Daily Mail article not good press for Kent and East Sussex

[hayfield]

Trying for a minute to steer clear of the sub-subject of newspapers ........

 

A plan like this does raise all sorts of potential conflicts of interest, and the deeply challenging subject of how, or even whether, those conflicting interests can be resolved or balanced.

 

Much as I am a railway fanatic, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that a preserved railway, or the extension of one, is necessarily A Good Thing that trumps all other interests.

 

Good cases can be made where, for instance, the railway can be used to foster access to places like national parks, or busy seaside towns, while keeping cars off the road, a 'park and ride' effectively, or where it will draw trade into an area that is otherwise short of trade. But, even then, things aren't always 'conflict of interest free', as anyone who has looked at the history of the Welsh Highland reopening will be aware.

 

It's a long time since I lived in East Sussex, although we still visit a couple of times each year and spent an excellent week in the locality last summer, so I'm not 'up to the minute' on the local factors of the KESR extension, but I would question whether 'getting back to Robertsbridge' will greatly benefit the locality, because:

 

- I can't see it being a huge factor in keeping cars off the local roads, unless it is going to include a stack of car-parking at/near Robertsbridge, so that people can use it as a way of accessing Bodiam and Tenterden from the A21;

 

- it might well increase the total number of visitors to the locality, by making day-trips from large population centres by public transport possible (it is currently a bit of a bind to access the area by combination of rail and bus), but the question has to be asked whether that is a good thing, or not, given that Bodiam and Tenterden are both bordering on 'honey-traps', and get pretty busy already;

 

- the area definitely isn't short of trade in a general sense; it is a prosperous district that is easy to access by car, and Tenterden seems to have burst-forth in terms of busy-ness in the past thirty years, and especially since HS1 made it 'an inner suburb of London'. I'd say that the place that is short of enough trade to yield deep prosperity is Hastings.

 

Doubtless these things are the topics of detailed assessments and much head-scratching, and will factor in final decisions.

 

I haven't mentioned any positives to railway preservation, because my dour view is that England, especially this particular corner of England, has possibly more of that than is supportable in the long-term anyway. The Bluebell, RHDR, and Spa Valley are "rivals" in easy striking distance, so we railway enthusiasts do have plenty of scope to indulge our hobby, and it probably wouldn't be tenable to try to advance an 'education' argument.

 

All of which having been said, I do hope it happens ....... it is so much more pleasant to have a grand day out to a preserved railway where the entire trip is by rail than it is to go by car.

 

 

Its in an affluent area, and Tenterton does survive in its present state as a tourist destination.

 

Car usage would increase if the line develops, its not designed to reduce traffic but a larger tourist attraction.

 

Romney to a certain extent is a different type of attraction with both it and the Bluebell being some distance away.

 

It could be said that as this is a preserved light railway rather than a branchline of a main line, it is important that we preserve and develop the site as its an important part of our railway history.

 

The level crossing is seen by some as a benefit in traffic calming

 

As you say there are two sides of each argument, if it is fine to reinstate land to a previous use to benefit fauna and flora, then reinstating the line would benefit local wildlife habitats

 

If what was said about one objector who was wanting to develop his farm land into housing, its a bit off he then objects to others with their own developments. 

[hayfield]

 

I do not object to people holding opposing views - but do expect them to be founded on fact not prejudices. 

 

 

 

Very few people have no prejudices, and anyone who says they have none is probably fooling themselves. However we are talking about extending a preserved railway line and according to some this has been reported by numerous news outlets, quite often peoples objections are not based on facts, but they also are not based on prejudices but the persons understanding of the situation. Now there are a mixture of both supporters and their support to either of the sides may be based on opinions not facts

[brushman47544]

Has the Daily Mail always been this bad?

 

I understand from family members older than me that it was ok when it was a broadsheet.

[Reorte]

Very few people have no prejudices, and anyone who says they have none is probably fooling themselves. However we are talking about extending a preserved railway line and according to some this has been reported by numerous news outlets, quite often peoples objections are not based on facts, but they also are not based on prejudices but the persons understanding of the situation. Now there are a mixture of both supporters and their support to either of the sides may be based on opinions not facts

"Prejudices" aren't necessarily an invalid thing to base views on, or at least non-factual bases aren't invalid. Too often people start harping on about "facts" when what's really going on is a clash of values, and you can't prove one set of values more valid than another, yet they're ultimately what drives someone's opinion about whether something's worth doing or worth preventing. If something pushes the world in a direction you value then it's a goal entirely worth pursuing. If it pushes it in the opposite direction it's something worth opposing. Those are the ultimate drivers. Factual considerations only come in when deciding how best to pursue those goals (you won't get anywhere doing so without a good grasp of the facts), and whether or not a particular thing helps or hinders them.

