HELJAN UNVEILS ‘OO’ GAUGE 25/3 AND ‘ETHEL’ FOR 2019

[Zunnan]

18 hours ago, 25901 said:

 

If there is no taper and this 25 is on level ground then explain why the cab corner is not near the ground. From another pic of the other end I have seen also shows the far end not touching the ground too.

 

I'd venture that the locomotive is not on the ground, there is also a hefty gap below the tank. Measuring the real thing should confirm, but if the 'derailed' Rat were truly on the ground the cab front would be much closer, there is no way that the taper is that pronounced. I barely noticed a taper on the real things, its there, but its subtle.

 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/25derbyprod63.jpg

 

I know its 25/1 under construction in this image, but look at the kink midway along the rainstrip of the locomotive bottom right. There is an unmistakable deflection where cab meets body, indicating a taper, but it is so subtle that it probably amounts to a few inches per side; certainly no more than 6" on overall width, I'd reckon considerably less. A plank parallel to the body of a 1:1 Rat and measure the gap at the front would tell all that's needed to know.

[royaloak]

Why do manufacturers insist on modelling the multiple working equipment but make it 4 times bigger than it really is, the Bachmann 40 is the same, it looks bloody stupid, if they cant do it right then I would rather they didnt bother.

[25901]

2 hours ago, Zunnan said:

 

A plank parallel to the body of a 1:1 Rat and measure the gap at the front would tell all that's needed to know.

 

All in hand, my mate has just load up 25185 for it's holidays so will try that on 25191 when he is next working on it

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, royaloak said:

Why do manufacturers insist on modelling the multiple working equipment but make it 4 times bigger than it really is, the Bachmann 40 is the same, it looks bloody stupid, if they cant do it right then I would rather they didnt bother.

 

At least they have the plug at the right end!

 

Phil

[Swindon 123]

I also saw that "25 on its side" demonstration at Stratford in 1983, and took some photos. I've been playing with one of them and came up with this, which in my book shows the cabside does have a taper.

 

Paul J.

[cheesysmith]

The question is not if the taper is there, more how much is the taper, and does it differ between the locos built at different locations? 

 

[YesTor]

On 27/04/2019 at 20:35, robertcwp said:

 

 

IMG_0480_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

 

That bodyside grill looks a bit crude!

Edited April 30, 2019 by YesTor

[The Ghost of IKB]

On 30/04/2019 at 17:48, YesTor said:

 

 

That bodyside grill looks a bit crude!

Agreed. As on the 33, they would be better moulded if this is the best etched grille they can source.

[YesTor]

7 hours ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

Agreed. As on the 33, they would be better moulded if this is the best etched grille they can source.

 

Totally! I have avoided buying any of the retooled 33s simply due to the hideous grill that it now sports; and it doesn't look as though the [far superior] Shawplan grill will actually sit that well of the gaping hole the removal of the Heljan grill frame will leave.  While I appreciate it's off-topic, I'm happy to be demonstrated otherwise on that latter point.

[25901]

After a mate measured 25191 today I can say the internal measurement of the cab is 2640mm at the doors and 2590mm at the cab corners.

So there is a taper, it isn't much and end of discussion. Now back to the real thing for me.

[66738]

3 hours ago, 25901 said:

After a mate measured 25191 today I can say the internal measurement of the cab is 2640mm at the doors and 2590mm at the cab corners.

So there is a taper, it isn't much and end of discussion. Now back to the real thing for me.

Many thanks for that! So a 2.5cm taper each side of the body in 1:76 is going to be so slight, it will hardly be noticeable if they did or didn’t taper the ends. 

Must say when I had a good look at it at York a few weeks ago (Legomanbiffo stand), I was quite impressed by it. Certainly looks like a 25 to me!

66738

[25901]

The thing is that the type two's rounded corners seem to add to the tapered look. Take it from me that it is a bu@@er to re-plate due to the minor shape changes not just the main ones.

 

Was also at York and it does look good , as does the Sutton 24's.

Edited May 5, 2019 by 25901

[Ian J.]

delete

Edited May 5, 2019 by Ian J.

[P.C.M]

My 00 gauge Bachmann 25s have a slight taper, as does my Heljan O gauge class 25. So I am hoping this new model has.

 

Cheers Peter.

[61661]

On 02/05/2019 at 10:13, The Ghost of IKB said:

Agreed. As on the 33, they would be better moulded if this is the best etched grille they can source.

I agree, the etched mesh on this first 25 sample is crude and it certainly doesn't match the CAD we supplied. It isn't the best mesh available, there are much finer ones out there. Therefore I requested improved versions and they are on their way to the UK now. Can I clarify one thing though - this is the first sample off the tooling and should not be regarded as the finished article. It is a work in progress and we are aware of its shortcomings. I hope the next version will be a major improvement. If not, we will look at other options for achieving the correct appearance of those large grilles. 

 

With regard to the OO Class 33, I've also asked for a better solution for the large radiator grilles on future batches. Just as a little rudimentary market research, would buyers be offended if we returned to a more finely detailed moulded mesh? Or are we committed to etched grilles, despite the fact that (as various models have proved) it is a real challenge to find a scale mesh as fine as that seen on the real Sulzer Type 2/3s?  

