bring it back to the UK where you know the quality would be much better and probably cost the same or only slightly higher.

Interesting thought...

 

Extra note:

Bachmann Class 66 tooling is now 8-10 years old I think (correct me if I'm wrong) but new 66 loco's have gone from around £80 or less now up to £170 in a short space of time but the tooling or mould's haven't changed at all.

Someone else had also mentioned this in these forums that loco's tooling which haven't changed have doubled in price over the last few years and too be honest I have catalogues from 2010 onwards and it is clear to see how prices have shot up for products that haven't been re-tooled or upgraded.

Yes you can point to increased labor costs in China but still doesn't explain the massive increases for existing tooling.

 

Wages in China are significantly lower. A good salary there is about £2.50 an hour, compare that with our minimum wage of £7.20 an hour. As has been said, loco construction is a skilled and very labour intensive task. The maths isn't hard!

 

Roy

[Revolution Ben]

Yes you can point to increased labor costs in China but still doesn't explain the massive increases for existing tooling.

No it does not, but bear in mind that any manufacturer pricing a model just to pay for that model would rapidly go out of business.

 

The price of the model has to contribute to UK management and R&D costs, UK staff salaries and pensions, development of new tooling, sampling of new models, attending exhibitions, advertising, maintenance of buildings, etc etc. Now for any given model those costs may be a small fraction, but they are there, and they are tending to go up.

 

None of these would change if the models were produced in the UK. In fact, some may be significantly higher such as the maintenance/repair fees for machines, paying the salaries of operators, even the electricity to power them.

 

And in answer to another post, I am not convinced that the skills exist in the UK to produce models to the standard we have come to expect. The last models I bought that were produced in the UK - Poole era Farish models - had paint and print finishes that are far inferior to those produced in China and were much more basic.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Mark Saunders]

And in answer to another post, I am not convinced that the skills exist in the UK to produce models to the standard we have come to expect. The last models I bought that were produced in the UK - Poole era Farish models - had paint and print finishes that are far inferior to those produced in China and were much more basic.

 

Ben

 

If this is the prevalent attitude to all British manufactured goods then it is time to "throw in the towel" and give up!

 

Measuring todays expectations by the past products of the same company that in reality is only a Brand Name, Skills that were not present in China twenty years ago plus the technology has moved on too!

 

Watch & wait and if unhappy just follow the free market and do not buy!

 

Mark Saunders

[Phil Parker]

That is not quite correct Phil, I worked in Manufacturing producing electronic instrumentation. We had assembly lines in the plant so no one person was responsible for the assembly of each instrument, it was done in steps with the assembly aided by jigs and fixtures. Example have you seen from inside a car plant, they take seconds putting an engine or dash board into a vehicle. How long would it take for a private individual to put a dash into a car? half a day or more.

 

All I know is that I could not work on an assembly line all day, carrying out the same operation hour after hour. Mind numbing.

 

I do not know the town of Chirk and the employment opportunities there but what ever Dapol do in expanding their production will be beneficial to the people of the town and the local economy.

 

Also without getting political, the Government has increased the number of nursery hours available to parents. This will release a large number of people seeking part time employment of 16-20 hours a week onto the employment market. 

 

Have you seen film of people assembling model railway items? The Rapido threads are useful in this respect. There is nothing like the automation you see in a car plant as the numbers of identical items going out the door are tiny. Thus, most of the work is done by hand. There are jigs for some parts to make life easier but it's a much more manual business than you might think.

 

It doesn't matter how many people are releasing into employment either - we have a basic minimum wage in the UK which is higher than the wages paid in China, it's more expensive to live here after all. So an hour of Chinese labour costs any manufacturer less than an hour of UK labour, even if the Chinese labour is skilled and the UK unskilled. At the moment, this difference is greater than the cost of shipping models around the world. Maybe one day it won't be, but for the minute it is.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Stepping away from Dapol's investment for a moment 

...Being relatively new to model railway I'm interested to hear people's opinions whether manufacturing in the UK would significantly increase prices above to what they are today which are pretty steep in my opinion...

