Heljan pricing - 15% discount rule

[Airport2010]

Tower have shocking customer service, their view they are doing you a favour in allowing you to buy from them.

Completely agree. Wouldn’t buy a fishplate from them.

[MRDBLUE17]

Having spent 20 years in retail, brands creating rules to follow is nothing new. All the big luxury brands do it. Restricting discount, some have different cost prices for different retailers or even countries and margins are very tight. Only a few years ago wages was the biggest cost on the high street stores which of course you could control. Rent and Rates eclipse this now and VAT is at 20% which all impacts on what little margin is there. Easy to see why shops are struggling with the internet. Looking at our hobby we need specialist shops, without them getting advice, info will make new or returnees less likely in the future. Trying to support model shops by manufacturers is a good thing but perhaps more consistency is needed. We all like a bargain and I’ve had many over the years from shows and second hand items in model shops. I support my local shops Harburn Hobbies and Crafty Hobbies where I can as they carry all sorts of extra items I might need, great service and I can pre order items with good discounts. Makes a lot of sense to me to use a shop when you can

 

Thanks

Mark

[delticfan]

Don’t know about any others but Heljan doesn’t seem to be stocked by smaller hobby shops to my knowledge it’s tower, Hattons and rails of Sheffield and kernow.

[bike2steam]

Don’t know about any others but Heljan doesn’t seem to be stocked by smaller hobby shops to my knowledge it’s tower, Hattons and rails of Sheffield and kernow.

 

Smaller hobby shops wont risk stocking items that wont shift fast enough, slow moving stock loses money, might as well use valuable space for faster moving items.

[Legend]

Smaller hobby shops wont risk stocking items that wont shift fast enough, slow moving stock loses money, might as well use valuable space for faster moving items.

 

Its a catch 22 insn't it . Shops need the footfall  but at the same time can't afford to stock items . Result .....we go to box shifters or direct to get the model

 

I still think its the huge increase in cost of items  that's the main reason that the local model shop is suffering .  Look how many people on here are saying I'm spending the same amount of money, but buying less.  There's the risk of holding stock that no one will buy , maybe because a box shifter will discount it, now after 6 weeks .   Interestingly I wonder how this is enforced?  Six weeks from Release of model, 6 weeks from retailer ordering it (probably not , as they could have ordered it years in advance of release), 6 weeks from receipt, 6 weeks from Invoice date? Is someone monitoring it in case its discounted after 5 weeks . Will all hell break loose and a plague cast upon them?  Will retailers hold price for 8 weeks just to be sure they don't fall foul of the rules? 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Legend

[young37215]

Heljan's actions are an attempt to circumvent trading laws plain and simple. They are not the first and will not be the last to do so as others have identified in this thread. The Authorities lack of action is typical of how the statute book in the UK is currently enforced on a selective basis.

 

I fear that people are missing the broader point about retailing in general where daily reports of retailers in dire financial straits are commonplace. All of the factors behind this have been identified in the thread, it is simply a fact of life in this day and age that high street retailing is challenging and model shops are no exception. Whilst I love the thought of an old style model shop environment, I have become used to the modern online world getting items delivered by post and make no excuses for doing so for the bulk of my purchases. In my view the online market gives me a much wider choice than relying on a local model shop who realistically could never stock everything given the extensive manufacturers catalogues that exist today. 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Y]

Heljan's actions are an attempt to circumvent trading laws plain and simple. They are not the first and will not be the last to do so as others have identified in this thread. 

 

There's certainly nothing illegal about it as they are asking, not demanding; it's been looked at before and it's a sensible agreement. If anyone decided to just disregard it a manufacturer could choose not to supply them in future (they have a right to do so).

[JSpencer]

There's certainly nothing illegal about it as they are asking, not demanding; it's been looked at before and it's a sensible agreement. If anyone decided to just disregard it a manufacturer could choose not to supply them in future (they have a right to do so).

 

Ultimately this scheme will back fire as prices rise. Though those of Heljans have not risen much - so it will work here for now. Few are really bothered about getting a £100 item £15 cheaper later, but they will be bothered about getting a £250 item, £50 later.

 

Bachmann's limit + large price increases + announcing the price only towards the end = cancelled pre-orders.

 

Cancelled or fewer pre-orders (I,ve not ordered any HAPs or BEPs yet) makes it harder for shops to anticipate demand and fewer shop orders - especially from smaller shops. The big box shifter still wins.

[Trains4U]

Don’t know about any others but Heljan doesn’t seem to be stocked by smaller hobby shops to my knowledge it’s tower, Hattons and rails of Sheffield and kernow.

There are certainly more than that (ourselves included)

 

The stockist page on the Heljan website lists 72 UK shops

Though the list is woefully out of date with a number of shops listed that have been closed or have moved premises (some several years ago)

[Andy Y]

Few are really bothered about getting a £100 item £15 cheaper later, but they will be bothered about getting a £250 item, £50 later.

