Heljan pricing - 15% discount rule

[rembrow]

This seems an odd decision as Heljan is not a brand that is stocked by all retailers. In my area, of the two local retailers, one wouldn't stock their products as they saw them as niche models with a limited market and with added administrative issues of having to order them directly from Heljan in Denmark. My other retailer stocks only a limited range of available products. So for me, I have always had to buy Heljan by mail order. All this will do for me is that I will no longer pre order Heljan, as I also no longer do with Bachmann, due to the lack of final pricing and wait for the product to arrive, then tour the web. Most Heljan products take some time to shift, certainly in 'oo' gauge, so I'm content to play a waiting game.

[47423]

My local shop doesn't sell HJ, so I generally buy them from the box shifters. These days I like to spread my orders out with smaller shops but few seem to stock HJ.

[County of Yorkshire]

To be frank I don't really see any issues with this. If you are desperate for the latest release of a loco, you buy it straight away (as I did with the Heljan 47xx) and pay full whack. However, if the model is not a 'must have' but you would like one if you can justify it on price grounds, then wait and take the risk that the loco you want will still be available in 6/12 months time.

 

The recent 'dumping' of the Heljan 02's onto Hattons did the company no favours in my view as now if I want another 47xx I'll just wait 12/18 months and get another one at 30-50% off RRP. 

 

We've all got the moral decision to make as to whether we pursue the cheapest possible price for an item, or whether we put more stock in supporting our local traders; but to me that's something of a private matter, and I struggle to see it as crime of the century if someone wants to purchase an item as the cheapest possible price they can - it's a free market. 

 

CoY

[mdvle]

Perhaps one of the reason so few stores sell Heljan is because of the inability to compete with the big online stores, that given the more limited market for Heljan product it just creates too much risk of having a model that a smaller shop would have to sell at a loss?

 

Thus by limiting discounts it may (with time) open up the opportunity for smaller stores to stock some items with more of a chance to sell the item that still allows a profit on the sale.

 

As for the shopping around for the best price, I don't think anyone is saying that it is wrong.  Rather just pointing out in an indirect way that not supporting a local store can have consequences - that the store closes - that can make things more expensive for a person when looking at an entire year of purchases when the cost of shipping all the little items gets taken into consideration, or the inconvenience of having to wait for something to arrive by delivery instead a quick stop into the local store.

[Legend]

Margin may be one side of it but the cost of stocking an item on the off chance someone will buy it is a major consideration . These are relatively high priced items for a shop to stock eg 47xx and if he doesn’t sell it within first 6 weeks , the big boys will start discounting to unload their stocks , even bigger risk of being left with unsold stock. People make a lot of manufacturers supporting local shops and indeed this 15% rule maybe to do just that, but the single thing that’s stopping people stocking models is the huge increases in cost in the last 5 years. Working capital tied up .

[ThaneofFife]

Is it just me or does anybody else really detest the race to the bottom we are now in on prices, not just on model railway products?

 

I guess that's one of the downsides that the internet has brought us whereas as a kid back in the 70s me and my dad would trip out to one of two local model shops and maybe a deal could be done generally on secondhand stuff dad would tend to buy us.  

 

One was Bob Models (not the Solihull shop but the original aladdin's cave type of shop on the old Coventry Road in Small Heath, Birmingham stocking new and secondhand) and the other was Beattie's (in the old Bull Ring, Birmingham City Centre).  I seem to recall that new items back then were priced on a take it or leave it basis.  My rose tinted glasses recall the yellow pages advert with the lad ringing up his local model shop asking if they have the Hornby R186 signal box from Townsends models.  Imagine that now same kid now asking if he can get 15% or more off - the guy at Townsends would put the phone down !!!  

 

I don't have the answers and do understand both arguments but do look back now and think it was somehow better because you didn't have 10 different prices at your fingertips to sift out the best deals.  The back cover of some magazines would sometimes list discounted models at a retailer but I think that benefitted those local to the shop.   We always preferred to physically go and collect our models.   We never had a model trail posted to our house back then !

Edited September 12, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[rob D2]

None if you don't want a shop to call in and buy sundries when you want or need them. I'd say my local (deservedly) makes more money from me calling in every few weeks to stock up with paint, brushes, tools and anything else that takes my fancy than if I beat him down on a price for a loco.

 

Where do you live then?

 

I know of a few shops that haven't bothered stocking Heljan as the margins have been small and the risk of being substantially undercut high so hopefully this will mean that Heljan products will see more stockists.

