SECR P Class 0-6-0T in OO Gauge from Hattons

[davknigh]

I imagine many people said the Bachmann “Jinty” would never sell ‘cos Hornby made one that was cheaper but there’s no comparison beteween the two. The current Terrier is a misbegotten wee thing that can be made into a decent engine with a bit of work and some etched parts to fine things down a bit, but a new A1 or A1X would have great appeal in part because of its size and the range of prototypes available. Given the scanning technology and the availability of preserved prototypes a new Terrier strikes me as a good idea. But then I don’t produce models for the market so it’s not up to me.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[John B]

The main problem with anyone contemplating a Terrier is that of variety of tooling required to create all of thse tempting variations. It's far from simple, certainly not just confined to A1 vs A1X variants. However, I'd concede that a good base model of an A1 and an A1X (two rather different toolings) would be a good start.

 

Then you begin to run into the minutae: IOW modifications, Col. Stephens, LSWR & SECR variants, etc.. and you realize that out of the original class of 110, there were variations amongst the breed a-plenty. And even pretty radical rebuilds of individual locos at various stages of their lives.

[davknigh]

Then you begin to run into the minutae: IOW modifications, Col. Stephens, LSWR & SECR variants, etc.. and you realize that out of the original class of 110, there were variations amongst the breed a-plenty. And even pretty radical rebuilds of individual locos at various stages of their lives.

Truth be told this could be said of virtually any locomotive that has been around long enough. I suspect even BR Standards would have their variations. But an A1 and an A1X would be a start and then the modellers could take over.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Ian J.]

With due apologies to those who love it, the market for the current Terrier is more akin to a collection of toys, the model being what it is. Any new model would probably have to be done to a standard that would be similar to or better than the Dapol O gauge one and its appeal would be just because of its exsquisite looks with the fine detail.

 

I think the biggest risk is for any company other than Dapol, who could probably convert their 7mm one to 4mm much more quickly and take a chunk of the market.

[NHY 581]

Perchance Dapol might chance their arm.......?

 

 

Rob

[JSpencer]

Perchance Dapol might chance their arm.......?

 

 

Rob

 

It would be logical given they have done the Terrier in O and N gauge. Maybe a follow on from the B4. Put me down for Fenchurch.

[Dunsignalling]

With due apologies to those who love it, the market for the current Terrier is more akin to a collection of toys, the model being what it is. Any new model would probably have to be done to a standard that would be similar to or better than the Dapol O gauge one and its appeal would be just because of its exsquisite looks with the fine detail.

 

I think the biggest risk is for any company other than Dapol, who could probably convert their 7mm one to 4mm much more quickly and take a chunk of the market.

In many ways, it seems odd that Dapol haven't jumped on it already. However, let us not forget that Hornby's current Terrier originated with Dapol.

 

It's possible that the deal done when they sold the tooling/rights to Hornby might include an undertaking not to make a new one in OO.

 

John

[No Decorum]

It would be nice to see a good quality, high detail Terrier get made, but I doubt Hattons would do it though I don't know why I think that.

I suspect that you’re right ...

 

The safer route is a new prototype, and right now industrials are in vogue..., needs to be preserved and weirder the better...

... and that is why. There is always the argument that a poor model creates an appetite for something better but if a new tooling is to be produced, it needs to be well-nigh faultless, otherwise, what is the point of buying one? Especially with so much chasing our limited resources these days.

 

BR inherited, I believe, 448 classes of locomotive, so there is still plenty of choice even before looking at industrials. I suspect that Hatton’s thought about the Terrier and decided on something not previously available instead. It looks as if that’s going to turn out to be a good decision.

 

Not that I would want Bachmann to stop its proposed J72 – not for a moment!

[Budgie]

Getting back on topic, here is a recent picture of Bluebell.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

BR inherited, I believe, 448 classes of locomotive, so there is still plenty of choice... I suspect that Hatton’s thought about the Terrier and decided on something not previously available instead. It looks as if that’s going to turn out to be a good decision...

Count me in on this opinion. Plenty of late surviving subjects that have never yet had a RTR model, and there must be fifty or so among these likely to do better commercially than repeating the large majority of the existing RTR model selection. Hattons have already voted with their feet on the King in this respect. Did well to take the P rather than a new Terrier.

 

(For the record I feel Bachmann are unwise to reprise the J72; there's a mountain of the previous models out there, and the relatively light weight and shunting use means that the split chassis mechanism lasts rather better than usual in this model. They would have had the NER types in ecstasies had they ventured a G5 instead.)

