HELJAN UNVEILS ‘OO’ GAUGE 25/3 AND ‘ETHEL’ FOR 2019

[tractor_37260]

Never had either Phil, so I can’t commnent, but was seriously underwhelmed with the running and shape of the 47. That said I’m about to hack the bits off that shouldn’t be there off a Bachmann 47 bogie.

 

 

I would echo the thought that SLW should look at the 47.Theres room for improvement over the blue box one and the Vi one is done and dusted .

 

With a little TLC and some attention to the pick-ups etc, most HJ 47's will run beautifully,  especially with the later type (plated) wheels. Being 4 axle drive, there are no issues with noise and the bogie rocking on the center axle like some of the Bachmann 6 axle drive models, especially those with slightly banana shaped bogie frames.  The HJ47 also has better traction than most 6 axle drive Bachmann models.  Try pushing a dead HJ47 with a powered Bachy 47 it will just sit and spin it's wheels - whereas a powered HJ47 will push a dead Bachy 47 easily..........................

 

Heljan 26/27's are also very good runners, especially once well run in............................

 

SLW 47 ? that would prove interesting, but would be a long way off, if ever ? we are still waiting a Headcode Box 24  - come on  - MORE votes  - let's get it done !!   

[Clive Mortimore]

With a little TLC and some attention to the pick-ups etc, most HJ 47's will run beautifully,  especially with the later type (plated) wheels. Being 4 axle drive, there are no issues with noise and the bogie rocking on the center axle like some of the Bachmann 6 axle drive models, especially those with slightly banana shaped bogie frames.  The HJ47 also has better traction than most 6 axle drive Bachmann models.  Try pushing a dead HJ47 with a powered Bachy 47 it will just sit and spin it's wheels - whereas a powered HJ47 will push a dead Bachy 47 easily..........................

 

Heljan 26/27's are also very good runners, especially once well run in............................

 

SLW 47 ? that would prove interesting, but would be a long way off, if ever ? we are still waiting a Headcode Box 24  - come on  - MORE votes  - let's get it done !!   

Totally off topic, as you say the Heljan class 47s are very powerful. My MTK class 47 was reverse polarity and it was fun coupling it to a Heljan 47 opening the controller and seeing the MTK one pull a Heljan one on full power backwards. The MTK one has two MTK power bogies.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[61661]

Dear All,

Hope you're well. Just a quick note to say many thanks for the feedback so far. I wasn't able to respond on Friday as I was on a 12in:1ft scale job all day - coincidentally, and appropriately, on the site of the old Derby Works. 

Anyway, having now had time to read through everything, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the feedback and if anyone has any comments about the shape and detail of the new loco (let's call it a late body Class 25, rather than my not-quite-correct, but shorter '25/3'), we'd be delighted to hear from you. I've seen quite a few comments along the lines of 'I hope they get the shape right' - well, now's your chance to have your say. The CADs attached by Andy Y to the top of this thread show how it will look and what level of detail we're planning to include.

 

At the moment, some details are still being finalised, so are subject to change...

1) ETHELs - we are planning for them to be unpowered, arranged in a similar way to dummy HST power cars so that DCC controlled lights and sound can still be installed easily. However, the cost of the motor and gears (and installation thereof) is only a small percentage of the cost so it's unlikely to make a huge difference to the end price. 

2) Original/revised exhausts, tablet catcher recesses and boiler water tanks: We do plan to offer both original (round) and revised (rectangular) exhaust ports, as appropriate. No plans at this stage to include the short-lived tablet catcher recess on that small batch of locos or the small batch of boiler fitted locos with the extra underslung tank. However, if there's huge demand for them, we will look at it for later batches.

3) Liveries and numbers: The initial selection is provisional and we're still looking for photos of both sides of some locos to confirm details and positions of the various bits of deco. If anyone has any photos of the locos in question (in the liveries chosen) that might help us to confirm details or, even more importantly, show up any anomalies, feel free to share them with us!

If any of the chosen locos prove not to be suitable, we will replace them with something that we can confidently say is more accurate. 