 

 

15% of £250 = £37.50 - it's all relative.

[bike2steam]

 Look how many people on here are saying I'm spending the same amount of money, but buying less.  

No surprise there, seeing as a large chunk of the population hasn't had a decent pay rise in years, but prices are escalating. I must not get political!!

[Godfrey Glyn]

Don’t know about any others but Heljan doesn’t seem to be stocked by smaller hobby shops to my knowledge it’s tower, Hattons and rails of Sheffield and kernow.

 

Not sure if you would class Alton Model Centre as a small model shop, it certainly has a huge stock if not a big national profile, but Paul has Heljan OO in abundance and quite a bit of O gauge stock, all of which is sold below RRP at sensible prices.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

[Legend]

Arcadia, which is my definition of an absolutely brilliant model shop, must stock them too.

[mdvle]

Its a catch 22 insn't it . Shops need the footfall  but at the same time can't afford to stock items . Result .....we go to box shifters or direct to get the model

 

I still think its the huge increase in cost of items  that's the main reason that the local model shop is suffering .  Look how many people on here are saying I'm spending the same amount of money, but buying less.  There's the risk of holding stock that no one will buy , maybe because a box shifter will discount it, now after 6 weeks .   Interestingly I wonder how this is enforced?  Six weeks from Release of model, 6 weeks from retailer ordering it (probably not , as they could have ordered it years in advance of release), 6 weeks from receipt, 6 weeks from Invoice date? Is someone monitoring it in case its discounted after 5 weeks . Will all hell break loose and a plague cast upon them?  Will retailers hold price for 8 weeks just to be sure they don't fall foul of the rules? 

 

Yet every time a new model is announced there lots of people posting about buying it despite it not being their main model interest, invoking rule 1 or any number of other excuses.

 

Or saying they just have to have x of them even though they can't really justify that many.

 

I don't mean to dismiss the pricing issue, because there absolutely are problem issues developing over the years.  But this is still a (relatively) big hobby, particularly when compared to other countries, and the prices aren't as out of line as some think.

 

Compare the recently announced Dapol Class 68 with a list price of £155 with the recently announced Athearn SD60E in the US, which has a US list price of $220, which converts to £168, and when we add in the VAT to be comparable we get £201. 

[JSpencer]

Yet every time a new model is announced there lots of people posting about buying it despite it not being their main model interest, invoking rule 1 or any number of other excuses.

 

Or saying they just have to have x of them even though they can't really justify that many.

 

I don't mean to dismiss the pricing issue, because there absolutely are problem issues developing over the years.  But this is still a (relatively) big hobby, particularly when compared to other countries, and the prices aren't as out of line as some think.

 

Compare the recently announced Dapol Class 68 with a list price of £155 with the recently announced Athearn SD60E in the US, which has a US list price of $220, which converts to £168, and when we add in the VAT to be comparable we get £201. 

 

For every item there will be people who will buy it, but few of everyone will actually buy every item.

For example, I brought 6 P class this year and can justify them (4 preserved examples, SECR colours, Bluebell, KESR all my fond memories) but won't buy a single class 66 of either make.

 

Some items are still sitting around though. Birdcages, of which I brought 2 rakes (BR/SECR) can still be found even though we are getting on for a year since release suggesting that they did not fly off the shelves as fast as I and others thought they would. Maybe too expensive, maybe too many made or a mix of both.

That said, they have not dropped much in price.

 

I think we have entered a circle, price increase = fewer buyers this run = smaller future production runs = price increase and so it repeats.

[Stevelewis]

Arcadia, which is my definition of an absolutely brilliant model shop, must stock them too.

 

Tim  at  ARCADIA    does  stock  Heljan  in  depth,  I  have  had  many a a Heljan   bargain  from  him!

 

There  are  almost  3  pages  of  Heljan  Listings on  his  website  currently  and  he  probably got  more  in  stock  which are not  listed.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Stevelewis

[Great Western]

There's certainly nothing illegal about it as they are asking, not demanding; it's been looked at before and it's a sensible agreement. If anyone decided to just disregard it a manufacturer could choose not to supply them in future (they have a right to do so).

So retailers are effectively threatened, indirectly that if they don't tow the party line they can forget being supplied in future.

I can't see Heljan turning round to the likes of Hattons and refusing to supply them, either way it stinks of price fixing and dirty tricks.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Great Western

[jjb1970]

If there is a demand for something then generally somebody will serve that demand. So I really don't see the model hobby retail sector as being threatened with extinction as it's worth remembering the shops that are selling on-line are shops and even dedicated on-line businesses with no walk in presence and manufacturer direct sales still serve those who want to buy models. What would kill it is if the demand evaporated but I can't see that happening. I do think the number of buyers is less than it once was but I suspect it's a relatively stable market and many of those who indulge in the hobby are willing to spend a lot which makes them attractive to retailers.

