BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Bulleidboy100]

Maybe I need to watch the programme again - but Hornby's "sound" man was recording a real Terrier. Does this mean that Hornby will be offering a sound version? Rails of Sheffield have a sound version in all the current projected liveries.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Maybe he was moonlighting for Rails on his day off?

[Captain Kernow]

I watched it just now with CTMK. I thought the programme was fab.

 

I was also able to point out to CTMK what I wanted for Christmas on national TV! You don't get to do that very often in our hobby.

 

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

 - the sequence on the K&ESR showed RMWeb contributors' reservations about the side tank representation to be well-founded. 

 

The Nim.

 

Funny you should say that, because the first thing I noticed in the K&ESR was the recessed tank-top!

 

Possibly I'm weird that way. By the way, 32678 is inaccurate (!), having non-prototypical flush tank-cladding fixings inboard of the lining panel. Preservationalists!

 

The recessed tank top is very obvious from platform level because the Terrier is so small, a fact that became obvious to me when I stumbled across Boxhill last week (on the way to the loo!).

 

Sorry for those who have seen this picture before.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

Maybe I need to watch the programme again - but Hornby's "sound" man was recording a real Terrier. Does this mean that Hornby will be offering a sound version? Rails of Sheffield have a sound version in all the current projected liveries.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Hornby has announced a sound version. So, curious. 

 

Any proud owners care to say if, and if so where, there is room for a speaker?  

[GWR8700]

I really enjoyed this mini series by the BBC, James May was a good presenter as always.  He's a famous face who managed to make the hobby more approachable to the average viewer of this programme which is great exposure for the hobby.  Even though the programme portrayed a narrative based on Hornby's version of events I was glad that they gave Rails the chance to comment on the Terrier situation too.

A few minor gripes like others have said, not showing that the hobby is a more diverse group than the programme implied.

One thing that stuck out to me was how company's are trying to claim that certain locomotives are theirs and theirs alone.  I get that they want to avoid duplication but if you've not made your outdated model of xxxx for several years or its now part of the railroad range then you can't be annoyed with others for taking the initiative.  Hornby have no more of a right to produce a new Terrier than Dapol, just like Hattons have no more of a claim to the 66 than Hornby.  I thought it was rather ironic for the Hattons owner to complain about Hornby 'spitefully' reintroducing their budget 66 (aimed at a totally different market) when there is already a decent Bachmann version available which they saw as fair game to take on.  Bizarre.

Overall I thought it was great and I would like another series, I just need to sign the petition on www.goonbbcgiveusanotherseriesthisonewasverycheaptomakeandillevenhaveahaircutifyousayyes.co.uk

[Corbs]

16 minutes ago, GWR8700 said:

I thought it was rather ironic for the Hattons owner to complain about Hornby 'spitefully' reintroducing their budget 66 (aimed at a totally different market) when there is already a decent Bachmann version available which they saw as fair game to take on.  Bizarre.

 

Possibly more to do with deliberately pricing the Hornby one very low and producing it in the same liveries as the Hattons ones.

 

@oliver-rails maybe you should get on to 123-reg.co.uk and purchase www.goonbbcgiveusanotherseriesthisonewasverycheaptomakeandillevenhaveahaircutifyousayyes.co.uk

then make it link to the terrier pre-order page

Edited March 14, 2019 by Corbs

[AY Mod]

18 minutes ago, Corbs said:

goonbbcgiveusanotherseriesthisonewasverycheaptomakeandillevenhaveahaircutifyousayyes

 

Sadly it exceeds the character limit.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

No doubt Rails will have ordered the banners well in advance.

 

But the decision to deploy the banners - especially the Terrier banner -  facing outwards so that you saw them rising above the Hornby stand - might well have been taken after Rails saw the floorplan. SK's comment to Rails was that it would have been one thing if the banners were facing into Rails stand but this....

