OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[LongRail]

Dave you say that you need to clarify a couple of things but don’t actually ask a question, you may need to re post

[mdvle]

Dave you say that you need to clarify a couple of things but don’t actually ask a question, you may need to re post

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113931-new-oo-gauge-crowdfunded-class-92-initiative/?p=3024504

[Scottish-Exile]

Dave you say that you need to clarify a couple of things but don’t actually ask a question, you may need to re post

 

No, he is saying he needs to clarify: that while he is open to ideas, opening doors aren't one of them.

 

A bit like the old MeatLoaf song 'I'd do anything for love, but I won't do that' which had everyone asking what 'that' was, when it was actually being answered by the preceeding verse.

[Crewlisle]

I am buying one of the 5 car sets to replace my Hornby model so it will still fit my cassette style fiddle yard on my layout 'Crewlisle'.  I cannot understand some of these requests like opening doors; the majority of us modellers would never use it!  On the majority of layouts the APT will be running near its scale operating speed & preferably on a curve.  At exhibitions the main viewing side for 'Crewlisle' has the WCML passing through 'Crewlisle' Exchange on a 7ft radius curve.  This will certainly show off the main feature of the model - the tilt mechanism.

On the APT there are six main features you must get right; everything else is a bonus:

1.    Dimensions & livery.
2.    Close coupling like Bachmann's Blue Pullman.

3.    Directional lights.
4.    A powerful, reliable motor.

5.    Use on second radius curves.
6.    A metal, sprung pantograph like the Sommerfeldt ones.  Please do not do a cop-out like Hornby on their Class 87 & make them out of plastic.  Yes, they may be 100% accurate but cannot be used on OLE!  This is the reason I will not be buying a Class 87 but a Bachmann Class 90 instead.  It may come as a surprise to Hornby but 99% of the time, electric locos use 25Kv collected  from OLE, not hauled around by a diesel  with their pantograph down!

 

Peter

Edited January 31, 2018 by Crewlisle

[Dagworth]

Peter mentions close coupling, that doesn’t apply across most of the set as it is articulated but did set me thinking, how feasible is sprung corridor connections so they remain in contact with each other? That would be a very noticeable feature.

 

Andi

[mikeharvey22]

Peter mentions close coupling, that doesn’t apply across most of the set as it is articulated but did set me thinking, how feasible is sprung corridor connections so they remain in contact with each other? That would be a very noticeable feature.

 

Andi

Gangways are not a big design issue for the articulated cars. Kato have been doing it on their 1/160 TGVs for 30+ years. A properly designed close coupler between the end cars of the articulated rake and the power car/s should be able to produce gangways which touch on the straight as evidenced by most modern N gauge coaches in Continental and UK ranges. The challenge will be an electrical coupler integrated within the close coupler set up, as on the soon to arrive RevolutioN Pendolinos. Everything should be easier in 00 gauge.

[truffy]

I am buying one of the 5 car sets to replace my Hornby model so it will still fit my cassette style fiddle yard on my layout 'Crewlisle'.  I cannot understand some of these requests like opening doors; the majority of us modellers would never use it!  On the majority of layouts the APT will be running near its scale operating speed & preferably on a curve.  At exhibitions the main viewing side for 'Crewlisle' has the WCML passing through 'Crewlisle' Exchange on a 7ft radius curve.  This will certainly show off the main feature of the model - the tilt mechanism.

 

On the APT there are six main features you must get right; everything else is a bonus:

 

1.    Dimensions & livery.

2.    Close coupling like Bachmann's Blue Pullman.

3.    Directional lights.

4.    A powerful, reliable motor.

5.    Use on second radius curves.

6.    A metal, sprung pantograph like the Sommerfeldt ones.  Please do not do a cop-out like Hornby on their Class 87 & make them out of plastic.  Yes, they may be 100% accurate but cannot be used on OLE!  This is the reason I will not be buying a Class 87 but a Bachmann Class 90 instead.  It may come as a surprise to Hornby but 99% of the time, electric locos use 25Kv collected  from OLE, not hauled around by a diesel  with their pantograph down!

 

Peter

 

 

Peter mentions close coupling, that doesn’t apply across most of the set as it is articulated but did set me thinking, how feasible is sprung corridor connections so they remain in contact with each other? That would be a very noticeable feature.

 

Andi

 

According to the Durham Trains product page:

 

OO Gauge APT-P Specifications

 

1) Working 'Damped' tilt mechanism

2) DCC Next22

3) DCC Sound ready with space for speaker

4) Directional lighting

5) Internal subdued coach lighting ( Controllable on DCC)

6) Removable and posable nose with NEM coupling pocket on cab front bulkhead

7) High Quality 5 pole skew wound motor with twin flywheels

8) Us outline style drive train and gearing with train geared for 140mph

9) Cab lighting

10) Fully decorated interior throughout

11) Correct pattern and color seats for 1st and 2nd class

12) Limited Edition certificate

13) Close coupling with non-gap corridor connectors

14) Radius 2 compatible

15) Dual power motor units for longer trains

16) Etched steel windscreen wipers

17) Separately applied parts including foot steps, door slider rails

18) Flush Glazing

 

19) Darkened profile wheel sets to RP25-110

 

 

Does that help?

[adb968008]

I think motor performance, acceleration and speed are the key things.

It’s going to need a motor with suitable grunt for 14 coaches, even with moderate gradient, good slow speed acceleration and fast enough to be convincing this is a 150mph capable train.

 

The class 71 could be a little light on speed, and if you look at models like Dapols122/1 and 73 they also struggle a little with the central motor with two shafts.

