Hornby 2018 - the full announcements

[royaloak]

I’m with you both here and couldn’t agree more. As you’ll find I keep mentioning, I was hoping that Hornby would have done the Class 153 in the FGW ‘local lines’ livery. I know they are all GWR green now but considering how many years the livery was applied to these units, I thought it may have been a popular choice! Also, I would have put good money down on there being a plain red DB tug announced...

Hornby (and Bachmann) have previously stated that the Local Lines livery is too complicated to print, when I mentioned the Realtrack 143s they went a bit quiet.

 

EDit-

Coryton (and no doubt others) made the same point a few pages ago.

It does sometimes take a bit of keeping up with on here.

Edited January 12, 2018 by royaloak

[MikeParkin65]

. I think it is safe to assume that having been beaten to the punch on such popular subjects as the 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 33, 35, 37, 47, 52, 55, 66, they were effectively shut out of many of the potentially suitable higher volume sales in diesel traction.

 

 

I would argue of that list there is room in the mass market (ie decent sales potential) for higher quality renditions of classes 20, 37, 47, 55 and 66. In fact Bachmann seem to see sales potential in classes 24 and 25 as well despite both their own current versions and the SLW 24. Hornby have the advantage of having TTS available as well which is very effective in diesel models and allows them to extract a premium at minimal cost I suspect.

[classy52]

I would argue of that list there is room in the mass market (ie decent sales potential) for higher quality renditions of classes 20, 37, 47, 55 and 66. In fact Bachmann seem to see sales potential in classes 24 and 25 as well despite both their own current versions and the SLW 24. Hornby have the advantage of having TTS available as well which is very effective in diesel models and allows them to extract a premium at minimal cost I suspect.

 

Sort of agree but not sure if Hornby want to go up against Bachmann's 37, 47 & 66 which are pretty good and the forthcoming re-tooled 20 unless they pull off something special in these models such as extra quality detail, build or livery standards.

I do think Hornby have a staple in their Class 08/31/50/56/60/67/HST models thus would like to see them expand that with re-tooled Class 86, 91 or perhaps Mk3/Mk4 DVT to build on what they already have in the D&E market.

Obviously the ship has sailed for Hornby on the Class 90 & 92.

 

Edit: I suppose Hornby could have a go at a new re-tooled Class 73 to go up against Dapol's so-so offering?

Edited January 12, 2018 by classy52

[mow]

Engine Shed's demise might be premature. 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/stop-press-the-Hornby-2018-range-launch

[Legend]

Good news .

[newbryford]

Hornby (and Bachmann) have previously stated that the Local Lines livery is too complicated to print, when I mentioned the Realtrack 143s they went a bit quiet.

 

 

 

Surprised at Bachmann say the Local Lines is difficult to do, after doing 66s with complex liveries such as the two London Transport 66718/721, kid's 66720 and Kernow's 66709 Sorrento. And that's on a ribbed surface.

 

Cheers,

MIck

['CHARD]

 And that's on a ribbed surface.

 

 

 

Extra customer satisfaction?  

[brushman47544]

Sort of agree but not sure if Hornby want to go up against Bachmann's 37, 47 & 66 which are pretty good and the forthcoming re-tooled 20 unless they pull off something special in these models such as extra quality detail, build or livery standards.

I do think Hornby have a staple in their Class 08/31/50/56/60/67/HST models thus would like to see them expand that with re-tooled Class 86, 91 or perhaps Mk3/Mk4 DVT to build on what they already have in the D&E market.

Obviously the ship has sailed for Hornby on the Class 90 & 92.

 

Edit: I suppose Hornby could have a go at a new re-tooled Class 73 to go up against Dapol's so-so offering?

 

I seem to recall a discussion some time ago about Hornby effectively duplicating Bachmann's Mk1 coaches and reply being that there are some "must have's" in a Range. In the D&E field, that to me would be an 08, 37, 47 and 66 for diesels, plus an 86 on the electric loco side based on longevity and livery options. Arguably Hornby has all these, although the Limby 37 in my view is pretty awful compared to the Bachmann version. Other than the newer 08 which is the best currently available, the Limby 47 and 66 and Hornby 86 are acceptable if sold at Railroad prices. So in Hornby's current financial climate, investing in new tooling in these models - bearing in mind there are others available - is probably unwise.

Edited January 12, 2018 by brushman47544

[Legend]

I seem to recall a discussion some time ago about Hornby effectively duplicating Bachmann's Mk1 coaches and reply being that there are some "must have's" in a Range. In the D&E field, that to me would be an 08, 37, 47 and 66 for diesels, plus an 86 on the electric loco side based on longevity and livery options. Arguably Hornby has all these, although the Limby 37 in my view is pretty awful compared to the Bachmann version. Other than the newer 08 which is the best currently available, the Limby 47 and 66 and Hornby 86 are acceptable if sold at Railroad prices. So in Hornby's current financial climate, investing in new tooling in these models - bearing in mind there are others available - is probably unwise.