So why did Hornby carry pictures of the banners on one of their websites if they were so upset about them?  In any case the most prominent one above the Hornby stand was about buying in secondhand models and then to one side the one about the new NE railcar.  I can't really remember but weren't the banners double sided anyway - would seem rather self-defeating (for Rails) if they weren't.  Really it was a load of froth about very little except making a good story for tv.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nimbus said:

When Hornby's Terrier was announced to us, probably in a thread here, Simon's story was that preparation was underway when he left the company. It then stalled and one of his first questions on returning was why hadn't the work been followed through. If that amounted to more than collecting a few photos together, it would represent wasted effort and wages to let it be made redundant. What the competitive race has probably done though is remove scope for revision of errors in Hornby's design before committing to production - the sequence on the K&ESR showed RMWeb contributors' reservations about the side tank representation to be well-founded. It does seem, for all their investment in CAD workstations, what comes back from China in test shots may not meet the designers expectations. I'm not convinced the dome got re-worked!

 

The Nim.

The logic still doesn't necessarily fit tho' does it.  If - as was said at one point - it was 'developed' (i.e. developed and brought to production) in 9 months that implies that work started in March for a December announcement.  So it would seem to have taken some while to have got going again from an allegedly stalled project.  However nine months is hellish quick for a loco with so many detail variations, even worse than one of those 'standard' GWR engines , which poses fuirther questions when it comes to detail discrepancies.  Overall I wouldn't be surprised if the simple answer is indeed simple - it was got underway in response to Rails announcement (and then the 9 months would fit).

 

But at the end of it all the situation is simple - there are two 4mm scale, 00 gauge Terriers coming onto the market this year offering differing levels of detail accuracy (if Rails are as good as their word) and at different price points with one available from many outlets while the other is effectively only likely to be available from Rails. You pays your money and you takes your choice - based on your own criteria for what you want(and by the way Hornby's 32636 is not suitable in finer detail terms for the engine as it was running on BR in 1961 - back to choices).

[Markwj]

Have just watched I think Fran was right and next years range will be a shed load of 92's, Deltic's with some class 91's and even some 90's following on the wave from the sold out Bachmann model (my hope rather than pre-release data)! 

Although it could be in the short time frame between Simon starting and the 2019 range launch they had to go for some quick wins!

Who knows fingers crossed for a new series next year!

[JSpencer]

40 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Have just watched I think Fran was right and next years range will be a shed load of 92's, Deltic's with some class 91's and even some 90's following on the wave from the sold out Bachmann model (my hope rather than pre-release data)! 

Although it could be in the short time frame between Simon starting and the 2019 range launch they had to go for some quick wins!

Who knows fingers crossed for a new series next year!

 

I would be seriously surprised if anyone actually considers old obsolete tooling for 66, 92, 90, 91 and the Deltic (especially the Deltic) as serious effective competition for the all new state of the art ones about to appear. 

I don,t think Hattons need to get annoyed about the old Lima model being done in umpteen colours as a threat to the state of the art Hattons version in twice as many colours again. I do feel that these Hornby 66s will probably be an area that fails to shift.  Granted this part really is an experiment but does Hornby have the resources to support it if it fails? 

If we see shed loads of other the other obsolete types next year, I seriously don,t see people cancelling their state of the art versions for these. 

[NINJA]

After watching the show, my order for a Terrier will be placed with Rails to support them.

[Pteremy]

A happy and plausible outcome is that there are two different markets: the Hornby mass market, in Railroad and higher spec versions, and the high end RTR as being produced by Rails, Hatton's, Accurascale, Dapol, TMC etc.. Lets hope so. With all the understandable emphasis on locos I also hope that Hornby continue to produce excellent coaches. 'Retooling' the Gresleys to correct the mistakes, and provide a more realistic range, must be quick win. Some period I/II LMS coaches would support the emphasis on 'trains', as would earlier GWR - Toplights - or later - Sunshine Type I/II (rather than the Bachmann Yellow Disc).

