RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted October 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2019 It’s as clear as mud. Yet anyone asking for clarification is labelled as trouble maker!?! Although it is good to see progress with the tooling etc I still don’t think I would order a model from KR Models simply because of Keiths temper and attitude. My dealing with Asian countries are not extensive but I do know that the worst thing you can do loose your temper, shout or display the kind of attitude Keith has shown when asked to clarify simple things like the warranty. Until the models are complete and in a container I will always have doubts about this (or any future) project being delivered to investors 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Ryde-on-time said: Until the models are complete and in a container I will always have doubts about this (or any future) project being delivered to investors Until I see pictures of happy punters holding their models I will continue to have doubts re the project. Overnight points have been raised that should have been addressed months ago. We now seem to be re-hashing them all over again. I think I suggested setting up a UK distribution channel using a known and trusted "name" but of course that suggestion was ignored by Keith. Look where we are as a result. I worked for a company that regarded the legal requirements as the minimum. To get and keep a name you need to be better than that. As a newcomer you certainly need to aim to be seen to be offering a cast iron warranty and return service. If you cannot do that people will draw there own conclusion. Simples. Bernard 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Personally, I have no doubt that the product will be delivered and as good as it can be. I believe Keith to be technically competent but really wish he would improve his public persona as I do not think the GT3 will be a one off run as he has dreams of other locomotive projects to pursue. His desire for complete privacy from the beginning raised the ire of many and considering his funding model, personal secrecy is not something that crowd funders want to see. You cannot ask for several hundred thousand pounds of other peoples' money and remain anonymous. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted October 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, GWR-fan said: Personally, I have no doubt that the product will be delivered and as good as it can be. I believe Keith to be technically competent but really wish he would improve his public persona as I do not think the GT3 will be a one off run as he has dreams of other locomotive projects to pursue. His desire for complete privacy from the beginning raised the ire of many and considering his funding model, personal secrecy is not something that crowd funders want to see. You cannot ask for several hundred thousand pounds of other peoples' money and remain anonymous. Buyers seem to want clarification about their rights, and confirmation that Canadian consumer rights will apply (and perhaps it would be good to know what they are as I don't suppose many people here will be familiar with them), that has nothing to do with personal secrecy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Such a model has the capacity to sell at least 4000 models in RTR. Crowdfunding is keeping these numbers (said to be around 1000) rather low. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, JSpencer said: Such a model has the capacity to sell at least 4000 models in RTR. Crowdfunding is keeping these numbers (said to be around 1000) rather low. Expect them to appear on thief bay for roughly the price of a couple of limbs or a small child. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, JSpencer said: Such a model has the capacity to sell at least 4000 models in RTR. Crowdfunding is keeping these numbers (said to be around 1000) rather low. Does it? If the model was really that popular, with the prospect of selling that many units, why hasn't anyone else decided to do it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, mdvle said: Does it? If the model was really that popular, with the prospect of selling that many units, why hasn't anyone else decided to do it? Because it would take about 2 years to sell all 4000 units and sales depend also a lot on the model being pretty perfect too. When Heljan did a beauty it sold, they hanged around a bit when the model was flawed. GT3 does not offer much for variations. You would put up say between 300 to 500K producing a batch of 4000 models. Edited October 21, 2019 by JSpencer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted October 21, 2019 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2019 Single livery models don't shift in anything like those sorts of numbers these days. The oft given number of around 100,000 active modellers would mean 4% of modellers buying one, very doubtful! 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, JSpencer said: Such a model has the capacity to sell at least 4000 models in RTR. Crowdfunding is keeping these numbers (said to be around 1000) rather low. 3 hours ago, mdvle said: Does it? If the model was really that popular, with the prospect of selling that many units, why hasn't anyone else decided to do it? If the model was that popular then KR Models would have 4,000 orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleander Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 saying that Heljan's Lion and Kesteral prototype loco's had several run . While I dont know what each run was. I would have thought they would have been in tripel numbers. From my own experance there has all ways been a keen appetite for odd ball prototype Locos. I think 4000 is bit high. If a main stream manufactor had anounced GT3 we would have seen severl thousand sold. But I dont think 4000. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2019 Kestrel was 4000 models, much to the disappointment of those who invested in them when the run was announced at 2000. No matter, I've just made a small profit on one which helps to pay for the other, eventually Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
friscopete Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Never mind the GT3 what ever car that is ..Porsche?. just make the shay .Americans have a much better class of viperous comment that make ours seem like a n old gents club moaning about a woman being admitted. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said: If the model was that popular then KR Models would have 4,000 orders. Crowdfunding and the rather limited promotion are doubtlessly keeping numbers lower than expected. It should be possible to shift 2000, 3000 within a couple of years, 4000 max. Unless the first release has issues that devalue the model. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 14 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said: If the model was that popular then KR Models would have 4,000 orders. I apologise for repeating that I have not ordered one. If an established manufacturer had announced it, I would have, like a shot. Judging by the comments on here, I’m not the only one. I’m sure the number of orders will be lower than the number of people interested in a model GT3. Some extra for the doubters might seem a good idea but the question is, how many? I quite understand KR’s plan of producing the number ordered plus a few extra to cover individual returns; it removes the risk of being lumbered with unsold models. I hope the project is a success. If it is and I fail to get one, well, so be it. