KRModels announce a GT3 Model

[chris p bacon]

4 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Based on your eloquent posting history on this thread it strikes me that you and KR have been trolling each other in equal measure

 

Trolling

Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community. Basically, a social media troll is someone who purposely says something controversial in order to get a rise out of other users.

 

If you'd like to point out and quote to me where I have trolled KR models in this thead I'd be most grateful.   But as you'll be unable to do so,  I will reiterate that before parting with a couple of hundred quid to an unknown presence on the internet based in another country who only seems to use Facebook as an advertising medium, I wanted to know where my monies were going.   I reread this thread to note that at no time did I troll KR but did ask questions,  which were generally answered but at the same time others were sidestepped.  The fact that KR seems unable to answer some basic questions and 'threw his toys from the pram' isn't down to me but to himself and his perceived right to secrecy in business. 

 

4 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Nevertheless I’m sure that the loss of your custom will be devastating.

 

I doubt KR will give a toss. 

[polybear]

15 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

If the EP looked good I was going to order, I even sold some stuff on Ebay to fund it. But quite frankly I'm f****d if I am now.

 

Short, Succinct,  To the point. 

Crispy, I like your style....

 

15 hours ago, LU Standard Stock said:

I was really interested in an RTR GT3, been wanting one for years. But I must say that is quite an attitude for a manufacturer to have. I think I'll pass. I can only imagine the storm if Hattons had reacted to the critical comments about the 4 & 6 wheel carriages in the same manner.

 

Just imagine what the attitude to any potential warranty returns could be.

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Just imagine what the attitude to any potential warranty returns could be.

 

Anyone want to ask KR what the warranty situation is?  

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Anyone want to ask KR what the warranty situation is?  

 

I think that he will tell you - in no uncertain terms - that he has covered this earlier in the thread!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[gary_lner]

57 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Anyone want to ask KR what the warranty situation is?  

I asked about potential issues with models etc. And was told that there will be a number of extra models produced to cover such problems and would be dealt with in the UK.

[adb968008]

 

On 13/10/2019 at 22:20, Colin_McLeod said:

LU I agree but it's probably water off a duck's back to KR.

 

I'm still undecided about purchasing a GT3. My decision will be based on the model so I have to ignore KR's attitude and look beyond that, but unfortunately that same attitude makes it difficult for me to get the information I need to make my decision.

 

 

 

I am somewhat concerned if the pre-sales attitude extends to after sales customer care too. If I had a problem i’d worry it would be ugly or worse, just nothing.

But that said, he’s delivered an EP, when he said, credit where due.

Edited October 14, 2019 by adb968008

[mdvle]

14 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The problem is that this is not an EP. It is a "Test Print" whatever that is supposed to be.

Some time ago we were shown the tooling under way. Now we seem to have gone backwards.

 

It would be a 3D print from the CAD, likely used to have something to display at the show given that (per a previous post referencing Facebook) the EP is not expected for another 3 weeks.

[GWR-fan]

Keith has taken a very professional attitude towards the technical development of the model,  although it would seem that the same old Keith lurks below the surface.  He simply cannot cope with criticism,  most of it provided to achieve a positive outcome for all or even just to get some pertinent detail of the project.  His response has rarely been amiable unless you are a purchaser of the product and in many instances has been ignored or downright provocative to any who may criticise the project.  His latest posting shows that a leopard can never change its spots.  From the outset the attitude has always been that he is doing us a favour by releasing the model.  

 

Keith should be commended for the effort in releasing a one-off prototype,  but given his personality,  many will be put off purchasing the product simply because of the arrogance shown in dealing with any who would dare offer criticism.   He wants us to fund his dream and no doubt would like further funding in the future for other dream projects he may have in mind,  but to gain confidence in the market there needs to be a concerted effort in him restraining from his normal attribute of attacking any who oppose him.  He needs to really chill out and appreciate that not everything he does is acceptable to all and when one may be funding a project of his or is a potential funder he needs to treat all with dignity and respect and not as the saying goes, "bite the hand that feeds you".

 

Keith has received a lot of praise and a lot of criticism.  He is funding a model in a time that has brought such a funding method under a cloud of suspicion,  so he really needs to appreciate that not all will be unconditionally awed with such a project,  given the funding model and that to attract buyers the personality of the manufacturer is as important as the model itself.  I suggest in future that he bite his tongue and refrain from making provocative responses to criticism.  Looking at the history of this project,  most criticism has resulted directly from his refusal to detail any aspect of the project other than direct technical details.  His lack of production detail,  his ability to manage such a project and business details other than a post office box in a foreign country have raised the heckles of suspicion of potential "investors" in the project.  Many are not as willing to dive in the deep end as are many of those of his fan club who regularly laud his praises but remember the fairy tale of the emperor and his new suit of clothes.  Hopefully,  this time Keith has a competent tailor.  My suggestion is that Keith perhaps engage an ameniable representative who is able to present any details or development of the project and refrain from making personal comment to criticism. 