It would only be worth doing if it knocked spots off everything else at a reasonable price. Probably better looking at other subjects I’d say

[Dunsignalling]

It would only be worth doing if it knocked spots off everything else at a reasonable price. Probably better looking at other subjects I’d say

Quite, but the problem is that, insofar as diesel locos are concerned, there are precious few subjects that haven't been covered at least once already.

 

John

Edited January 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[classy52]

I seem to recall a discussion some time ago about Hornby effectively duplicating Bachmann's Mk1 coaches and reply being that there are some "must have's" in a Range. In the D&E field, that to me would be an 08, 37, 47 and 66 for diesels, plus an 86 on the electric loco side based on longevity and livery options. Arguably Hornby has all these, although the Limby 37 in my view is pretty awful compared to the Bachmann version. Other than the newer 08 which is the best currently available, the Limby 47 and 66 and Hornby 86 are acceptable if sold at Railroad prices. So in Hornby's current financial climate, investing in new tooling in these models - bearing in mind there are others available - is probably unwise.

 

For super detailed models the only financially viable options for Hornby would be a new re-tooled Class 86 (yes due to longevity and liveries), maybe a Class 91 and at a stretch the Class 73 to compete with Dapol whose version hasn't set the world on fire.

Other than that agree it would be financially unwise to try to tread over Bachmann's Class 37, 47 and 66 or even the future 20, all the other super detailed Hornby offering's are pretty much spot on but they need to work on providing extra or further liveries on their existing D&E models.

[MikeParkin65]

For super detailed models the only financially viable options for Hornby would be a new re-tooled Class 86 (yes due to longevity and liveries), maybe a Class 91 and at a stretch the Class 73 to compete with Dapol whose version hasn't set the world on fire.

Other than that agree it would be financially unwise to try to tread over Bachmann's Class 37, 47 and 66 or even the future 20, all the other super detailed Hornby offering's are pretty much spot on but they need to work on providing extra or further liveries on their existing D&E models.

I can't speak for everyone but I do know that I would buy top notch Hornby renditions of 20 ,37, 47 and 55 and that these would supplement models from other manufacturers I already own. Also 20, 37 and 47 have multiple possible liveries without duplicating anything else already produced. 

[Coryton]

I seem to recall a discussion some time ago about Hornby effectively duplicating Bachmann's Mk1 coaches and reply being that there are some "must have's" in a Range. In the D&E field, that to me would be an 08, 37, 47 and 66 for diesels, plus an 86 on the electric loco side based on longevity and livery options. Arguably Hornby has all these, although the Limby 37 in my view is pretty awful compared to the Bachmann version. Other than the newer 08 which is the best currently available, the Limby 47 and 66 and Hornby 86 are acceptable if sold at Railroad prices. So in Hornby's current financial climate, investing in new tooling in these models - bearing in mind there are others available - is probably unwise.

 

The argument I saw was that Mk 1's were a "must have" for train sets; that wouldn't apply so much to locomotives.

[royaloak]

Surprised at Bachmann say the Local Lines is difficult to do, after doing 66s with complex liveries such as the two London Transport 66718/721, kid's 66720 and Kernow's 66709 Sorrento. And that's on a ribbed surface.

 

Cheers,

MIck

When I asked them about a 150/2 in Local Lines that is what they said, although that was a while ago.

Edited January 12, 2018 by royaloak

[Shoey]

When I asked them about a 150/2 in Local Lines that is what they said, although that was a while ago.

I had also asked them a while ago regarding a 150/2 but surely the fade isn’t any more extreme than that of the DRS compass logo?

[Shoey]

Picture of the DRS fade.

 

PS - I have no idea how the photos of the Local Lines DMU’s got there...... hehe

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Released around the same time, over just a couple of years, when they also released the Class 08/09, 31 and 56.

IIRC the 60 was released the same year as the 08/09, or was it one of the others?

Hornby's first D&E models built to modern standards were received with deserved high praise and the company declared their commitment to doing modern prototypes, saying they'd be releasing similarly high quality new D&E models, every year from that point on.

That didn't last long.