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Matt C Posted October 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2019 I have visions of at least one or two members, sitting on hands, fearsly gripping seats or wearing large mittens to stop them reaching for credit cards while that little voice whispers in there ears "go on, you know you want one, do it DO IT! IF I had spare cash that I wouldn't mind if I lost, I'd order one. . But sadly I dont. . . Those evil Irish boys at Acurascale got to me first. . "Deltic. . . Go on, you know you want one, or two, or three or f. . . Go on Do it DO IT ! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, JSpencer said: Crowdfunding and the rather limited promotion are doubtlessly keeping numbers lower than expected. It should be possible to shift 2000, 3000 within a couple of years, 4000 max. Unless the first release has issues that devalue the model. Is limited promotion an issue? Yes. Is crowdfunding an issue? Yes. But unless you have healthy finances in this era of an abundance of new releases each year a producer simply can't produce in the thousands in the hope that they will eventually sell out in several years. Even if you have healthy finances that is a way to achieve financial troubles. It is obvious that the market has changed, and not only in the increase in the number of producers of models and the number of models being released each year. Looking at what is being announced (and by whom) it is apparent that the price increases in China over the last decade are influencing things, note that Heljan no longer appears to be interested in doing the less known prototypes and has shifted it's focus to more mainstream projects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, mdvle said: Is limited promotion an issue? Yes. Is crowdfunding an issue? Yes. But unless you have healthy finances in this era of an abundance of new releases each year a producer simply can't produce in the thousands in the hope that they will eventually sell out in several years. Even if you have healthy finances that is a way to achieve financial troubles. It is obvious that the market has changed, and not only in the increase in the number of producers of models and the number of models being released each year. Looking at what is being announced (and by whom) it is apparent that the price increases in China over the last decade are influencing things, note that Heljan no longer appears to be interested in doing the less known prototypes and has shifted it's focus to more mainstream projects. Like LMS and Southern diesel shunters, as well as the PWMs. I doubt you could find many things as obscure as the latter. Yes. I know it's part of a commission, but I reckon that Heljan must be putting a very large commitment towards them. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, mdvle said: But unless you have healthy finances in this era of an abundance of new releases each year a producer simply can't produce in the thousands in the hope that they will eventually sell out in several years. Even if you have healthy finances that is a way to achieve financial troubles. Not to mention that, while initial models might sell at the RRP, after the first flush of youth they often tend to get discounted to lure in sales to the floating voters. So you cannot assume that the revenue will be proportional to the sales. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2019 although if I were Keith and had confidence in my design I'd order a few extra models and gamble on the model being well received. In this case a few extra ones released to the market could command a premium to those who missed out first time round....... 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 42 minutes ago, mdvle said: Is limited promotion an issue? Yes. Is crowdfunding an issue? Yes. But unless you have healthy finances in this era of an abundance of new releases each year a producer simply can't produce in the thousands in the hope that they will eventually sell out in several years. Even if you have healthy finances that is a way to achieve financial troubles. It is obvious that the market has changed, and not only in the increase in the number of producers of models and the number of models being released each year. Looking at what is being announced (and by whom) it is apparent that the price increases in China over the last decade are influencing things, note that Heljan no longer appears to be interested in doing the less known prototypes and has shifted it's focus to more mainstream projects. I don't disagree with that. Limited Promotion and Crowdfunding can certainly be issues. Price is more debatable and comes with perceived value of the model in question. If it gets rave reviews about being definitive, people will climb over one and other to get it. Though this will be for a limited period just after release and until the next fad comes along. Of course if its a lemon and the manufacturer produced an additional 1000 units to satisfy post release demand, they may find themselves with money tied up. 2000 units is probably a good production figure balance for the GT3, providing of course that you have the financial capital to pay for the additional 1000 non crowdfunded units and you succeed in keeping the price at the current market bench mark (I;e just under £200). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
friscopete Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 The loco would look great in Pennsy colours with a proper Pennsy Tender ...just saying ..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said: Like LMS and Southern diesel shunters, as well as the PWMs. I doubt you could find many things as obscure as the latter. Yes. I know it's part of a commission, but I reckon that Heljan must be putting a very large commitment towards them. They are only arriving as a commission, where the financial viability is substantially different as you have eliminated one layer of costs from the model. It is doubtful Heljan is putting anything towards them. While we obviously don't know the details of the contracts these are models that are either unlikely to have a second run, or if they do it will be many years later. This means the goal will be to cover the tooling and other production costs on the initial run. Or another way, you don't remain a financially healthy company putting up say £50k+ with the expectation that you may be able to recoup that investment if there is demand for a second run 3+ years after spending the money. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleander Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, RedgateModels said: although if I were Keith and had confidence in my design I'd order a few extra models and gamble on the model being well received. In this case a few extra ones released to the market could command a premium to those who missed out first time round....... I asked that question at the GET show. was told No. When the book is closed there will be a few extra for warrenty issues and thats it. I surggested they could be sold at a higher price so the buyer would have no risk . That was a No. They did say they will auction off the protypes and test models . Not sure what that will entail and when that will happen . If I was him . Make an extra 100 say . Real cost nothing as tooling and shipping is covered. Then sell them on Ebay. If the model is as good as he says well they should go way above RRP. How amny people would love to have an APT E to stick on Ebay . John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, oleander said: Snipped If I was him . Make an extra 100 say . Real cost nothing as tooling and shipping is covered. Then sell them on Ebay. If the model is as good as he says well they should go way above RRP. How amny people would love to have an APT E to stick on Ebay . John What an interesting suggestion! I guess you could always back your theory and order half a dozen yourself and sell them on eBay . . . If not, why should Keith risk 100? Stan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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