 

That's it for the moment, we are working to finalise the details of the chassis, DCC, lighting and sound arrangements and will share them with everyone as soon as they are confirmed. 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

[Zunnan]

I'm sure you're more than aware of https://www.derbysulzers.com/Pic.html as a resource on these locomotives. Great potted history of most of the class with photos of most if not all individuals throughout their lives. As far as liveries and numbers, I would have thought the best options for the banger blue rats would be those which lasted to the end in '87, and/or those which survived to preservation.

[61661]

I'm sure you're more than aware of https://www.derbysulzers.com/Pic.html as a resource on these locomotives. Great potted history of most of the class with photos of most if not all individuals throughout their lives. As far as liveries and numbers, I would have thought the best options for the banger blue rats would be those which lasted to the end in '87, and/or those which survived to preservation.

 

Thanks, yes. It's a remarkable piece of work and a great resource. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...ETHELs - we are planning for them to be unpowered, arranged in a similar way to dummy HST power cars so that DCC controlled lights and sound can still be installed easily ...

 You could get sophisticated and put a micromotor on the board wired to the decoder motor outputs, as a convenience to provide the reactive load for programme track testing of correct decoder installation. If it is Heljan's usual 8 pin socket then fitted with a blanking plug lacking pin 1 or 5 the test motor won't run on DC.

[66738]

I'm sure you're more than aware of https://www.derbysulzers.com/Pic.html as a resource on these locomotives. Great potted history of most of the class with photos of most if not all individuals throughout their lives. As far as liveries and numbers, I would have thought the best options for the banger blue rats would be those which lasted to the end in '87, and/or those which survived to preservation.

Yes please! Something like 313 with ploughs. One of the last to be active, and survives today in preservation.

66738

Edited July 10, 2018 by 66738

[jonny777]

Not sure if this is of any use, but I picked it up online some time back. 

 

97252 at Fort William in August 1985.  

 

 

[The Ghost of IKB]

Dear All,

Hope you're well. Just a quick note to say many thanks for the feedback so far. I wasn't able to respond on Friday as I was on a 12in:1ft scale job all day - coincidentally, and appropriately, on the site of the old Derby Works. 

Anyway, having now had time to read through everything, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the feedback and if anyone has any comments about the shape and detail of the new loco (let's call it a late body Class 25, rather than my not-quite-correct, but shorter '25/3'), we'd be delighted to hear from you. I've seen quite a few comments along the lines of 'I hope they get the shape right' - well, now's your chance to have your say. The CADs attached by Andy Y to the top of this thread show how it will look and what level of detail we're planning to include.

 

At the moment, some details are still being finalised, so are subject to change...

1) ETHELs - we are planning for them to be unpowered, arranged in a similar way to dummy HST power cars so that DCC controlled lights and sound can still be installed easily. However, the cost of the motor and gears (and installation thereof) is only a small percentage of the cost so it's unlikely to make a huge difference to the end price. 

2) Original/revised exhausts, tablet catcher recesses and boiler water tanks: We do plan to offer both original (round) and revised (rectangular) exhaust ports, as appropriate. No plans at this stage to include the short-lived tablet catcher recess on that small batch of locos or the small batch of boiler fitted locos with the extra underslung tank. However, if there's huge demand for them, we will look at it for later batches.

3) Liveries and numbers: The initial selection is provisional and we're still looking for photos of both sides of some locos to confirm details and positions of the various bits of deco. If anyone has any photos of the locos in question (in the liveries chosen) that might help us to confirm details or, even more importantly, show up any anomalies, feel free to share them with us!

If any of the chosen locos prove not to be suitable, we will replace them with something that we can confidently say is more accurate. 

 

That's it for the moment, we are working to finalise the details of the chassis, DCC, lighting and sound arrangements and will share them with everyone as soon as they are confirmed. 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

 

The class leader in regards to rtr diesels at the moment is almost certainly SLW.  If you match  (and I'm sure that you can - as there is a wealth of knowledgable modellers on here that will freely give expert feedback) the standard they've hit with the 24, your 25/3 will be a sure fire success.  For me the SLW scores highly on its sound set up and the rtr EM option.  As well as getting the body details right, a convincing sound system and ease of conversion to EM (and P4) should be high on the list to make this a contender for model of the year.

