Best height for an exhibition layout

[Julia]

 

The height of a layout for use at home only, should prioritise the operator, but for an exhibition layout, the priority is the audience, without them, you're just playing trains in a room with other exhibitors in formation. 

 

With this in mind you need to factor in everyone from wheel chair users to kids, to giant Dutch people. 

 

With this in mind, I'd say 900-1000mm is a good height. There is no right answer. My layout has dual height legs for 930mm and 1300mm. The later is the height for FREMO meets. 

 

J

[Nick C]

Just under eye height to a seated adult - i.e. someone in a wheelchair. That also means that you can sit to operate it, which as others have said, helps to avoid being on your feet all day. Bring a tall folding chair...

[MarcD]

The Layout I remembered seeing was "St Juliot"  based on the Bodmin and Wadebridge.

I have added a few photos.

 

Marc

Edited August 10, 2019 by Furness Wagon
hit the wrong button

[toolongtoremember]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

It's a matter of compromise to satisfy the range of possible viewers but you could say that a model railway is a work of art and the artist's concept of how it should be viewed trumps everything. For instance you might be relying on a building blocking the view of something the viewer shouldn't see. So, if you care about the viewing angle in that way then set it at the height you need, accepting that it might not suit everyone.

 

Obviously the layout can be set at different heights for working on it and viewing it. That shouldn't be a big problem. So a high viewing height doesn't necessarily mean it will be difficult or tiring to work on.

 

Seating or standing operation shouldn't make a difference to viewing height - you can buy or build a seat of the required height and transport it with the layout.

 

The seating could be height-adjustable and that might inspire the ultimate solution to exhibition viewing height: Mount the layout on gas struts so it can be raised and lowered on request!

 

The gas strut thing there isn't actually a bad call to be fair...if only they made them to be fine enough not to derail stock! 

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, Julia said:

The height of a layout for use at home only, should prioritise the operator, but for an exhibition layout, the priority is the audience, without them, you're just playing trains in a room with other exhibitors in formation. 

 

I wonder how many layouts at exhibitions are only ever operated at an exhibition and never used outside of an exhibition hall?  In my case, I'm building my home layout such that it will be able to be dismantled and exhibited, so it won't be a 'home only' layout, but equally I don't plan to worry to much about the audience, when and if I come to exhibit it, because I don't really view it as an 'exhibition layout'.  A couple of our club members have taken their home layout to a local exhibition on behalf of the club and therefore I think it's fair to say that I think the height should be designed to suit them.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Dungrange

[Kris]

As others have said, make the layout comfortable for you to operate. You'll be the one there for hours on end, not the punter who will look at it for 5 minutes or so. 

The other option is to set a view point that you want the average punter to see the layout at. If you want a passenger eye view layout set the height accordingly for the average height of person, if you want the view from a hill do likewise etc.

[Julia]

 

The number of people saying to disregard the experience of the paying public at exhibitions reminds me why it is that I don't go to many exhibitions any more. 

 

To everyone saying prioritise the height of the operator, I would like to suggest you borrow a wheel chair, and go to a model railway exhibition, and see how much you can actually see. How much you enjoy looking at layouts through a periscope. 

 

If you are taking your layout to an exhibition, the paying public come first, and not all of them are able bodied and/or tall. 

 

J

[Talltim]

On 09/08/2019 at 22:22, Nearholmer said:

Some very good advice about height to suit the owner/operator, but the other person to consider is the viewer, which isn’t easy!

 

Eye-height, even considering only adults, varies very widely. Wheelchair users have been mentioned, and at the other end of the scale are the really tall people, well over 6ft, so eye-height maybe over 66 inches.

 

There probably isn’t a perfect answer to meet all needs, as is proven by cash-machines, the height of  which is set very carefully, after much research, but which I find are always set a little bit too low to be ideal for my eye-height (I’m about 5’11” tall).

 

But, the screen height of a cash-machine is probably not a bad guide, if you want to cover the same demographic as banks try to cover. 

The problem I find with cash machines as a tall person is not that I can’t reach them, but that the way they are recessed means that my view of the  top half is cut off. Also ones with physical buttons beside the screens suffer from terrible parallax error when viewed at an angle 

[steve1]

“As others have said, make the layout comfortable for you to operate. You'll be the one there for hours on end, not the punter who will look at it for 5 minutes or so. ”

 

Absolutely correct.

 

And if you are standing behind it, take  a length of carpet or a rug to stand on.  It makes things a lot more comfortable.

 

steve

[Zomboid]

44 minutes ago, Julia said:

 

The number of people saying to disregard the experience of the paying public at exhibitions reminds me why it is that I don't go to many exhibitions any more. 