Sadly, I’m not sure this idea of using modelshops for sundries is that valid these days. For instance, my local model shop is about 4 miles away . Involves paying to park in town centre. All Bachmann etc appears to be RRP, therefore I’d have to buy a lot of paints etc to validate the trip and I’d probably steer clear of the big ticket items. And very specialised items I’d still need to get online

 

Instead I can go to the local retail park with hobbycraft and buy all the Normal sundries paint, wood, brushes, glue etc and I can make a trip to pets at home, Pound stretcher etc and really make the petrol used in the endeavour worthwhile.

 

Big ticket items of rolling stock I try and source “ ethically “ ( for me ) and that is one of my three referred suppliers ( all retail, but online due distance ) and not necessarily the cheapest as I’ll pay a bit more for trusted customer service, but preferably not full RRP

Edited September 12, 2018 by rob D2

[D9016]

Hattons prices on Heljan Westerns have increased in last few days.

[rembrow]

Is it just me or does anybody else really detest the race to the bottom we are now in on prices, not just on model railway products?

 

I guess that's one of the downsides that the internet has brought us whereas as a kid back in the 70s me and my dad would trip out to one of two local model shops and maybe a deal could be done generally on secondhand stuff dad would tend to buy us.

 

One was Bob Models (not the Solihull shop but the original aladdin's cave type of shop on the old Coventry Road in Small Heath, Birmingham stocking new and secondhand) and the other was Beattie's (in the old Bull Ring, Birmingham City Centre). I seem to recall that new items back then were priced on a take it or leave it basis. My rose tinted glasses recall the yellow pages advert with the lad ringing up his local model shop asking if they have the Hornby R186 signal box from Townsends models. Imagine that now same kid now asking if he can get 15% or more off - the guy at Townsends would put the phone down !!!

 

I don't have the answers and do understand both arguments but do look back now and think it was somehow better because you didn't have 10 different prices at your fingertips to sift out the best deals. The back cover of some magazines would sometimes list discounted models at a retailer but I think that benefitted those local to the shop. We always preferred to physically go and collect our models. We never had a model trail posted to our house back then !

What is worth remembering is that model railway retailing has had a significant distance selling presence, with discounting, for 40 years or more, long before the internet. When I came back into the hobby in the late 1970s and started to purchase Railway Modeller, I saw a high level of retail adverts for model selling by phone or post, with significant discounting. Railmail and Hattons were probably the largest by advert size. So internet discounting is only the current iteration of what has been a significant part of model retailing for a long time. Until earlier this year, I mainly purchased from a local retailer and had pre ordered their for 34 years. Unfortunately they closed in June this year. I am good friends with the owner, who was quite open with me about the reasons for the closure. He had become stressed by the pressure of running a retail business and with the hassle he had, over several years, in the regular changes that Hornby had made to its retailer systems, and the regular problems with his customer account, and with being excluded from being offered discounted stock.

The problem with these attempts to control the retail market, as that's what it is, is that it borders on being a breach of consummer protection as it is based on creating a minimum price and is maintained by threats to remove a retail customer who breaches, from receiving stock. With Bachmann introducing this system we've seen some distance sellers partially obviating the constraint, by offering free p&p on new Bachmann products. That is an incentive to me, as my nearest shop is 70 mile round trip, with a fuel cost of about £12. Businesses will always seek ways to get round restrictions, because we are in a competitive rather than a controlled market.

Town retailing across many sectors is under serious pressure, as we've all seen from the high profile closures. I don't see that this measure is going to protect the remaining town based model shops and perhaps being more suspicious, I wonder if it's more focused on avoiding retailer pressure against the sellers. I recall about 4 years ago, during one of Hornby's earlier management teams, they broight in a different measure to support smaller retailers, offering a periodic discount for purchases of stock below a certain level. This wasn't available to larger retailers. One major retailer disagreed with these terms and reduced their Hornby order to just the level to meet pre orders. I don't know how this panned out, but I mention it to show how the trade can react to what it sees as restrictions.

Edited September 12, 2018 by rembrow

[The Stationmaster]

It won't make much difference to me as most of my buying is done at my two 'local' model shops (one of which is a long way away but still considered. by me as a 'local shop').  