[papagolfjuliet]

 

 

It's possible that the deal done when they sold the tooling/rights to Hornby might include an undertaking not to make a new one in OO.

 

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was in fact the case. In one of Pat Hammond's books maybe?

[Ian J.]

In many ways, it seems odd that Dapol haven't jumped on it already. However, let us not forget that Hornby's current Terrier originated with Dapol.

 

It's possible that the deal done when they sold the tooling/rights to Hornby might include an undertaking not to make a new one in OO.

 

John

 

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was in fact the case. In one of Pat Hammond's books maybe?

 

I wonder then if such deal cuts both ways - Hornby having taken over the tooling then, as part of the deal, perhaps Dapol also said Hornby couldn't make a new model either?

Edited October 12, 2017 by Ian J.

[adb968008]

Ripe for a commission from a retailer then?

Would you take the risk of Hornby not doing this to your sales...

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/railroad-gwr-0-4-2t-4837-class-14xx.html

(It was £35 last week), the Warley 1450 is advertised the same.

 

This was £35 two years ago.

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/k-esr-0-6-0-sutton-aix-terrier-class-Hornby-club-exclusive.html

 

If advertised soon enough, they might even get one out before the commissioners new one... like the cl 71 and ensure there’s armfuls of them available too.

 

plenty of J94’s still being released, who knows they too might decide an MSC one looks good in 2018 too.

 

Hornby has shown they will defend their territory.

Edited October 12, 2017 by adb968008

[Ian J.]

A new Terrier to a modern, high quality detail level, and accurate in its variations, would be streets ahead of the old Dapol tooling. I don't think there would be any competition from the old one except for those buyers for whom the likely £100 a new one would cost would be too much.

[JSpencer]

A new Terrier to a modern, high quality detail level, and accurate in its variations, would be streets ahead of the old Dapol tooling. I don't think there would be any competition from the old one except for those buyers for whom the likely £100 a new one would cost would be too much.

 

Except Hornby's new Terrier (and J94 for that matter) RRP pricing is now higher than an all new tool P (or DJM austerity). I half feel that the factory works pricing to ball part figures and do not take into account the details of assembly itself (proof of this is probably the Hornby 72XX and Star classes, originally costed as a super detailed model, then simplified in production as a design clever models with no real visible difference in price compared to its more complex similar loco stable mates).

I would be very surprised if the former Dapol terrier uses as many parts and is as hard to assemble as the recent H class!

 

Back to the 'P', - in a similar way -  I am surprised that the complex Bluebell and SECR liveries are no more expensive than plain BR black.

 

(BTW - well done everyone, we have cut the gap with the Barclay thread from 6 to 2 pages - if Hattons Dave can avoid posting painted samples of the Barclays for 6 months, that would help this thread immensely :-) )

Edited October 13, 2017 by JSpencer

[Ian J.]

(BTW - well done everyone, we have cut the gap with the Barclay thread from 6 to 2 pages - if Hattons Dave can avoid posting painted samples of the Barclays for 6 months, that would help this thread immensely :-) )

 

But how many of those pages have been about Terriers?

[papagolfjuliet]

Would you take the risk of Hornby not doing this to your sales...

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/railroad-gwr-0-4-2t-4837-class-14xx.html

(It was £35 last week), the Warley 1450 is advertised the same.

 

This was £35 two years ago.

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/k-esr-0-6-0-sutton-aix-terrier-class-Hornby-club-exclusive.html

 

If advertised soon enough, they might even get one out before the commissioners new one... like the cl 71 and ensure there’s armfuls of them available too.

 

plenty of J94’s still being released, who knows they too might decide an MSC one looks good in 2018 too.

 

Hornby has shown they will defend their territory.

 

 

That strategy seems to be largely aimed at knocking out new rival manufacturers though, and one rival manufacturer in particular. Hatton's has obviously been caught in the crossfire, but DJ Models was Hornby's real target. Targeting a major boxshifter would be very bad for business. To my knowledge they haven't laid a finger on Kernow or Rails.   

[papagolfjuliet]

To put things into perspective,....

 

J72 Class)  Tractive effort 16,760 lbs  2F

P Class)      Tractive effort 7,810lbs.    Unclassified

Terrior)       Tractive effort 10,695 lbs  0P

 

Even the little L&YR 'pug' 0-4-0ST had a tractive effort of 11,335 and Drummonds diminutive C14 0-4-0T (ex-steamrailmotor) had a tractive effort of 9,720lbs.  