[GordonC]

Were there any changes to the bodywork for the ETHELs when they were converted? anything different visibly externally (presumably other than ETH cables) compared to normal Class 25s?

[robertcwp]

Some photos:

 

Will Heljan model the smashed headcode panel on D7645?

D7645_KenO_7-7-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D5244 from Bill Wright:

Hi-Res R0095 by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

D7550 GFYE from Dave Jolley:

D7550 by Dave Jolly, on Flickr

 

D7667 from Grahame Wareham: https://flic.kr/p/axugHs

 

D7661 from Grahame Wareham: https://flic.kr/p/axugyo and https://flic.kr/p/axugAE

 

25 155 from Gerald Robinson: https://flic.kr/p/av4hbC

 

25 093 from jools39: https://flic.kr/p/hpuW66

[stovepipe]

2535 – BR rail blue 25252 (LMR) with full yellow ends (single, central double arrows) and headcode panel still in place

To expand on my previous comment, this loco was still in green livery with TOPS numbers to May 1975, and headcode panels were defunct from Jan 1976, leaving at best 7 months for the condition proposed.

25 252 & 25 261 at Wolverhampton by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr

It would be better to pick an example which was blue prior to TOPS renumbering I think.

....though I wouldn't say no to a two-tone green yellow end with TOPS numbers version, there were 20-odd of them after all.


25155

25093

Edited July 10, 2018 by stovepipe

[robertcwp]

Dear All,

Hope you're well. Just a quick note to say many thanks for the feedback so far. I wasn't able to respond on Friday as I was on a 12in:1ft scale job all day - coincidentally, and appropriately, on the site of the old Derby Works. 

Anyway, having now had time to read through everything, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the feedback and if anyone has any comments about the shape and detail of the new loco (let's call it a late body Class 25, rather than my not-quite-correct, but shorter '25/3'), we'd be delighted to hear from you. I've seen quite a few comments along the lines of 'I hope they get the shape right' - well, now's your chance to have your say. The CADs attached by Andy Y to the top of this thread show how it will look and what level of detail we're planning to include.

 

At the moment, some details are still being finalised, so are subject to change...

1) ETHELs - we are planning for them to be unpowered, arranged in a similar way to dummy HST power cars so that DCC controlled lights and sound can still be installed easily. However, the cost of the motor and gears (and installation thereof) is only a small percentage of the cost so it's unlikely to make a huge difference to the end price. 

2) Original/revised exhausts, tablet catcher recesses and boiler water tanks: We do plan to offer both original (round) and revised (rectangular) exhaust ports, as appropriate. No plans at this stage to include the short-lived tablet catcher recess on that small batch of locos or the small batch of boiler fitted locos with the extra underslung tank. However, if there's huge demand for them, we will look at it for later batches.

3) Liveries and numbers: The initial selection is provisional and we're still looking for photos of both sides of some locos to confirm details and positions of the various bits of deco. If anyone has any photos of the locos in question (in the liveries chosen) that might help us to confirm details or, even more importantly, show up any anomalies, feel free to share them with us!

If any of the chosen locos prove not to be suitable, we will replace them with something that we can confidently say is more accurate. 

 

That's it for the moment, we are working to finalise the details of the chassis, DCC, lighting and sound arrangements and will share them with everyone as soon as they are confirmed. 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

Thanks, all very encouraging.

 

As regards the shape, Bachmann's now rather old late-body 25 wasn't very good. Even setting aside the false solebar, the curve at the top of the cab windows was too flat and on the early releases the front windows were too shallow. So, there is an example not to follow. In fairness to Bachmann, their model was the first RTR one of a late-body 25 and it did come out c2001 and standards have advanced since then.

 

Unfortunately, Heljan has some 'previous' when it comes to shape issues, such as the 'peaked-cap Western', too-fat 47, 'light-bulb' effect DP2 and the first attempt at the 33. Plus various issues with the Baby Deltic and others. The Hymek was good though.