 

Bachmann Class 66 tooling is now 8-10 years old I think (correct me if I'm wrong) but new 66 loco's have gone from around £80 or less now up to £170 in a short space of time but the tooling or mould's haven't changed at all. Someone else had also mentioned this in these forums that loco's tooling which haven't changed have doubled in price over the last few years ...

 There's going to be cross-subsidy within any given range. It is perfectly true that a model tooled up and on sale 'before the price rises' that has fully recovered its research and tooling investment and made a profit, could then be sold at a much lower price than a newly tooled model introduction with equivalent content, that has to be sold at a price to first achieve investment recovery and then turn a profit. But instead of that, what you do is apply a pricing model that 'spreads the pain' over the entire range.

 

The most dramatic price rises are on the smaller and cheaper items like wagons; especially the small four wheeled types tooled over fifteen years ago and which have sold in wheelbarrow-load quantities since then. There's a one piece moulded body, running gear assembly of circa twenty-five parts onto a moulded plastic frame, maybe three paint stages, two part packaging, done. Not too much hand assembly content in short.

 

If Dapol can manufacture economically in the UK, then good for them and long may it continue. But whether or not a particular item is manufactured in the U.K. or say China will not affect my purchasing choices, which will be determined by the quality and accuracy of the model. I would be happy to buy more Dapol wagons for example, in particular banana vans and milk tankers, but Dapol keeps churning out the same wagons with their old in accurate chassis that are really due for an upgrade. Until they do, my money will go elsewhere.

 Which brings us to what Dapol might just take on. They already have some good legacy steam era wagon tooling covering types not otherwise available, and sell the bodies only for a small price at present. The running gear has been the weakness. Upgrade that aspect, and between relatively little of the expensive hand assembly that such product requires, and the much increased prices on Chinese production of equivalent items, there might be an opportunity. Wait and see...

[Oldddudders]

bring it back to the UK where you know the quality would be much better and probably cost the same or only slightly higher.

I have no reason to think that quality levels in the UK would suddenly approach those of China. Margate people had been making model trains for decades, but the move to China made the detail and accuracy go up exponentially. It wasn't all about cost.

 

My first awareness of China as a new manufacturing base for our hobby was in the early '90s, when LifeLike produced their BL2 HO diesel. Overnight the traditional US manufacturers had been upstaged. Detail of unheard-of levels, except in handmade Asian-manufactured brass models, was now on offer, and so affordable. Cost was not the only factor there, either. One leading firm of the day was said to be importing illegal immigrants from Mexico into California, paying them a pittance, and dobbing them in to the immigration people if they became uppity, whereupon a new team would be recruited. But the quality was ordinary, because the assembly skills weren't there.

 

China, for whatever reason, has those skills. Those watching rising living standards there have known for years that prices were only going to go up. They have accordingly been looking at other under-developed labour-pools to be the next China. AFAIK results have not been promising so far.

 

It must also be said that if Dapol or others deem that models with slightly less magnificent detail standards, but with the kudos of being British-manufactured, will alter the market, I think they are wrong. Examine any thread about a forthcoming model and you will find the expected standards must be met or a percentage of serious purchasers will shy away. Only models that have a bargain price will overcome that expectation, and no way will we get 80% quality and detail for 50% prices, least of all if made in the UK.

[davetheroad]

Thinks - they could venture into plastic chassis production. Lima did it and Hornby do with their Railroad range diesels etc. They don't rot either!.

[The Stationmaster]

Ben

 

If this is the prevalent attitude to all British manufactured goods then it is time to "throw in the towel" and give up!

 

Measuring todays expectations by the past products of the same company that in reality is only a Brand Name, Skills that were not present in China twenty years ago plus the technology has moved on too!