 

Any fact-based argument where the issue is really a clash of values is making assumptions about worth that the other party may simply not share and too often comes across as trying to claim "my values are definitively right." At best you can sometimes find commonly shared values that almost everyone has.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Reorte

[Edwardian]

Having read this thread, it gives the impression that some UK papers aren't worth the paper they're printed on and it could be put to better uses so where do you get the news these days. Before coming to the US, my family used to read the Daily Express; I read it mostly for Giles and his cartoons! I didn't think it was that in those days.

 

A good job you don't live over here as its very hard to find a good newspaper, some better than others, but I read the BBC website and the World Service on TV.

 

Yes, we have the Daily Hate, but you poor blighters have Fox News!

[Fat Controller]

I understand from family members older than me that it was ok when it was a broadsheet.

Apart from its flirtation with Hitler..

[Edwardian]

It’s always worth remembering that the Daily Mail sells papers by making people fear, loath and/or detest other people, or, if they already fear, loath and detest one another, then by reinforcing that fear, loathing and detestation.

 

 

 

plus ça change ....

[Nearholmer]

The first paragraph does make clear that the paper's euroscepticism is a comparatively recent position, though.

[lanchester]

In fairness, the Daily Telegraph picture editor does seem to have a soft spot for Flying Scotsman/Tornado/The Jacobean/the North York Moors Rly - and surprisingly often gets the caption more or less right.

 

So I suppose he/she will now be blackballed from the NUJ.

Since when did any UK "newspaper" report any railway-related topic in a way that didn't display some or all of:

 

Absence of balance.

 

Contempt.

 

Ignorance of the subject. 

 

Absence of research. 

 

Come to think of it, that seems to describe Daily Mail coverage of almost everything. 

 

And, yes, I do read it from time to time just to check it's really as bad as I remember..........

 

John

[Nearholmer]

'Prejudice", I believe, literally means to form a judgement in advance (of being in possession of the full facts).

 

At one level, it is an essential survival tool, which is why we are all so good at it; all the advanced-chimps who weren't good at it got killed before they could breed. In a 'survivalist' situation waiting to obtain full possession of the facts ('yes, that vaguely mottled thing in the shadows definitely is part of an enormous lion.') can simply take too long to be a good idea.

 

It probably even helped at the 'early-tribal' stage in life, when it wasn't a good idea to hang about too long pondering whether or not those strangely-dressed new blokes were potential friends, or intent on nicking your ox/ass/wife/parsnips etc.

 

But, without a bit of risk-taking, giving the benefit of the doubt etc., even basic trading could never have occurred ....... you don't want to whack a bloke over the head first, and find out that he was about to offer you two good pigs for a bushel of your oats afterwards.

 

Where prejudice is deeply bad news now, is that it does descend, if not always to a whack over the head, but to isolationism, missed opportunity, and general miserableness, on both sides.

 

And, in 99.999% of cases, there is no b.....y excuse for it. Prejudice is simple bone-idleness, given that, for most subjects there is ample information freely available, and when it comes to people, the usual subjects of it, they are often there to be talked with.

 

And, reinforcing what genuinely is a persons 'base instinct', by serving them with writing and imagery that do nothing more than provoke or reinforce prejudice isn't 'fair game', it is irresponsible trouble-making.

 

Now, back to the peace of rural East Sussex.

[Reorte]

'Prejudice", I believe, literally means to form a judgement in advance (of being in possession of the full facts).

Yet even with those facts people will sometimes label something as prejudice or having non-fact-based-opinions if the other person doesn't come to the same conclusion as them.

[Steamport Southport]

What's worth remembering about the "Black Shirts" article was it was 1934, five years before the war and at a time when the governments stance was that "Mr Hitler is a good egg" and a man they could do business with. Things change quickly in politics. 

 

 

What any of this has to do with a few NIMBYs in the South East I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

Personally I have no affection for the Daily Mail (although it is true that their work in the Stephen Lawrence case was a credit to the press). I have no time at all for racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia (or any other sectarian hate) or xenophobia in general. I find such behaviours to be truly reprehensible, and have personal reasons why that might have particular resonance in my case. I've got no time for nationalism as a political concept, although I suspect my own libertarian tendencies are probably not that widely shared. For all that, I think it is too easy to make the Daily Mail into some sort of talisman for everything people hate. Racism and xenophobia is neither a right wing nor left wing trait (despite what people may want to believe), these traits are widely held (more widely so than I suspect most of us would like to believe) across the political, ethnic and social spectrum. And they're certainly not unique to the British (or English), in my experience we're no more xenophobic than any other nation I've visited and in many ways considerably less than some I've visited. If it we could segregate unpleasant people into a nice easy box it might be useful, but such an act in itself would probably be highly prejudiced and unjust, and it is worth remembering that not all people with unpleasant prejudices are prejudiced in all things. Maybe I'm the only one who knows people who inhabit the right-on-o-sphere who have deeply unpleasant views about certain groups of people. And if poor judgement at times is a crime then we're all criminals. Which I suppose is a long winded way of saying people need to think about a lot more than just one news paper or one world view when considering hate and xenophobia. I've seen stuff printed in all of the news papers which is pretty shameful.