 I have done a count of the D+E items Hornby have brought to market since the 08/(30/31)/50/56/60/HST group and find that there appear to have been 9 all new D+E introductions to their range that have gone on sale, with the announced 87 and 800 to come. Looks they have been averaging one a year to me since their first all-new D+E tooling following the move to China, which must have been released about 2003 or 2004?. Mostly not diesel locos of the classes which some seem to want Hornby to duplicate other manufacturers existing products, but instead sensibly almost all subjects with no competing RTR model available.

[jjb1970]

Don't forget the class 395 Javelin, the was genuinely modern image.

[Jammy2305]

How would you know if BR had greater atmosphere if you didn't live through it?

 

I would argue that everyone has ties to a particular era and that is one that they are living in or have lived in. Most younger modellers are not going to have the time or inclination to do a mass of research to find out what trains where running where and when if they didn't experience it firsthand.

 

By working alongside people who did live through it, hearing their stories, watching old videos and doing research. If we take St Blazey in the late 1980's, for example, you'd find a fleet of 37/5's, 50's, 08's, countless types of wagon catering for different variations of clay traffic, mainline passenger services next door at Par station and local service to support them. Countless hours of shunting too. And what is there today? HST's, local DMU's and the occasional 66 on a freight operation that is nothing like it once was? Equally, let's look at my local area of Norwich. Once a hub of activity, but now a shadow of it's former self. True, we are lucky to have class 37's on the short set, but the set is top and tailed. there are no loco run-rounds and no shunting. If anything fails, it's caped, whereas BR could easily find something to replace the failure. As I said, the scene had far more atmosphere and far more going for it...

 

That's not to say no one should model the present scene. It is each to their own. But you can understand why younger modellers would chose not to.

[Coryton]

By working alongside people who did live through it, hearing their stories, watching old videos and doing research. If we take St Blazey in the late 1980's, for example, you'd find a fleet of 37/5's, 50's, 08's, countless types of wagon catering for different variations of clay traffic, mainline passenger services next door at Par station and local service to support them. Countless hours of shunting too. And what is there today? HST's, local DMU's and the occasional 66 on a freight operation that is nothing like it once was? Equally, let's look at my local area of Norwich. Once a hub of activity, but now a shadow of it's former self. True, we are lucky to have class 37's on the short set, but the set is top and tailed. there are no loco run-rounds and no shunting. If anything fails, it's caped, whereas BR could easily find something to replace the failure. As I said, the scene had far more atmosphere and far more going for it...

 

That's not to say no one should model the present scene. It is each to their own. But you can understand why younger modellers would chose not to.

 

I suppose "atmosphere" isn't a very well defined word, but I'd define that as "variety" or "interest" rather than atmosphere.

 

Something I like about today's railways is the fact that they are no longer in decline, at least so far as passenger services are concerned.

 

Getting back vaguely on-topic, I wonder if there's any chance of a Railroad level 800, though I've no idea if it would sell well enough to be worth it and to make up for cannibalised sales of the current models.

[gc4946]

The class 395 Javelin was made in both full-fat and Railroad versions.

 

I think a simpler train-set or Railroad version of the 800 could be released once (or if depending on franchise issues) Virgin Trains reveal their squadron livery for their Azumas.

[159220]

I too have used the line of argument that Realtrack via Rapido got the FGW 'local lines' done right on the class 143. But, no doubt when you are, as I have been told, it is impossible on other models. There is a reasonable point that due to the far higher surface area the fade from dark blue to light blue would cover on a 153, 150/2 or 158 (well excluded the 158 as it has not been under production for most the time of local lines) would produce too many errors and thus the rate of rejects would be too high. Thus an uneconomical model to produce. Saying that though, good old Tampo printing has 'many' degrees of dot fading, see Dapol's class 68 in DRS. It works on the 143 where it does not else where, simply because the 143 is small and areas of fade tiny. But...one cannot help wonder, now Hornby have this 'water slide' technology (sounds awfully like a decal), could they water slide the 'local lines' onto a class 153? Though I am sure technically possible, one glaring issue is all the rivots on the class 153 body! 

 

Surprised at Bachmann say the Local Lines is difficult to do, after doing 66s with complex liveries such as the two London Transport 66718/721, kid's 66720 and Kernow's 66709 Sorrento. And that's on a ribbed surface.

 

Cheers,

MIck

 

When I asked them about a 150/2 in Local Lines that is what they said, although that was a while ago.

 

I had also asked them a while ago regarding a 150/2 but surely the fade isn’t any more extreme than that of the DRS compass logo?

 

 

 

Sorry, I think you must of missed my post on #627.

 

Yes the DRS Compass is a tampo printed 'fade' but (underlined and bold), is a three fade tampo change, on a very small area and is rather crude. Thus it just barely works. Of course, my post #627 also mentioned Dapol's superb efforts on the tampo printed green fade on the DRS 68. So there is a technique to the tampo printing which in theory could work. But the tampo could not be effective along the long body of a class 158 or 150/2 or 153. 