 

As many on here will know I have long had the view that the deep discounters, especially those relying solely on volume to accompany their minimal margins (£1 on an r-t-r loco in one case I know of), have been bad for the hobby as they have presented severe competition to local shops adding an unwanted additional problem to all the others which face those in the retail trade.  Quite right - as 'Rembrow' notes above - that some we around long before the internet and of course 'mail order' is hardly a new idea but the 'net has had a massive impact and greatly aided the 'pile it high, sell it cheap' business model of certain concerns.   And where, we might ask, are Beatties nowadays - both they and at least one of their successors have gone.

 

We live - in many respects - in a free country and can therefore shop within reason wherever we want but my nearest 'local' shop (about an hour's drive away, and with free car parking) will always test locos before handing them over to me and that alone is worth more to me than saving an extra X%.  Equally I can buy from them numerous other items, including an excellent range of books, as well as modelling materials etc so the shop is well worth supporting.  A shed on a remote trading estate is really of little interest or use to me even if it offers 'fantastic deals' as such deals might not always be as 'fantastic' as one might expect.  And as already mentioned I continue to heartily dislike the race to the bottom in retail pricing as inevitably something is being lost in order to trade at lower margins - what is being lost will obviously vary from business to business but no matter what they're selling something will have been missed out compared, in most cases, with the service you get from a local retailer.

 

Years ago external factors (retirements and site redevelopment) caused the loss for me of a superb and very local model shop.  That loss was more than enough to make me appreciate the value in helping to keep such concerns in business because once they've gone they won't be coming back.

[Ian Hargrave]

Indeed Heljan stockists are comparatively rare for whatever reason.On this forum they have developed a curate's egg reputation and certainly their latest offerings are controversial.However we now have an "in house" appointee in the person of Ben who is known and liked by us all.Yesterday's news of a relaunched BG is encouraging and demonstrates a willingness to reconnect with the U.K.retail trade.Heljan need an improved profile and actively to promote and encourage their products to a wider clientele.More and better after sales sevice would help and I hope that pricing restrictions will not drive us all in the opposite direction.,retailers and their customers alike.Bachmann actively take care of their retal trade and there is little reason why Heljan should not follow suit.

 

Heljan have demonstrated that they can deliver quality models.Maybe time to up the game and be more pro active ?

They have just the guy for the task. I am optimistic.....and I have been openly critical of the 47XX with good reason.

[adb968008]

Where I live, all model shops are dead to me.

 

The internet is my source, however my second source is Model Railway exhibitions.. Epsom, Tolworth, Croydon, NEC and Ally Pally provide useful pickings for those other parts instead. Sadly Wimbledon and Carshalton exhibitions seem now to be history since c2016.

 

Invicta or Addlestone are closest at a 2 hour round trip, Janes in Tooting is closer (1 hour round trip, 2 if by train or tube even though it’s only a few miles in London traffic) but every time I go the closed sign has been on the door, and parking is a no-go.

Sadly those travel times mean it’s weekend only (and weekend minutes are the most valuable I have in family time), if there was late night opening then it’s a possibility.

 

I’ve thought a couple of times maybe a new shop in the area maybe could have legs, and that an MRC could fill the gap of the shop.. but as it appears that clubs around here are declining, then there’s little chance for a shop..., but without the shop its declining.. vicious circle.

 

So no matter how much the manufacturers try to support retailers, at least in my area of South London / Surrey, they cant do much as the enthusiasts themselves are declining... this “most recent” quote from Wimbledons’ MRC on March 1st pretty much said it all...

 

“The new test tracks don't marry up so doesn't complete a circuit, so it's back to the drawing board with that one.

The club still doesn't have a plan for providing an annual exhibition, tho many suggestions have been put forward, nothing is meeting our needs.

There should be an Open Day this year, however no date has been set , so until we can agree a date, that is on hold. ”

https://www.facebook.com/WimbledonModelRailwayClub1924/?hc_ref=ART68gO0kuI6nJ5S3WW7vpnjQ4IcMmRtit8R5cWXh1OuTlj3oZAU12CnIV4azGazdp0&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARCw8LfGX5_-Cr823s0LrWWNG60xcUq_HnjjjrjLNCztINN8T2fnM0ibzAQK00MEVvYQDOhNdwKGmdhm5tTd5MYFYhrTv7Gpe83QfOk_Nof4onx2aSXhKvphnjRgxe-ZLE45zwoseQtYkYxZQrH2ZOcYLzgfG0m6CBifUrD1DPg5MwytFvooVA&__tn__=kC-R

 

Around here doesn’t seem to optimistic, which is a shame, as many of the local clubs seems filled with History and it’s clear this area was once a hot bed for enthusiasts, i was considering the MRC in London following the Accurascale talk, though as I don’t work in the capital, it’s also 2 1/2 hour round trip..