[25901]

Hi Ben (61661)

 

Can you confirm that the Heljan 25 will not have the same mistake as others and that you will have individual red marker light and not having them both on at the same time. There is only one 25 that can have both on at the same time which is 25059 which has had a LED mod. fitted.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, 61661 said:

With regard to the OO Class 33, I've also asked for a better solution for the large radiator grilles on future batches. Just as a little rudimentary market research, would buyers be offended if we returned to a more finely detailed moulded mesh? Or are we committed to etched grilles, despite the fact that (as various models have proved) it is a real challenge to find a scale mesh as fine as that seen on the real Sulzer Type 2/3s?  

Personally I'd prefer finely detailed moulded mesh.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, 61661 said:

I agree, the etched mesh on this first 25 sample is crude and it certainly doesn't match the CAD we supplied. It isn't the best mesh available, there are much finer ones out there. Therefore I requested improved versions and they are on their way to the UK now. Can I clarify one thing though - this is the first sample off the tooling and should not be regarded as the finished article. It is a work in progress and we are aware of its shortcomings. I hope the next version will be a major improvement. If not, we will look at other options for achieving the correct appearance of those large grilles. 

 

With regard to the OO Class 33, I've also asked for a better solution for the large radiator grilles on future batches. Just as a little rudimentary market research, would buyers be offended if we returned to a more finely detailed moulded mesh? Or are we committed to etched grilles, despite the fact that (as various models have proved) it is a real challenge to find a scale mesh as fine as that seen on the real Sulzer Type 2/3s?  

I think we appreciate that the first sample is likely to be improved. Nevertheless (in my opinion) it does no harm for the experts to mention flaws just in case something is overlooked. The Shawplan grills have been mentioned but, for my part, I don’t mind whether the grills are etched or moulded – what matters is which looks better.

 

Excellent news that the 33’s grills will be improved.

[Ian J.]

When Lima did their moulded meshes in the 80s, it was very convincing, so it can be done well, though it is a compromise. What is probably true is that for a see through mesh to look right, the detail that's behind it has to be right too. I don't think any manufacturer could make a model with a good quality weighty chassis and still include authentic interior engine detail that could be seen through a mesh.

[The Ghost of IKB]

8 hours ago, Ian J. said:

When Lima did their moulded meshes in the 80s, it was very convincing, so it can be done well, though it is a compromise. What is probably true is that for a see through mesh to look right, the detail that's behind it has to be right too. I don't think any manufacturer could make a model with a good quality weighty chassis and still include authentic interior engine detail that could be seen through a mesh.

The accura 55 will have weighty chassis with engine detail seen through windows.  It just means using a denser metal than Mazak. I think accura are using tungsten?  Not many people would shed a tear to see the end of mazak.  

[Enterprisingwestern]

12 hours ago, 61661 said:

 

 

With regard to the OO Class 33, I've also asked for a better solution for the large radiator grilles on future batches. Just as a little rudimentary market research, would buyers be offended if we returned to a more finely detailed moulded mesh? Or are we committed to etched grilles, despite the fact that (as various models have proved) it is a real challenge to find a scale mesh as fine as that seen on the real Sulzer Type 2/3s?  

 

It can be quite easily done as a certain manufacturer has proved, (even to the extent of correctly woven mesh grilles where applicable), so I question the assertion that it is a real challenge.

The real question is whether a manufacturer wants to put that time and effort into obtaining detail of that level, and whether the end user is willing to pay for that time and effort instead of bleating on about the cost of a model "rocketing skywards" over £100!! Also, as Vi Trains proved, if you provide that level of fine detail then some modellers will complain it's too fine/easily damaged/impossible to fit,

Personally, in my perfect world, I would make fine plastic mouldings which are fairly easily removable, and put the finer detailed etches in the box for Ham Fisted Harry to have a dabble with, or liase with a quality after market supplier to offer an add on detailing pack.

Manufacturers can't win no matter what they do.

 

Mike.

Fully supportive of Ben even though he supports the wrong team in Sheffield, you know, the one which won't be playing in the Premiership next season!

[Roy Langridge]

Personally I like mesh grills, especially as they give another point of exit for sound. Have you considered a two-part grill with just the mesh in front and second etch behind with the framework which may actually offer some support to the mesh?

 

I don't think the current grills are that bad, they just need not to be so recessed.

 

Thanks,

Roy

Edited May 7, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Paul_sterling]

Afternoon Folks,

 

I've just got back from the NYMR, measuring LH&JC No.29, whilst there, the chaps allowed me to measure one of the Sulzers, admittedly, I could only get to D5032, which is a Cl24, but the cabside taper is 2" per side. The start point of the taper was almost indistinguishable. 

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[robertcwp]

On 06/05/2019 at 21:25, spamcan61 said:

Personally I'd prefer finely detailed moulded mesh.

I agree.

[61661]

Good Morning Everyone,

Entirely by coincidence, a modified and improved Class 25 sample arrived this morning. I think the grille mesh is far superior to the first effort, but I thought it might be useful to find out what RMweb experts think. It's still a compromise between scale accuracy and the need to have a robust component that will withstand regular handling (and still have the detail visible behind) but much better than before. Let us know what you think! 

 

Ben