 

As for Bachmann's ink jet printing on the 66s. Yes it is superb on the ribs, but notice the body sides where there is fading (66709) is only on a straight side without other doors etc in the way. Getting a consistent fade of the darker blue to lighter blue along the entire body side is a challenge to both the tampo print and ink jetting printing methods. 

 

I would thus suggest, the local lines liveries are not beyond the technology both Hornby and Bachmann have, but the rejects would be high and thus making 4000 units for a main production run is just an order too big. I am sure they would suit a limited edition, but how willing of a premium price are you willing to pay for it? I'd pay up to £1000 for a Wessex Trains 150/2. But for the local lines, not as much. 

[jjb1970]

On the subject of the past and atmosphere, I think it is very easy to look at the past through rose tinted glasses.

 

I grew up in the BR blue era going into sectorisation and there was a lot to like about the railways of that era. Plenty of locomotives (both in terms of numbers and variety), you could visit depots and stabling points and see more locomotives than you could shake a stick at, trains travelled far and wide, there were all sorts of cross country routes (I remember trains like the European) and the freight scene was more interesting.

 

On the other hand services were less frequent than they are now, many trains were a bit shabby, almost half of each typical coach was like a mobile ashtray, intercity 70 seats in the later Mk.2 and Mk.3 coaches were dire. There wasn't the sort of real time train information we take for granted today (few stations had departure boards, platform screens hadn't been invented and if you went to a quieter station there was nobody to ask and no announcements) not to mention the general run down feeling of parts of the network (how many remember Marylebone in the 1980's?).

 

On the whole if offered the choice of todays railway or the railways from my youth, even though it'd be nice to bring back all those classic locomotive classes I'd take the railway of today every time.

[Coryton]

Sorry, I think you must of missed my post on #627.

 

Yes the DRS Compass is a tampo printed 'fade' but (underlined and bold), is a three fade tampo change, on a very small area and is rather crude. Thus it just barely works. Of course, my post #627 also mentioned Dapol's superb efforts on the tampo printed green fade on the DRS 68. So there is a technique to the tampo printing which in theory could work. But the tampo could not be effective along the long body of a class 158 or 150/2 or 153. 

 

As for Bachmann's ink jet printing on the 66s. Yes it is superb on the ribs, but notice the body sides where there is fading (66709) is only on a straight side without other doors etc in the way. Getting a consistent fade of the darker blue to lighter blue along the entire body side is a challenge to both the tampo print and ink jetting printing methods. 

 

I would thus suggest, the local lines liveries are not beyond the technology both Hornby and Bachmann have, but the rejects would be high and thus making 4000 units for a main production run is just an order too big. I am sure they would suit a limited edition, but how willing of a premium price are you willing to pay for it? I'd pay up to £1000 for a Wessex Trains 150/2. But for the local lines, not as much. 

 

I think it's clear what the problem is here. The TOCs just aren't paying enough attention to choosing liveries that are practical to reproduce in 00.

 

Something to get right for future franchises?

[classy52]

On the subject of the past and atmosphere, I think it is very easy to look at the past through rose tinted glasses.

 

I grew up in the BR blue era going into sectorisation and there was a lot to like about the railways of that era. Plenty of locomotives (both in terms of numbers and variety), you could visit depots and stabling points and see more locomotives than you could shake a stick at, trains travelled far and wide, there were all sorts of cross country routes (I remember trains like the European) and the freight scene was more interesting.

 

On the other hand services were less frequent than they are now, many trains were a bit shabby, almost half of each typical coach was like a mobile ashtray, intercity 70 seats in the later Mk.2 and Mk.3 coaches were dire. There wasn't the sort of real time train information we take for granted today (few stations had departure boards, platform screens hadn't been invented and if you went to a quieter station there was nobody to ask and no announcements) not to mention the general run down feeling of parts of the network (how many remember Marylebone in the 1980's?).

 

On the whole if offered the choice of todays railway or the railways from my youth, even though it'd be nice to bring back all those classic locomotive classes I'd take the railway of today every time.

 

Totally agree and absolutely love today's freight/engineering & passenger scene with the heritage traction mixed with the new with all the different liveries thus for the life of me can't imagine why a youngster would ignore this and go and collect or model trains from the distant past, unless he or she is heavily influenced by an ageing dad or grampa who just can't let go...BR Blue era was the business son, I was shunting in my sleep and forget about today's pussy railways with all those fancy colourful loco's going nowhere (old man voice) 

I think we've beaten this one to death now.

Edited January 12, 2018 by classy52