 

What are the options ?

? Could Manufacturers could get behind model railway clubs instead, offer them trading terms which could then see their membership lift and give the clubs support..

? Maybe one of the box shifters could open a satellite operation.. Rails of Croydon or Hattons of Wimbledon ?

? Accurascale have set up camp in Morden, Woukd they consider a retail or social aspect to their operation..

 

I just seemed to have arrived 3 decades too late for the party in this area.. when it comes to the 15% rule.. there’s nothing here to protect, yet it’s an affluent area, with a lot of retired people with a strong railway heritage that some how seems to have lost its sustainability, invariably to the WWW and local business economics. Indeed it surprises me that neither Wimbledon nor Croydon, with all its junction connections /commuter routes & cheaper rates being outer London, has no model railway retail presence at all.

Edited September 12, 2018 by adb968008

[mdvle]

There will be parts of the country (like anywhere inside the M25 I would guess) where opening / sustaining a model shop will be next to impossible, even if there was no discounting, simply because external factors make many businesses impossible - cost of rent / cost of parking / cost of living / landlords preferring the big pocketed large chains.

 

Similarly, a lack of clubs or decline in clubs isn't necessarily an indication of a health of this hobby.  Much as what faces a small retailer can also cause problems for a club, where rent / parking / inconvenient transit etc. can all take a toll.  But, just as the Internet has changed retail, it has also threatened clubs.  How many people on RMweb are essentially using RMweb to replace the social aspect of the hobby that they would in the past get either from a club or from hanging out at the hobby shop?

 

What something like Heljan's new policy can do though is improve the viability of those hobby shops that still exist outside of the expensive areas.

[bike2steam]

 Indeed it surprises me that neither Wimbledon nor Croydon, with all its junction connections /commuter routes & cheaper rates being outer London, has no model railway retail presence at all.

You aren't serious surely?? Retail wise still too expensive areas, and too much a financial risk. All commuters want to do is get from A to B, not drop off half-way. Even shops in the better off areas( well what's left of them) outside the M25 are struggling.   

[Legend]

Too late in Scotland . I can probably count model railway retailers in the whole country using fingers on both hands .  In Glasgow,only Pastimes , who tends to concentrate on second hand, little if any new stuff) and a model shop on Dumbarton Road , who had very little railway stock last time I was there.  So really this latest Heljan initiative is a case of certainly too late , and possibly too little as you would need to sell lots at your new margin to make it viable.

 

Was it people looking for the lowest price that killed it ?  Well certainly the rise of Hattons , Rails , Kernow etc is a factor , but I think the bigger factors are increases in costs of running a shop in city center (its not just model railways that are suffering), but also the dramatic increase in cost of models .   I remember looking for the then new Hornby HST in D&F and was surprised they didn't have any . The response was that it was too expensive for them to stock  at that time (I think it cost £109 in these days), costs have only gone up since then . I think they got out at the right time.

[adb968008]

You aren't serious surely?? Retail wise still too expensive areas, and too much a financial risk. All commuters want to do is get from A to B, not drop off half-way. Even shops in the better off areas( well what's left of them) outside the M25 are struggling.

 

In that case, glass half empty time...

 

Sadly where London goes the country follows.

Enjoy your shops whilst you have them,

But similarly enjoy the hobby whilst it lasts, as here it’s dying.

 

Glass half full time again..

I’d like to think there is more that could be done. Lots of international modellers pass by the UK (and London), and there is still a lot of support in the area, it could need a bit of harnessing.

 

By all means price protect the shops, but some support for the hobby could be worthwhile.

I know sales reps are busy with shops much of the time, but in the same manner Accurascales presentation at the MRC meeting night was a success, this is something all manufacturers could support at various club nights on a local level, and invigorate people away from their online shopping baskets.

 

It doesn’t have to be the full Bachmann stand and glass cabinets... a sales rep with a current box of tricks at a running night would suffice.

Edited September 12, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

Eventually people will just pre order less and shops in turn will order less leading to lower than expected sales for the manufacturer. Mind you Heljans prices have not increased much over the years unlike Bachmann where more and more people are saying "FC-you-K me, how much?"

 

The new Garret is still cheaper than a Stirling Single.

[delticfan]

Tower have shocking customer service, their view they are doing you a favour in allowing you to buy from them.