 

It would be very bad if your 14 car APT crawled round your layout at full speed, at the same speeds as I encountered with Dapols 121 at full speed.

 

Of recent modern image toolings, the best examples for this job for this is Kernow’s 1020x and Dapol Western.

Edited January 31, 2018 by adb968008

[Crewlisle]

Is the pantograph vertically in line with the track & OLE like Hornby's or does it tilt to 5 to 10 degrees thus giving a small sideways thrust on the OLE?

 

Peter

[royaloak]

It would be very bad if your 14 car APT crawled round your layout at full speed, at the same speeds as I encountered with Dapols 121 at full speed.

Tat would be because the APT is running on restrictive signals because it has caught up with the train in front.

 

Seriously though, I agree it needs to be capable of a realistic maximum scale speed but please dont overdo it.

[JSpencer]

Is the pantograph vertically in line with the track & OLE like Hornby's or does it tilt to 5 to 10 degrees thus giving a small sideways thrust on the OLE?

 

Peter

 

On the real thing they remained vertical so I guess the model should do the same.

[Roy Langridge]

On the real thing they remained vertical so I guess the model should do the same.

On the real thing there are plenty of things on which the model compromises. I think the pan my be one. I would rather have an accurate looking pan that tilts than a clunky looking one that stays vertical.

 

Roy

[JSpencer]

 

None the less, this pick shows it remains horizontal as the train tilts.

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/APT-P%20at%20Murthat%2010-83.jpg

 

And this Railnews article explains the mechanics of how it remains horizontal while the vehicle tilts.

 

http://www.apt-p.com/RailNewsNovember1980Inside.htm

[Roy Langridge]

I know the prototype remains vertical, it has to as the overhead doesn’t move, I just don’t expect this to feature on the model.

 

Roy

Edited February 2, 2018 by Roy Langridge

[DJM Dave]

I know the prototype remains vertical, it has to as the overhead doesn’t move, I just don’t expect this to feature on the model.

Roy

I would ;-)

[Roy Langridge]

I would ;-)

Enough said :-)

[Crewlisle]

On the real thing there are plenty of things on which the model compromises. I think the pan my be one. I would rather have an accurate looking pan that tilts than a clunky looking one that stays vertical.

 

Roy

 

Roy,

 

I am confident that DJM will give us an accurate scale pan or as close as possible.  Hornby have rushed their Class 87 & obviously did not have time to design an all metal BW pan.  Surely if you are paying over £600 for an iconic model like the APT you will want to actually run it?  Yes, there probably will be minor compromises but certainly not like the clumpy pans on the original Hornby Class 86s, which many of us have replaced with correct Sommerfeldt ones!

 

Peter

[Dagworth]

I would ;-)

Being as mine is going to be running Pan Up on Ravensclyffe the pan needs to stay vertical!

 

Andi

[Titan]

Whether a pan tilts or not has nothing to do with the accuracy of the pan itself, as whether the base it sits on moves or not does not put any significant constraint on the design. I have replaced the Hornby pan on my APT with a much more accurate Sommerfeldt one, the only issue is that it is HO rather than 00, but it was a direct swap with no modification required whatsoever, and still stays vertical when the train tilts, which is just as well as it actually runs on the OLE and would fall off the wire on corners if it did not!

Edited February 3, 2018 by Titan

[Dixie Dean]

Dave, is the pantograph going to be the same one as on the Class 92, i.e. the BWHS pantograph?

[Fenman]

... I have replaced the Hornby pan on my APT with a much more accurate Sommerfeldt one, the only issue is that it is HO rather than 00, but it was a direct swap with no modification required whatsoever, and still stays vertical when the train tilts ...

Can you imagine the howled outrage if Hornby released a 00 model with an H0 part?

 

Surely the point is that any model will have one compromise or another (not least because materials don’t scale). What is acceptable to you may not be to someone else, and vice versa.

 

Paul

[DJM Dave]

Sorry for the late replies chaps, parents, illness, and Stafford show this weekend all leading into almost the ‘perfect storm’ for not being on line as much as I can and have been, so I’ve popped on in the limited time I’ve had and answered questions where possible in the free time available.

 

Parents are better for now, i’m glad to say, so I can divert more energies back towards the daytime ‘job’ and answering more of the questions queued up, so again bear with me and this will happen over the next 24 hours.

 

I’m awaiting Sommerfeldt getting back to me on a pantograph I can use on the APT, and it would be easier to buy in built this very respected metal sprung panto’s.

 

Keeping it horizontal to the wire when the car is tilting is actually quite easy in model form at at present the design follows the real thing quite closely.

 

More in the week as I clear this backlog on here and other threads.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Dixie Dean]

... I’m awaiting Sommerfeldt getting back to me on a pantograph I can use on the APT, and it would be easier to buy in built this very respected metal sprung panto’s ...

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Why not just use the same one's as on the Class 92.  That's what I would prefer, albeit on a platform that allows them to stay in one place when the train tilts as per the prototype.

[Dagworth]

Why not just use the same one's as on the Class 92.  That's what I would prefer, albeit on a platform that allows them to stay in one place when the train tilts as per the prototype.

Because they are not the same?

 

Andi

[Dixie Dean]

Because they are not the same?

 

Andi

 

I've been looking at photos on the net, Andi, and there are definitely APTs out there with a BWHS pantograph.  There are also some with the older, Stone Faiverley (I think) type also fitted to the earlier electric locos.  I would prefer the BWHS one?  Andi, what's your thoughts?  Dave, what are you thinking?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Dixie Dean