 

I think there is a bigger picture, it isn't just model shops losing business to online shops, it seems to be pretty much par for the course. There are tendencies for retailers to blame it on this that and everything else (such as a certain political issue) but less so to recognise that online shopping is very slick and that an increasing number of people actually prefer to shop on-line and use their leisure time for things other than walking around shops. We now have 7 day delivery from some online businesses, next day delivery up until quite late at night in some cases and the comfort of very good returns policies. I buy a lot of books and am a bit of a hifi enthusiasts. In both cases I can access far, far more choice online than any bricks and mortar shop, prices are attractive and it is way more convenient. And do you have to wait longer. If I suddenly had an urge to buy a book I could search it online, order it and receive it tomorrow. I work in London, if I want to go shopping I have to wait for the weekend in many cases, I can go shopping 24/7 online if I want to so in many cases it is actually quicker to shop online.

 

None of which is to say I don't want bricks and mortar shops to survive, but I bet a few of those bricks and mortar shops rely on online sales to make things worth their while so it is nothing like as simple as online shopping = bad even for bricks and mortar model shops. Ultimately, if some businesses are able to thrive by being more competitive I really don't see why that is a bad thing.

[GNR Dave]

Supporting your local model shop is all well and good, but a lot easier if your LHS is large and well stocked like Rails or Hattons.

My local shop is Janes Trains in Tooting. It's an hour round trip on my bike, nearer two hours on public transport. Probably quicker by car, but local parking is virtually impossible.

Jane and her team are wonderful people. Very friendly and knowledgeable, and would bend over backwards to help their customers.

But it's a small shop and the ranges held in stock are of necessity, limited. If I was after the latest marvel from Bachmann or Hornby, fine. But if I'm after GWR spear fencing in O gauge, or a white metal wotsit to correct my thingamybob, probably not.

There must be tens of thousands of low price items aimed at railway modellers that a small shop would not stock due to space limitations and too small margins. By shopping on line I can have my hearts desire within a few days from anywhere in the world.

And I'm sorry, but on price, I'd rather as much of MY money stayed in MY pocket as possible. I cannot justify 'throwing away' a wad of cash just to help a local shop make more money when my chosen 'box shifter' has the same loco 20% cheaper.    

[frobisher]

So retailers are effectively threatened, indirectly that if they don't tow the party line they can forget being supplied in future.

I can't see Heljan turning round to the likes of Hattons and refusing to supply them, either way it stinks of price fixing and dirty tricks.

It's exactly the same regime implemented by Bachmann, and the big names have towed the line with that. Basically, you're confusing a retailer's right to sell at any price they like (which they can...) with a non-existent right to be supplied. It allows the production runs to be spread around perhaps more effectively rather than the current situation of filling Hatton's bargain bins...

[Godfrey Glyn]

Supporting your local model shop is all well and good, but a lot easier if your LHS is large and well stocked like Rails or Hattons.

My local shop is Janes Trains in Tooting. It's an hour round trip on my bike, nearer two hours on public transport. Probably quicker by car, but local parking is virtually impossible.

Jane and her team are wonderful people. Very friendly and knowledgeable, and would bend over backwards to help their customers.

But it's a small shop and the ranges held in stock are of necessity, limited. If I was after the latest marvel from Bachmann or Hornby, fine. But if I'm after GWR spear fencing in O gauge, or a white metal wotsit to correct my thingamybob, probably not.

There must be tens of thousands of low price items aimed at railway modellers that a small shop would not stock due to space limitations and too small margins. By shopping on line I can have my hearts desire within a few days from anywhere in the world.

And I'm sorry, but on price, I'd rather as much of MY money stayed in MY pocket as possible. I cannot justify 'throwing away' a wad of cash just to help a local shop make more money when my chosen 'box shifter' has the same loco 20% cheaper.    

 

I don't know Jane's Trains in Tooting, I must go out of my way one day soon to visit it, thank you for alerting me to its existence.  I am sure she will appreciate that, despite you taking advantage of her good service and knowledge you prefer not to buy from her. I am always amazed by the total lack of tact and diplomacy exhibited by some members of the hobby - I have visited quite a few shops in my time and have heard 'customers' in a number of shops telling the shop staff that they could have bought an item much cheaper elsewhere. If I was the owner at the end of such comments I might very well escort them off the premises!!

 

Happy days!

 

Godfrey

[Mark Saunders]

When you are standing in a shop the postage is free!

 

Mark Saunders

[Graham456]

When you are standing in a shop the postage is free!

 

Mark Saunders

And it's not shaken to bits by a delivery driver, stomped on by a sorter, and in most places you can see it run before you go home, even the toy fairs around me have test track come layout you can talk nicely to to run them

[adb968008]

When you are standing in a shop the postage is free!

 

Mark Saunders

But the travel card costs more.

[bike2steam]

But the travel card costs more.

 

To right, it costs me a gallon of diesel to get to my nearest decent model railway shop, and back, and no public transport.