Irish Rail puts out tender for pre-owned DMU stock

[KeithHC]

11 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Hmmm.

 

It seems odd that someone would actively seek second hand rolling stock rather than just specifying what they wanted from the stock and going for the best deal.

 

I'm sure they wouldn't put out a tender when they already knew what they want and who from. and word it accordingly, would they?

Unless of course they are following EU procurement rules.

 

Keith

[Talltim]

1 hour ago, KeithHC said:

Another option possible what about the D train class 230 it is technically second hand.

 

Keith 

Do they have enough vehicles to make enough trains? I’m sure the tender is cleverly worded enough to preclude them anyway.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Talltim

[TravisM]

6 hours ago, KeithHC said:

Another option possible what about the D train class 230 it is technically second hand.

 

Keith 

 

The D Train using the surplus ex LT D Stock but it’s not been without issues and technically unproven apart from their use with LT.  The Class 185’s are reliable from a reputable company, so a no brainier for IR.

[corneliuslundie]

Could one reason for going for second hand stock be that it exists? For new stock, and a fairly small order, IE will be in a long queue.

Jonathan

[Davexoc]

14 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Could one reason for going for second hand stock be that it exists? For new stock, and a fairly small order, IE will be in a long queue.

Jonathan

Or may be to do with emissions regulations. Secondhand isn't going to have to meet the latest standards, so possibly cheaper to maintain?

 

Dave

[KeithHC]

One wonders what is going on as they have several classes stored out of use that are relatively modern.

 

Keith

[Talltim]

The stored 27xx DMUs are Alsthom built and were not reliable, they are of the same era as the class 180s and 175s. While the 175s have not been too bad, except catching fire a bit too much the 180s have been a liability.

They did issue a tender to get them back in operation, but they only had one bid which was far too high 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Talltim

[newbryford]

Is this project back on the agenda?

Or still platform end wibble?

 

Cheers

Mick

 

[south_tyne]

Sorry for coming to the party late but this is an interesting proposal and fascinating discussion. Pardon my ignorance, but, in modern times, is there any precedent of IE importing stock from the UK and re-gauging for use on the Irish network?

 

 

 

[lmsforever]

Northern will many two and three car units available this year cheap to run and go anywhere trains.

[Colin_McLeod]

6 hours ago, south_tyne said:

Sorry for coming to the party late but this is an interesting proposal and fascinating discussion. Pardon my ignorance, but, in modern times, is there any precedent of IE importing stock from the UK and re-gauging for use on the Irish network?

 

 

 

Yes.

Goes back to 1940s when LMS sent locos and stock to replace items damaged in the Belfast blitz.

 

In 1981 NIR purchased second hand mk2 coaches. Some of these are preserved back in England and their original gauge.

 

Railbus RB3 is another became on NIR

[south_tyne]

5 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Yes.

Goes back to 1940s when LMS sent locos and stock to replace items damaged in the Belfast blitz.

 

In 1981 NIR purchased second hand mk2 coaches. Some of these are preserved back in England and their original gauge.

 

Railbus RB3 is another became on NIR

 

Thanks Colin. 

 

I knew NIR had mk2s but hadn't realised they were second hand rather than being built new. 

 

I think I know the answer to this, but just to confirm, am I right in thinking that the NIR 'multis' based on the Sprinter were purchased new? 

 

I'm sorry for asking what probably come across as extremely basic and simple questions, I'm just very sketchy on my NIR knowledge when compared to what I know and have read about CIE/IE. 

[black and decker boy]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

Is this project back on the agenda?

Or still platform end wibble?

 

Cheers

Mick

 

Suggestion elsewhere that IE now discounted the 185s as not enough available. TPE need to retain more apparently. 

 

Also the Liverpool to Nottingham may need 185s (or 195s) when it switches from EMT to either TPE or Northern.

[caradoc]

9 hours ago, south_tyne said:

Sorry for coming to the party late but this is an interesting proposal and fascinating discussion. Pardon my ignorance, but, in modern times, is there any precedent of IE importing stock from the UK and re-gauging for use on the Irish network?

 

 

 

 

In 1972 CIE bought some BR Mark 1 coaches and converted them into Generating Steam Vans.

 

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

I knew NIR had mk2s but hadn't realised they were second hand rather than being built new. 

 

I think I know the answer to this, but just to confirm, am I right in thinking that the NIR 'multis' based on the Sprinter were purchased new? ......................

The vast majority of Irish MkIIs - north and south of the border - were built new and only a handful were second hand ........... I guess the 'Sprinter' type railcars ( never called 'multiple units' in Ireland, by the way. ) you refer to were the 450 or 'Castle' class : these had new '455' / '317' style bodies on redundant Mk 1 underframes from this side of the water.

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 hours ago, south_tyne said:

I knew NIR had mk2s but hadn't realised they were second hand rather than being built new. 

They had both - they bought some new ones in the early 1970s to work with the 3 Hunslet Bo-Bo diesels. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_Mark_2#Northern_Ireland

[Colin_McLeod]

NIR had both new and second hand Mk2 coaches. The nine 450 class were new bodies but the power units were from the eight 70 class power cars and the 80 class power car that was damaged in the Hilden accident.