 

Watch & wait and if unhappy just follow the free market and do not buy!

 

Mark Saunders

 

I thought that 'we' threw in the towel in many areas of manufacturing a long time ago.  And of course when you don't have the skills (and in the case of modern highly detailed railway models have never had them at mass market levels) you face a very steep and expensive learning curve while looking to a customer base to support you.  Somehow I don't think most modern customer bases have that sort of patience, let alone the necessary price/value insensitivity which would probably be essential.

[Les1952]

The pics of that new machine look as if it is the bigger brother of one already in the factory.   If I remember correctly we were shown that one making N-gauge wagon bodies at last year's open day.

 

It is an incremental shift in the production facilities at Chirk - I don't see it making locos as we haven't seen the other kit that will be needed to go with it.

 

However not all of Dapol's coaches and wagons are presently made at Chirk.  My guess (and it IS mostly a guess) is that this new kit will allow Dapol to do more of what they can do at Chirk, and to do it to a finer standard - upgraded chassis look like a good guess to me.

 

In any case Dapol aren't large, and this kit isn't cheap so it is a substantial investment.

 

Les

[ruggedpeak]

In any case Dapol aren't large, and this kit isn't cheap so it is a substantial investment.

 

Les

It suggests Dapol have faith in the hobby and are prepared to invest in it and in the UK. Good for them and we should support them in doing so.

[Oldddudders]

It suggests Dapol have faith in the hobby and are prepared to invest in it and in the UK. Good for them and we should support them in doing so.

Handsomely said, but in practice any company producing the right product at the right price will be successful. If Dapol can get that right, as well as quality control issues, then they will succeed. "Supporting" a company implies relative buying indifference if it is in the right color box, as one might buy all one's clothes at M&S or Primark - after all, they each sell shirts, trousers and smalls. This market is more complicated - not to mention more discerning - than that, I feel.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Oldddudders

[ruggedpeak]

"Supporting" a company implies relative buying indifference

Not necessarily. But I will be a little more positively disposed towards the brand since I know any purchase will benefitting a British company with onshore manufacturing.

[Mike Storey]

Handsomely said, but in practice any company producing the right product at the right price will be successful. If Dapol can get that right, as well as quality control issues, then they will succeed. "Supporting" a company implies relative buying indifference if it is in the right color box, as one might buy all one's clothes at M&S or Primark - after all, they each sell shirts, trousers and smalls. This market is more complicated - not to mention more discerning - than that, I feel.

 

Your analysis is faultless, except that I, and I suspect others, will deliberately go out of my way to ensure I do not buy a Chinese product if a European one (which may occasionally mean a British one) is available. It may be more expensive, and may be not quite as VFM, but my stupid heart keeps saying that if I do not put some money their way, they may not be able to afford to improve their quality, productivity or new product development. It is not how capitalism is supposed to work, and it certainly did not work in the "Buy British" campaigns of the 1970's. But things just seem a lot more critical now. I just bought an Italian-made petrol mower, knowing I could have had a Chinese version with more gadgets, for a lesser price. Unusually, only our British friends here took the proverbial, our French, Dutch and German friends adopted a more understanding tone, and agreed they would probably do the same. The clincher was that it may have helped keep a few more Europeans in a job for a few more days, something which the UK element felt compelled to agree, but who then argued this was not a sustainable policy (or words that meant as much). The expensive example of keeping British Leyland alive was used a lot, and I found it hard to debate. The market is certainly more complicated than we think.

 

But in our miniature world, it is much easier. If there is no British made 00 model of the one I "need", I will not hesitate to buy a foreign made one. In large scale, garden railways, thank goodness we still have a real choice. Roundhouse at Doncaster are still one of the market leaders for the main live steam kit, despite Accucraft's Chinese made and extremely good alternatives, as well as numerous UK laser cutting specialists and one remaining PIM maker, for rolling stock kits.