 

So co-operation may be more productive for everyone, rather than false direct competition.

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

20 minutes ago, NINJA said:

After watching the show, my order for a Terrier will be placed with Rails to support them.

Good idea, that poor bloke from Rails looked skint, what with his £5m(?) a year turnover and Aston Martin!

 

As against Hornby, a mainstay of the hobby who are trying to rebuild after mismanagement and £30m of losses.

[Amand]

5 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Good idea, that poor bloke from Rails looked skint, what with his £5m(?) a year turnover and Aston Martin!

 

As against Hornby, a mainstay of the hobby who are trying to rebuild after mismanagement and £30m of losses.

Actually an F type Jaguar. If an Aston Martin is the full-fat model then the Jag is a RailRoad model!

[ruggedpeak]

2 minutes ago, Amand said:

Actually an F type Jaguar. If an Aston Martin is the full-fat model then the Jag is a RailRoad model!

Oops. In which case he needs the money.

[Edwardian]

45 minutes ago, NINJA said:

After watching the show, my order for a Terrier will be placed with Rails to support them.

 

Hopefully we are a mere few days from seeing if you have, thereby, also chosen the better model.  Rails has indicated that decorated samples are on the way.

[88D]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

No doubt Rails will have ordered the banners well in advance.

 

But the decision to deploy the banners - especially the Terrier banner -  facing outwards so that you saw them rising above the Hornby stand - might well have been taken after Rails saw the floorplan. SK's comment to Rails was that it would have been one thing if the banners were facing into Rails stand but this....

I thought Hornbywere very remiss on this. Their stand was low profile, literally, and lacked impact.  Rails banners showing outwards, not inwards? Straight forward advertising so that people from all over the show could see them. Rails outdid Hornby in this mini battle.

[jjb1970]

The part of the empire conspicuous by its absence was Corgi. LD clearly see's a future for Airfix, and I'm guessing the bits about Scalextric indicate that slot cars have a future in LD's plans. Hornby International was largely ignored except for a few glimpses of models in display units but that may well be because they decided (probably correctly) that the international range wasn't what most viewers of a BBC show would be interested in. The complete silence on Corgi was interesting though, Corgi are another iconic brand in the bubble of British model producers and collector hobbies and are probably just as loved as the Hornby brand. The Corgi range gives me the impression of having under performed for a long time.

[Right Away]

Apologies if this has been mentioned previously, but was there a similar debate of such magnitude over the release of the Adams Radial tank by two manufacturers a couple of years ago?

 

I seriously doubt Hornby are intentionally attempting to "put down" Hattons or Rails; it is not in their interest. As mentioned previously, personal budgets will dictate which models will be selected from the choices available.

 

I do feel that duplication of models is to some extent a "missed opportunity" for the modeller. With many new projects kept under wraps it is sometimes unavoidable, but it can appear that the outlay and investment might have been better utilised on an a hopefully individual project.

 

In that situation, everyone wins

 

 

[delticfan]

10 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

"Made him look a bit thick" ???

On the contrary, he appeared to really miffed at what is clearly a direct attempt to undermine his business plans.

He is the owner and he, through his company, has risked a very large amount of money in this venture.

 

Despite the supposed "different markets" and the notable differences in quality, detail and price, there will still be a certain degree of dilution of sales of the Hattons model. 

If Hattons retail price has been set very keenly (e.g. to wipe out any price advantage Bachmann could have), then even a modest dilution of sales caused by the cheap Hornby model could possibly jeopardise the profitability of Hattons efforts. I'm hoping not.

 

For years now , Hornby have only offered a couple of liveries each year on this low-rent ex-Lima 66.

All of a sudden, they've decided that this year there will be loads of livery options, mostly duplicating exactly the same liveries Hattons are doing this year.

You could'nt be more blatant about it.

 

As for the comment about retailers can't be manufacturers?

I suggest you look at Walthers.