 

I believe Keith to be a very competent technical person but lacks the ability to interact in a personal way with others when confronted with criticism.  He needs to appreciate that he is not doing us all a favour by releasing this model or any other future models.  I have not seen this attitude from others who are in the manufacturing or commissioning business other than one noted example who had a history of poor interaction with the public and is no longer in business.  The product sells itself,  but the person who stands behind the product is just as important to the success of a project.  I hope that Keith sees this initial project as part of a steep learning curve in how to deal with the public and that such an experience will ensure the future release of many great models.

[cctransuk]

8 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Keith has received a lot of praise and a lot of criticism.  He is funding a model .......

 

Ahh - but he isn't; he's asking other modellers to fund it !

 

If he were spending his own money he could be as objectionable as he wished - but he isn't, and that brings with it a duty to act in a businesslike and open manner.

 

He can't have it both ways.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[gary_lner]

9 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

It would be a 3D print from the CAD, likely used to have something to display at the show given that (per a previous post referencing Facebook) the EP is not expected for another 3 weeks.

It didn't feel or look like a 3d print when I picked it up as you could see the sections from each part of the tooling that we saw pictures off. It's not unommon for test prints of moulds to be on display before a full EP Rails did the same with their terrier not long after that was announced. Maybe these parts will be used on the EP in a few weeks time.

[Pre Grouping fan]

If it is off the tooling which the pictures seem to suggest rather than a 3D print because the finish was too good unless it's a high end printer. It should be called a test shot rather than print really to differentiate the two. 

[adb968008]

Looking at the close ups, in email, online and facebook.. I can see its drilled for things like handrails.. I’m not sure a 3D print would goto that detail, similarly the image outline looks smooth... i’m be leaning towards it being off the tooling not a 3D printer.

 

I would ask though, are the headcode discs moulded on like the number plate is ?

Edited October 15, 2019 by adb968008

[96701]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Looking at the close ups, in email, online and facebook.. I can see its drilled for things like handrails.. I’m not sure a 3D print would goto that detail, similarly the image outline looks smooth... i’m be leaning towards it being off the tooling not a 3D printer.

 

I would ask though, are the headcode discs moulded on like the number plate is ?

I did have hold of the body at the Great Electric Train Show at MK. I don't recall seeing any discs on the front, and I think had I seen any, I would have wondered what train it was supposed to be pulling, so although I cannot specifically deny seeing any, I'm firmly of the opinion that they aren't moulded.

[KR Models]

On 13/10/2019 at 21:19, Darius43 said:

 

Based on your eloquent posting history on this thread it strikes me that you and KR have been trolling each other in equal measure.  Nevertheless I’m sure that the loss of your custom will be devastating.

 

Darius

My whole profit margin is riding on his purchase.  I wait with bated breath.

[KR Models]

On 14/10/2019 at 10:34, cctransuk said:

 

I think that he will tell you - in no uncertain terms - that he has covered this earlier in the thread!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks John yes I did.  

[truffy]

46 minutes ago, KR Models said:

Thanks John yes I did.  

But you still haven't addressed the question as to why you're not using a tried-and-tested 4-6-0 mechanism for a 4-6-0 locomotive.

 

I'm curious only because it seems a more logical and stress-free approach (from a very much potential customer).

Edited October 15, 2019 by truffy

[KR Models]

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, truffy said:

But you still haven't addressed the question as to why you're not using a tried-and-tested 4-6-0 mechanism for a 4-6-0 locomotive.

 

I'm curious only because it seems a more logical and stress-free approach (from a very much potential customer).

The gearbox I posted a while took such criticism that we altered it, from a tried and tested model.  So we're having two versions of the gearbox built which we intend to exhaustively test to see which performs the best.  Tried and tested may be ok, but can we improve on it.  Things like less stress in the corners, less wear and tear in the long run.  I want the model to outlast me, the clock is ticking down.  

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, KR Models said:

My whole profit margin is riding on his purchase.  I wait with bated breath.

 

 It's no wonder you hide yourself away. 

 

1 hour ago, KR Models said:

Thanks John yes I did. 

 

Although you've failed to mention your 're-stocking fee' should you provide a faulty product.  

Edited October 15, 2019 by AY Mod

[KR Models]

 

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Although you've failed to mention your 're-stocking fee' should you provide a faulty product.  

For a faulty product, it would be a full replacement, not a repair.  However, if you change your mind and no longer want one, we would issue a full refund less the restocking fee.  But seeing as you don't want one ???

[Ryde-on-time]

15 minutes ago, KR Models said:

For a faulty product, it would be a full replacement, not a repair.  However, if you change your mind and no longer want one, we would issue a full refund less the restocking fee.  But seeing as you don't want one ???