 

On the subject of the railway extension, I hope it goes ahead and don't support NIMBY-ism but neither can I truly condemn the people either.

[hayfield]

What's worth remembering about the "Black Shirts" article was it was 1934, five years before the war and at a time when the governments stance was that "Mr Hitler is a good egg" and a man they could do business with. Things change quickly in politics. 

 

 

What any of this has to do with a few NIMBYs in the South East I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

And at a time when values were totally different. Did not our country befriend and support Stalin ? 

 

But what's all this got to do with the K&ESR ? Is the Daily Mail buying it ?

[lmsforever]

Please can we get back on subject, info locally about whats happening with this problem and so what if the article was in the Mail many read it and it could have been in the Daily Worker .There are to many snide comments about the Mail other papers do equally bad pieces so it does not matter were it was only it was printed.Can we go back to the railway problem that's what I started this thread for.

[Guest]

Please can we get back on subject, info locally about whats happening with this problem and so what if the article was in the Mail many read it and it could have been in the Daily Worker .There are to many snide comments about the Mail other papers do equally bad pieces so it does not matter were it was only it was printed.Can we go back to the railway problem that's what I started this thread for.

 

Might be an idea to go back and edit the first post to remove "Daily Mail" from the title.

Red rag to a bull, as they say.

[lmsforever]

Why that's were the article was ,?

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[009 micro modeller]

How have the local papers covered the story?

[bill_schmidt1]

I can see why the two farm owners are unhappy about it but I think the way they are trying any old excuse its pretty pathetic. I'd have more respect for them if they just said they didn't want to give up the land they now own.

As has been said one of the farmers is currently seeking planning permission to build some 100 odd houses on one of his other farms yet most of their argument has been about the effect to the countryside, environment and the greed of the KESR trying to make more money. They also say it will effect the way the work their farm, yet some of the land they own isn't used for farming. Since the building of the houses on one of the farmers land has come to light there has been a shift in their argument over to the proposed level crossing on the A21. They say it will cause more traffic problems, is dangerous etc but again I haven't seen them campaigning for people to cut down on car usage or making people more aware of level crossing safety (and there are a already a few other crossing in the area). 

Any argument that is put forward for the railway they just shoot down and don't seem to be prepared to listen. They have a Faceache page which just seems to be the two families and friends arguing with anyone that wants the railway.

As I said I can see why they are unhappy but they don't seem to be doing themselves any favours either..

[ChrisH-UK]

What's worth remembering about the "Black Shirts" article was it was 1934, five years before the war and at a time when the governments stance was that "Mr Hitler is a good egg" and a man they could do business with. Things change quickly in politics. 

 

 

What any of this has to do with a few NIMBYs in the South East I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Godwin's Law?

[Nearholmer]

Even I, among the worst offenders, wonders whether this should be split into two threads, one bout the KESR, another about The Bagshot Weekly Chronicle.

[Reorte]

I can see why the two farm owners are unhappy about it but I think the way they are trying any old excuse its pretty pathetic. I'd have more respect for them if they just said they didn't want to give up the land they now own.

 

As has been said one of the farmers is currently seeking planning permission to build some 100 odd houses on one of his other farms yet most of their argument has been about the effect to the countryside, environment and the greed of the KESR trying to make more money. They also say it will effect the way the work their farm, yet some of the land they own isn't used for farming. Since the building of the houses on one of the farmers land has come to light there has been a shift in their argument over to the proposed level crossing on the A21. They say it will cause more traffic problems, is dangerous etc but again I haven't seen them campaigning for people to cut down on car usage or making people more aware of level crossing safety (and there are a already a few other crossing in the area). 

 

Any argument that is put forward for the railway they just shoot down and don't seem to be prepared to listen. They have a Faceache page which just seems to be the two families and friends arguing with anyone that wants the railway.

 

As I said I can see why they are unhappy but they don't seem to be doing themselves any favours either..

It's the wanting to build a load of houses, which will have far more of an impact than the railway, that just makes it look hypocritical. Otherwise I'd be sympathetic (I usually am towards such issues), although not necessarily agreeing in this particular case. There's a whole thread on here about people on level crossings but bringing it up sounds like trying to find reasons rather than actually caring. Without the hypocrisy I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with them shooting down any argument in favour either (or at least wouldn't regard it as a flaw in their position) - it's the clash of values I mentioned earlier at work.

[009 micro modeller]

Regarding the crossing, will it be a full blown one with barriers etc or one like the Leighton Buzzard railway where the train stops and is then flagged across?

[Nearholmer]

https://www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/hundreds-object-to-a21-crossing-plans-1-8494149

 

In a newspaper that might cause less controversy!

 

This, on the other hand, is very, very worrying! It could so easily have been a DMU, rather than an EMU http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3174175/Is-Road-Runner-amazing-sight-greeted-motorists-escaped-emu-ran-A21-East-Sussex.html

Edited May 15, 2018 by Nearholmer