There are plenty of examples of similar success in other types of business too.

 

 

Ron

Business is tough, if the box shifters can’t absorb punches like the Class 66 they need to go back to box shifting, I thought SK was right, as for dilution of the market for the model it’s just a risk to be taken.

[jjb1970]

I think the Class 66 is very different to the Terrier situation. The Hornby Railroad 66 is a completely different product than the Hattons model and personally I don't see why Hornby should be criticised for offering a cheaper, lower spec model which is still a good likeness of a 66 (if basic and lacking the various version specific adjustments and fine detail) for those who either don't want or can't afford the more expensive more detailed Hattons model. As others have commented the loser here is Bachmann as their 66 is caught in a pincer movement, too expensive to be a budget alternative to the Hattons model and not as good as the Hattons offer.

 

For the Terrier it is so transparent, I thought that SK's attempt to deny the obvious was at best disingenuous. I think they should just have been up front about what they were doing. Neither company has exclusive rights to the Terrier and it's not like Hornby are under any obligation not to step on any toes. The way SK tried to spin the whole affair came over as rather deceitful and manipulative to me. But that's just my opinion. On the other hand I don't know why Rails think Hornby are under any obligation to give them a call if they are planning to make a competitor to something Rails have announced either. The whole thing came over as rather petty and contrived on all sides.

[60027Merlin]

20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

More like 'The Office' than ever this week.   But as 'Ron' has already said at least the real reason for the move back to Margate came out - forget the emotive stuff and count the £s.  And in any case surely Hornby's spiritual home - if it has one at all - is Liverpool, not Margate!   The reaction of staff to the move back to Margate was interesting - no sign of any sort of 'welcome emotional return' and more a look of resignation.  But that sort of thing can set in when you're told that your about to embark on  second office location move within a couple of years; and it can leave folk wondering what will be coming next, a potential 'people management' problem.

 

An interesting among SK's office models was a 'Clan' - a subtle hint or just a case of happenstance?  Ah well it will give folk something to froth about - best start a separate thread for that one

 

Some years ago Simon Kohler regularly came up to Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh on an annual basis for a "Hornby Event" held over a Friday and a Saturday in the shop. When the Clan was still available the owners presented him with a model which they re-named Clan Kohler.

 

 

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Right Away said:

 

I seriously doubt Hornby are intentionally attempting to "put down" Hattons or Rails; it is not in their interest. 

 

 

 

Not sure what programme you were watching, but I was watching this one James May Episode 2

[Godfrey Glyn]

I thought the programme was very entertaining and it will have done Hornby no harm and, given the vulnerability of Hornby at the moment, I would say that it was a brave decision to let a TV crew (over which you have little or no influence as to what slant they put on the story) into a long term report on the firm. I would expect that what actually happened and what made it through the cutting room to the final programme might be quite different, thats reality TV. On that basis I sat back and enjoyed it. Nobody's reputation was shredded and it will have raised the profile of modelling amongst the general public.

With regard to the 'spats' I I would expect that Rails, Hattons and Hornby will have to get used to the new environment and that will not be easy for any of them when they are all chasing a declining market at a time of great financial uncertainty.

I have quite a few Bachmann Class 66s, I suspect I will buy at least two of the Hattons versions. However if I was buying for a child I would definitely buy the Hornby version - cheaper and far more robust. I suspect the bright range of colours and liveries will sell well in the toy shops and to people who would not buy the more detailed and expensive versions from Bachmann or Hattons (even if they knew about them). 

If there is an overlap and real competition for the 66 it will be between Bachmann and Hattons. In the final analysis its not so much how many of an item you sell but what profit you make on the total sales - remember BMC were selling loads of Minis and it was highly thought of car when introduced in 1959 but they were making a loss on each one.

We certainly live in interesting times and I, like many on RMweb, believe that we do need the long established companies to thrive, as well as the new entrants. 

 

Godfrey