Totally agree with this post had some awful dealings with tower never again don’t care how cheap they are. The bloke I dealt with was an arogant so and so, I don’t think they understand the words customer service.

[Hal Nail]

Totally agree with this post had some awful dealings with tower never again don’t care how cheap they are. The bloke I dealt with was an arogant so and so, I don’t think they understand the words customer service.

Having seen them at shows, one is as you describe and the rest perfectly pleasant. I just put the phone down and ring back if I get the wrong one. Had some excellent service from them when a loco failed - arranged couriers and a replacement arrived before they’d got the old one back.

[Stevelewis]

Tower have shocking customer service, their view they are doing you a favour in allowing you to buy from them.

 

Really?   I  have  been  a  customer  of  Tower  Models  since  they  first  opened  in  Cookson Street,,  over  the  years  I visited  the  shop several  times  ( as  luck  would  have  it  my  employment  territory  often  included  Blackpool)  my more  recent  purchases  have been  from telephone  orders,  I have  always  found  Dave & Richard  to be  nothing  but  courteous  &  Helpful,  

On the  very  few  occasions  I have  had  a  problem with an item, it  has  been  dealt  with rapidly  sometimes  a  replacement  being  received  before  the faulty one  was  returned   and  always  an adjustment   for my out of pocket expenses.

[jjb1970]

For large parts of the country the train left the station with regards having a local model shop years ago and t is unlikely to be coming back. Which means people have probably three choices (well, four if you include taking up an alternative hobby);

 

-Travel to a shop, that could be a long trip with no guarantee that the shop will stuff that you want (obviously if it is one particularly item you can call before travelling, but to me the attraction of visiting a shop is to browse and find stuff you'd ordinarily not really look at);

-Go to exhibitions/shows and head for the trade stands; or

-Shop online (or via old fashioned magazine ads if you don't have the internet....)

 

I enjoy visiting model shops and if I'm in the vicinity of a shop I'll make an effort to visit but I don't travel to visit shops. These days I'm increasingly disinclined to go to our local shopping centre as I can't be bothered with the hassle of finding a parking space, paying for parking and all that just for the pleasure of spending my money in a shop. So I buy online, and to be honest I do shop around for prices and see nothing wrong with it. And some shops offer both low prices and first class services, I use the Hobby Shop in Faversham quite a bit as I like Italian HO and they often have nice Italian models at good prices (although most of my Italian stuff comes from Tecno in Italy, a shop I can't praise highly enough). For paints, adhesives etc I can still motivate myself to visit the local Hobbycraft which has an excellent range.

[meatloaf]

None if you don't want a shop to call in and buy sundries when you want or need them. I'd say my local (deservedly) makes more money from me calling in every few weeks to stock up with paint, brushes, tools and anything else that takes my fancy than if I beat him down on a price for a loco.

 

Where do you live then?

 

I know of a few shops that haven't bothered stocking Heljan as the margins have been small and the risk of being substantially undercut high so hopefully this will mean that Heljan products will see more stockists.

 

Hi andy, I think my local shop is the same one as yours, and I don't think they discount at all. But I still choose to spend my money there because I can get what I want straight away, theres no waiting in for the post. No sending faulty items back, I can see the item in the flesh, and if I call beforehand I can have it run in and decoder fitted before I collect. Then theres the added convienience of realising you need an item and being able to jump in the car and have it that day.

 

They've recently started selling 0 gauge stuff, interestingly tho I don't think ive seen any Heljan there. Might be wrong tho.

[mdvle]

For large parts of the country the train left the station with regards having a local model shop years ago and t is unlikely to be coming back. Which means people have probably three choices (well, four if you include taking up an alternative hobby);

 

I don't think anyone necessarily has any illusions about hobby shops suddenly starting to reappear everywhere, though you may occasionally get someone started up a shop.

 

But what this move does do is giving the remaining stores a fighting chance to stay around by being able to compete for customers.  Thus helping to try and avoid a future where we end up with only 2 or 3 retailers and thus a lack of competition at all.

 

It also may be a case of Heljan deciding they need to try and get a similar retail presence as Dapol have given Dapol's continuing expansion into 7mm.

[MikeParkin65]

 

The new Garret is still cheaper than a Stirling Single.

Both niche products, the Stirling built up to a standard, the Garrett built down to a price. 

[jjb1970]

And the Rapido Stirling single works. Oh, maybe shouldn't have said that