 

As an aside, I suspect Wainwrights 'P' holds the record for the most feeble steam loco on record despite its 0-6-0T configuration.

 

Interestingly this Bluebell driver, posting on Nat Pres, takes the view that the P is a much more user-friendly machine than the A1X: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/hattons-announce-secr-p-class-and-barclay-14-0-4-0st.1002451/#post-1925216

[JSpencer]

While looking for a suitable modelling subject for a P, I found an interesting article about the SERs attempt to compete with the LCDR for Chatham customers building 3 stations and a bridge with Chatham Central as the terminus. When the two concerns made a joint effort called the SECR, the former SER line into Rochester and Chatham was worked like a light railway, first by steam railcars then by P class. Number 323 is cited at the end of the article.

Hope you enjoy : http://www.medwaymemories.co.uk/?page_id=651

In other research, when the Sheppy light railway was built, it was run by the SECR. They brought a former LBSCR terrier to work the freight trains on the line (it must have been really lightly built!). The said loco is now preserved in Canada (we could ask Rapido to do an all new terrier!). In SECR use, the Westinghouse air brake was removed within 2 weeks of arrival (oh dear, I,ll have to correct the Hornby model!). Later in 1910, number 27 of the P class worked the line prior to WWI doing push pull trains (after the Terrier proved such small locos could handle passenger traffic). Most of this comes from Britain's light railways but I did find this link:
http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/SECR/Sheppey.html
The P class was shipped to France in 1918 and Kirtley ex LCDR R and R1s took over (the 0-4-4s not to be confused with former Stirling SER 0-6-0 Rs and R1s).

You may wonder why I found these, well I,m looking for a suitable real SECR subject to model. However these light railways, are not suitable for other SECR models, even Birdcages are too new and too big to run on them even in SR/BR days.

Edited October 20, 2017 by JSpencer

[MartinM]

It would be nice to have a SEC&R brake van to go with it? Hint Hint

 

Martin

[SRman]

On the other hand, I have now built three SECR (or at least, two plus and ex-LCDR one) from kits or kit-bashes, so now would be the perfect time for a manufacturer to render all my work obsolete!!    

Actually, a commercial SECR/LCDR van would be good. It would be nice to have some joined-up thinking on trains as a whole, with stock matching locomotives, although having said that, I would not impose that on Hattons as a small, niche manufacturer. It needs some of the larger manufacturers to take up the challenge, I think. Bachmann have started the ball rolling by doing the soon to be released SECR versions of the birdcage stock. If those are the success I think they are going to be, maybe they will do more similar projects, such as some LBSC stock to go with the E4 (and Hornby's ex-Dapol Terriers), or LSWR stock, which Hornby have *nearly* done - the stock they have done is only appropriate for SR days onwards because it was modified after the Grouping.

I am getting into the realms of speculation there, but, going back to the original point, an SECR brake van (or break van, as they labelled some!) would be a great starting point. Bear in mind too that even some kits are too late for the elaborate liveries on the C class and forthcoming H and P classes; the 'Dance Hall' brakes were only built from 1919, for example.

[Mod4]

Did someone say LSWR Ironclads?

 

No, I think you will find the LSWR is at the other end of the SR territory.... but it would be good if this thread can return to the original topic of the P class and not wonder off into wish list territory..

 

Thanks 

[DJM Dave]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was in fact the case. In one of Pat Hammond's books maybe?

Nope, nothing to indicate that at all, and a OO gauge terrier was on the cards in my plans for future models before I left. Hence laser scanning one for O with the view of getting it shrunk to OO gauge and doing all the variants within reason.

 

I for one, and I hope I would know, and my original CEO didn’t know of any deal to do as suggested, and i’d Have thought we would know?

[Kelly]

It would make sense for Dapol to downsize their O gauge model, but it is a guessing game really as they have to balance the risk that Hornby suddenly announce a brand new Terrier as a new model available now, which they've done with other models before now.

 

Anyway, back to the P before the Mods start getting itchy fingers!

 

I'm looking forward to their release and will be having words with the other half about an order...

[Andy Hayter]

It would be nice to have a SEC&R brake van to go with it? Hint Hint

 

Martin

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127321-3d-printed-wagons-from-r21-secr-brakevan/

 

Will need a bit of work on your part, but having built and just completed 2 vans starting with a Parkside Midland van, this 3D print looks a real breeze.  

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112617-buildingbodging-some-secr-brake-vans/

Edited October 20, 2017 by Andy Hayter