But as it is illegal for UK companies to charge a restocking fee to consumers you should perhaps be upfront about this fee. It will not be expected

Some of your customers might not realise that presumably Canadian consumer laws apply to any purchase and I don’t suppose many here are familiar with them

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ryde-on-time
spelling!

[oleander]

On 13/10/2019 at 22:20, Colin_McLeod said:

LU I agree but it's probably water off a duck's back to KR.

 

I'm still undecided about purchasing a GT3. My decision will be based on the model so I have to ignore KR's attitude and look beyond that, but unfortunately that same attitude makes it difficult for me to get the information I need to make my decision.

Hi Colin

I am the same as you . Unsure about purshasing. Several factors the big one being crowd funding. Second is the price its not cheap when compaired against other 4-6-0 steam locos . I hope to see a running protype at Warley . If its good then I think I will order one .
I did see the body shells at the GETs and was impressed.
A question to KR models . The colour the body shells were in is a kind of red oxide colour .Is this the final colour ?

John

On 13/10/2019 at 22:20, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

 

[oleander]

2 minutes ago, Ryde-on-time said:

But as it is illegal for UK companies to charge a restocking fee to consumers you should perhaps be upfront the fee. Some of your customers might not realise that presumably Canadian consumer laws apply to any purchase and I don’t suppose many here are familiar with them

 

This was talked about in the first few pages of this thread and was never answered .

I was told the models will come from China direct to the Uk.  A faulty loco only has to be sent back to the UK.

The company is registered in Canada . Also KR models does use a UK web domaine not a Canadian one . So I think it is a fair question to ask does the UK remote sell act apply here.  I wish I knew the answer . May be KR models will lets us know if he has to go by the UK remote selling act

 

John

[Ryde-on-time]

4 minutes ago, oleander said:

 

This was talked about in the first few pages of this thread and was never answered .

I was told the models will come from China direct to the Uk.  A faulty loco only has to be sent back to the UK.

The company is registered in Canada . Also KR models does use a UK web domaine not a Canadian one . So I think it is a fair question to ask does the UK remote sell act apply here.  I wish I knew the answer . May be KR models will lets us know if he has to go by the UK remote selling act

 

John

To my knowledge, the contract is with a Canadian company so that is what matter. The UK website domain is irrelevant 

There are plenty of chinese companies that sell goods online and despatch from a UK warehouse, but the rights of any purchaser are governed by chinese laws

With KR Models I would be confident that Canadian consumer laws apply (although judging by their attitude on here one might be lucky to be given those voluntarily. They must realise it would be expensive to enforce them!)

[GWR-fan]

The consumer laws under which the sales proceed really needs to be verified, is it UK law or Canadian law?    I found this quite interesting - 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

 

In particular the following  -  

 

Quote:  "

For distance or off-premises sales  Key information which the trader must provide includes:

*a description of the goods, service or digital content, including how long any commitment will last on the part of the consumer 

*the total price of the goods, service or digital service or the manner in which the price will be calculated if this can’t be determined

*how you will pay for the goods or services and when they will be provided to you

*all additional delivery charges and other costs (and if these charges can't be calculated in advance, the fact that they may be payable)

*details of who pays for the cost of returning items if you have a right to cancel and change your mind

*details of any right to cancel - the trader also needs to provide, or make available, a standard cancellation form to make cancelling easy (although you aren’t under any obligation to use it)

*information about the seller, including their geographical address and contact details and the address and identity of any other trader for whom the trader is acting

*information on the compatibility of digital content with hardware and other software that the trader is aware of (or can reasonably be expected to be aware of)."  (end quote) 

 

 

As regards information about the seller as mentioned above,  has the manufacturer complied with the law as regards providing a post office box number as a "geographical address",  details of who pays the cost of returning items plus the provision or making available of a standard cancellation form?  Releasing a new model to the market really does open up a Pandora's box of red tape, made more complicated due the the country the goods will be delivered from and the registered country of the manufacturer.  Hopefully,  all will go well but with a reported production run of a thousand or more models,  conceivably there will be a few returns or warranty claims due either quality control issues or intransit damage.  I cannot see every model being personally examined or tested prior dispatch to the customer.   I am sure that Keith would like to have direct personal control over distribution as Locomotion discovered some months ago that outsourcing to "professionals" can lead to major dramas.  

 

[PMP]

Manitoba's and BC's consumer info here, looks like different provinces may have different consumer rights. Similarities to the UK in that you should return it in as new condition with associated packaging. In Manitoba and BC a vendor can charge for restocking a return. In BC it looks like you're not expected to pay the shipping costs for the return of a faulty item.

https://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/consumer-help/problem-with-an-online-purchase/

https://www.gov.mb.ca/consumerinfo/initiatives/shopping/returns-and-exchanges.html

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by PMP