[wombatofludham]

One of the reasons I became interested in Irish railways, north and south, is the fascinating post-steam rolling stock permutations they had until fairly recently.

 

The Mk2 coach saga began with as others have said the 1969 NIR "Enterprise" sets, comprising coaches to a broadly Mk2b-c design purchased brand new.  They included some driving brake first (and I think standard) vehicles and a kitchen buffet, a brand new design not used on BR.  In the summer they would be worked top and tail by one of the three Hunslet built Class 101 locos but in winter a shorter rake would be worked push-pull by a Hunslet and with a driving trailer at the other end.  Originally NIR provided one train set and CIE the other.  These were followed by the legendary "80" class DEMUs, again a modified Mk2 design and probably the best train BR never had, these trains would have been perfect for what later became Regional Railways, but I digress.  These units were delivered as a mix of 2 and 3 car trains, the motor coach having a four bay seating area, a full width cab based on the PEP train moulding and an English Electric diesel electric power pack similar to the SR Thumpers.  The intermediate trailers and driving trailers (which had through gangways) were to a modified Mk2b design but had an intermediate door fitted to a seating bay to help loading times.  By the 1980s, NIR had suffered some vehicle losses to civil unrest, but was also experiencing significant traffic growth, and they purchased a number of second hand BR Mk2 b/c coaches, some of which were used to form a second "Enterprise" rake, and some of which were used to strengthen "80" class units.  One coach was also converted to become an "80" class driving trailer, and these ex-BR coaches were easily identified by not having the mid-coach entrance door. In the late 80s NIR also acquired the Mk2f coach that had been built as a prototype catering car using the "APT" interior fittings, and used it to provide catering on the second "Enterprise" set.  They also acquired a mini-buffet conversion which was also used from time to time.  In the 1980s NIR purchased three General Motors Class 071 type locos to improve cross border timings, and whereas the Hunslets provided ETH from the loco, these GMs did not, and as they were also not fitted with push-pull equipment, the brake driving vehicles were converted to have ETH generators on board to provide hotel power to the train.  NIR's final second hand Mk2 purchase was a rake of redundant Gatwick Express Mk2f coaches which had sporadic use on cross border and commuter extra services but which became a bit of a white-elephant having seen very little use.  They even purchased an ex Anglia DBSO and had it converted to work with the General Motors Class 201 locos which were then in charge of cross border services, but which never actually entered passenger service.

 

Moving to the Republic, they purchased a large fleet of Mk2d derived vehicles to upgrade their inter-city services but were significantly different to their British counterparts.  Firstly, they were provided with power from a generator van, secondly, the air conditioning was different, on a dual circuit and more reliable, thirdly, the fleet included a tranche of kitchen-buffet cars and finally a batch of composite cars, with an intermediate vestibule dividing standard and "super standard" compartments was built.  These went on to give a long and reliable service, although some of the composites were later demoted to all-standards.  One other notable feature of these trains was they were vacuum braked.  In the late 1980s, following two nasty accidents at Buttevant and Cherryville Junction, where trains contained wooden bodied coaches which did not perform well in the accidents, the Irish transport authorities mandated that wooden bodied carriages should be removed from service and Irish Rail purchased some second hand Mk2 a, b and c coaches which were regauged and put into service to phase out wooden bodied stock.  Again, as in the North, some were converted from ex-first class compartment stock into open standards and ran with modified Werkspoor generator-boiler vans to provide power for the vehicles.  The last British designed vehicles in the Republic were of course the large batch of Mk3 vehicles which apart from the generator luggage vans were pretty much as per the UK variant.  The exception was the final batch which was made up from kits supplied by BREL, but modified at Inchicore works to form commuter push-pull rakes to improve outer suburban Dublin services and replace some of the last plywood stock left in service.  These had hopper vents fitted to the windows as they were modified to pressure-ventilation, more seats, one less toilet per coach, and had a driving trailer at one end, fitted with General Motors cab controls to mimic the venerable Class 121 single cab loco used to power these trains.  The driving trailer also had an underfloor genset to power the on board services and the power doors the Irish Mk3 coaches were fitted with from new.  When the Mk3 push pull sets were replaced in the late 90s with DMUs, they moved for a while to medium distance Intercity services push-pull worked by GM Class 201 locos, including on occasions the cross border Enterprise service.

 

I was lucky enough to travel on the Irish network a few times in the 90s, including the "Hunslet Farewell" railtour, and got to sample a wide range of vehicles, including the 1950s "Park Royal" coaches, ex BR Mk2s north and south of the border, the truly iconic "80" class, and both Irish Mk2 and Mk3 designs.  Add in the largely American designed (and sounding) locos and it was truly a unique combination and surprisingly overlooked by British enthusiasts.  As for the sound of an 071/111 class loco at speed, think of a bass-baritone Deltic...

[Wickham Green]

Sorry, I'd forgotten quite how many Irish MkIIs were in fact second hand ............ but this one certainly wasn't - and is still very much in use ! ( Draught Guinness wasn't an original fitting, though.)