 

Perhaps those who are better at such things could compare the CAD with this: 50041_2x25 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 

 

Or better still compare with one of the  1:1 scale ones that are still extant.

 

Also good news about the exhausts. Others will know better than me but I think all 25s [edit: all late body style 25s] came out with the original exhaust. It is certainly visible on photos of D7667 when ex-works. The challenge is establishing when they were altered.

 

I welcome the inclusion of green-to-blue transition era liveries, a subject Bachmann and Hornby tend to neglect. However, it's really important to get the colours right. I recently bought an additional 33/1 to go with my 4TC and the rail blue was distinctly darker than on earlier releases, and I think the old colour looked better, as well as being a close match for the Railmatch shade of blue and that used on the Bachmann 4TC. Still nowhere near as bad as the blue Dapol used on their 73s though. Why is Rail Blue so hard to get right?

Edited July 11, 2018 by robertcwp

[LBRJ]

 Why is Rail Blue so hard to get right?

 

Because under different lighting and age of the paint job it looks different every time you see it - as in most of the pictures above in this thread, would be my guess as to the why

[newbryford]

Were there any changes to the bodywork for the ETHELs when they were converted? anything different visibly externally (presumably other than ETH cables) compared to normal Class 25s?

 

Buffer beam mounted ETH sockets/plugs.

 

Mesh guards were added over the front cab windows during their ETHEL use - supposedly to protect them from errant lumps of coal breaking the glass.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited July 10, 2018 by newbryford

[Phil Bullock]

 

 

Also good news about the exhausts. Others will know better than me but I think all 25s came out with the original exhaust. It is certainly visible on photos of D7667 when ex-works. The challenge is establishing when they were altered.

 

 

 

Hi Robert

 

Sulzer type 2 site suggests some old style body 25/1s and 25/2s had new exhaust arrangement as built

 

See http://derbysulzers.com/class24detail.html

 

Something else that was an issue on the Bachmann model....

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[Tim Hall]

Buffer beam mounted ETH sockets/plugs.

 

Mesh guards were added over the front cab windows during their ETHEL use - supposedly to protect them from errant lumps of coal breaking the glass.

 

Cheers,

Mick

I'm fairly sure that the meshes were only added when the ETHELs moved south to take up duties on steam specials out of Marylebone (?). No sign on ETHEL 2 or 3 at Eastfield, 29th June 85

[robertcwp]

Hi Robert

 

Sulzer type 2 site suggests some old style body 25/1s and 25/2s had new exhaust arrangement as built

 

See http://derbysulzers.com/class24detail.html

 

Something else that was an issue on the Bachmann model....

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

Useful link. In my comment earlier I was thinking of the later body style.

[Clive Mortimore]

Dear All,

Hope you're well. Just a quick note to say many thanks for the feedback so far. I wasn't able to respond on Friday as I was on a 12in:1ft scale job all day - coincidentally, and appropriately, on the site of the old Derby Works. 

Anyway, having now had time to read through everything, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the feedback and if anyone has any comments about the shape and detail of the new loco (let's call it a late body Class 25, rather than my not-quite-correct, but shorter '25/3'), we'd be delighted to hear from you. I've seen quite a few comments along the lines of 'I hope they get the shape right' - well, now's your chance to have your say. The CADs attached by Andy Y to the top of this thread show how it will look and what level of detail we're planning to include.

 

At the moment, some details are still being finalised, so are subject to change...

1) ETHELs - we are planning for them to be unpowered, arranged in a similar way to dummy HST power cars so that DCC controlled lights and sound can still be installed easily. However, the cost of the motor and gears (and installation thereof) is only a small percentage of the cost so it's unlikely to make a huge difference to the end price. 

2) Original/revised exhausts, tablet catcher recesses and boiler water tanks: We do plan to offer both original (round) and revised (rectangular) exhaust ports, as appropriate. No plans at this stage to include the short-lived tablet catcher recess on that small batch of locos or the small batch of boiler fitted locos with the extra underslung tank. However, if there's huge demand for them, we will look at it for later batches.

3) Liveries and numbers: The initial selection is provisional and we're still looking for photos of both sides of some locos to confirm details and positions of the various bits of deco. If anyone has any photos of the locos in question (in the liveries chosen) that might help us to confirm details or, even more importantly, show up any anomalies, feel free to share them with us!

If any of the chosen locos prove not to be suitable, we will replace them with something that we can confidently say is more accurate. 

 

That's it for the moment, we are working to finalise the details of the chassis, DCC, lighting and sound arrangements and will share them with everyone as soon as they are confirmed. 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

Hi Ben

 

Any intentions of doing the mid production body, the 25/2 with side grilles and nose doors. If not I will carry on marking out the plastic card for the side grilles and doors. The Miliput remains on stand by to fill in the cant rail grilles.

[tractor_37260]

I'm fairly sure that the meshes were only added when the ETHELs moved south to take up duties on steam specials out of Marylebone (?). No sign on ETHEL 2 or 3 at Eastfield, 29th June 85

June 85 10 (2).JPGJune 85 12 (3).JPG

 

Ethel 2 & 3 had meshes fitted, after being repainted into Exec livery  - 1986 ? .  AFAIK the meshes were fitted/required when Ethels were used on steam hauled Inter-City Charter sets/specials etc.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151257534@N04/24194200248/in/album-72157686913221484/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151257534@N04/26270231679/in/album-72157686913221484/

Edited July 11, 2018 by tractor_37260

[61661]

Hi Ben

 

Any intentions of doing the mid production body, the 25/2 with side grilles and nose doors. If not I will carry on marking out the plastic card for the side grilles and doors. The Miliput remains on stand by to fill in the cant rail grilles.

 

Hi Clive,

No plans to do any other Class 25 variants at the moment. Others are said to be looking at the earlier 25 body styles, and we wouldn't want to risk any accusations of duplication.

 

Ben

[amwells]

Hi Clive,

No plans to do any other Class 25 variants at the moment. Others are said to be looking at the earlier 25 body styles, and we wouldn't want to risk any accusations of duplication.

 

Ben

Can I just say ‘thank you’ to Ben for opening lines of communication like this.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive,

No plans to do any other Class 25 variants at the moment. Others are said to be looking at the earlier 25 body styles, and we wouldn't want to risk any accusations of duplication.

 

Ben

Hi Ben

 

Thanks you. Now that means I have to save up for a new loco and a new scalpel blade.    I done quite a few Hornby mid production bodies into late body type 2s so doing the reverse seems like a nice modelling project. 

[robertcwp]

Hi Clive,

No plans to do any other Class 25 variants at the moment. Others are said to be looking at the earlier 25 body styles, and we wouldn't want to risk any accusations of duplication.

 

Ben

Bachmann have announced the 25/1 (and early body style 25/2) and the late-body style 25 (there being three body styles on 25s, not two). We are, however, still waiting for their headcode box 24 (don't call it a 24/1 as lots of those had the earlier 'skinhead' with discs), which would also do a 25/0 without much adaptation.

[Clive Mortimore]

Bachmann have announced the 25/1 (and early body style 25/2) and the late-body style 25 (there being three body styles on 25s, not two). We are, however, still waiting for their headcode box 24 (don't call it a 24/1 as lots of those had the earlier 'skinhead' with discs), which would also do a 25/0 without much adaptation.

HI Robert

 

I know there is three body styles, D5151-75, like a late body class 24. I have converted Hornby models in to this version. Sadly I have sold them on in a stock downsizing exercise along with the late bodied 24s including one with wings to its head code box but no horns. As announced a few years ago by Bachmann.....is it still on the books?

 

Mid production body (as I had called them) D5176-5232 and D7578-7597, as per the Hornby and Bachmann models.

 

Late body, the rest, like the DJH kit, Bachmann loco and the proposed Heljan model.

 

Many modellers get confused as class 25/1 and class 25/2 had the mid production bodies, and 25/2 (again) and 25/3s had late production bodies. The difference is not the loco body but the electrics inside. The 25/0s did have their own body style, they differed from the late body (four figure headcode) class 24/1 in not having a bolier and corresponding water tank.