 

To everyone saying prioritise the height of the operator, I would like to suggest you borrow a wheel chair, and go to a model railway exhibition, and see how much you can actually see. How much you enjoy looking at layouts through a periscope. 

 

If you are taking your layout to an exhibition, the paying public come first, and not all of them are able bodied and/or tall. 

 

J

The problem with prioritising the audience is that your can only set the layout to one height, but the audience's eye level varies from a wheelchair user or smallish child (maybe on a box, maybe not) to a 6'6" adult. You can't provide the optimal height for everyone. Admittedly tall people can bend down in a way which shorter people can't gain height.

 

Since pleasing everyone is impossible, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that it should suit the people who have to interact with it for hours at a time in preference to those who interact for 5 minutes.

[Julia]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The problem with prioritising the audience is that your can only set the layout to one height, but the audience's eye level varies from a wheelchair user or smallish child (maybe on a box, maybe not) to a 6'6" adult. You can't provide the optimal height for everyone. Admittedly tall people can bend down in a way which shorter people can't gain height.

 

Since pleasing everyone is impossible, it doesn't seem unreasonable to say that it should suit the people who have to interact with it for hours at a time in preference to those who interact for 5 minutes.

 

You're basically saying that wheel chair bound people aren't welcome at railway exhibitions. 

 

Seriously, borrow a wheel chair, and see what it's like from this side.

 

J

[Clive Mortimore]

12 minutes ago, Julia said:

 

You're basically saying that wheel chair bound people aren't welcome at railway exhibitions. 

 

Seriously, borrow a wheel chair, and see what it's like from this side.

 

J

 

Hi Julia

 

From an earlier post of mine.

Quote

My present exhibition layout is table top height, and I sit down to operate it. I find standing all day then having a three or four hour drive after packing up very tiring. I think everyone would like to see me driving safely after a show where I am not too tired. The kids love it as it is at their height, and their mums and dads like it as they do not have to lift them up. Very tall people don't seem so keen, but they can bend down for a couple of minutes, or find a chair and sit in front. I am behind it all day. Selfish, maybe.

 

Sorry I forgot to include it is a suitable height for wheelchair users.

 

I try to be interactive with those in front. My operating system has a controlled randomness, the start of each move a playing card is turned over and that dictates the next move. I get the kids or their parents to pick the next card. I then get them to suggest how I will get loco A to position B. My layout can be operated from either side so if the show is not too busy I will ask the kids or their parents to pull or push the rods that move the points.   I do not entertain anyone, I can't sing or do magic tricks but I do communicate with those viewing my modelling efforts.

[Guest JiLo]

1 hour ago, Julia said:

 

The number of people saying to disregard the experience of the paying public at exhibitions reminds me why it is that I don't go to many exhibitions any more. 

 

To everyone saying prioritise the height of the operator, I would like to suggest you borrow a wheel chair, and go to a model railway exhibition, and see how much you can actually see. How much you enjoy looking at layouts through a periscope. 

 

If you are taking your layout to an exhibition, the paying public come first, and not all of them are able bodied and/or tall. 

 

J

 

And the same goes that not every member of the paying public are in a wheelchair or short in stature.  Bending over continually can hurt, as much as can craning your neck up.

 

I was unfortunate to spend a few months in a wheelchair after a back injury and the exhibitions I attended in that period (only a couple) I found I was better treated by the exhibitors than the other members of public.  On the layouts where I struggled to see, one of the operators would show me photos on their phone or in a folder, and a couple pointed to their websites.  This is now what I do when I exhibit.  My layouts are home layouts first and foremost and are set at a height to 1) make it comfortable for me to operate (see my previous post where I said I find it easier to stand than sit) and 2) to sit above my workbench whilst its set up, which frees up space in the room it lives in.

 

17 minutes ago, Julia said:

 

You're basically saying that wheel chair bound people aren't welcome at railway exhibitions. 

 

Seriously, borrow a wheel chair, and see what it's like from this side.

 

J

Steve isn't saying wheel-chair bound people arent welcome, but merely pointing out that the operators have to be comfortable as they are at the layout 6 or 7 hours each day the layout is on show.

 

One thing this thread is going to make me do though, is to put the baseboard height on the exhibitor information sheet that I have

[Dungrange]

3 minutes ago, JiLo said:

One thing this thread is going to make me do though, is to put the baseboard height on the exhibitor information sheet that I have.

 

I think that is a good idea and perhaps information that should be provided for all layouts to all exhibition managers.

 

I agree with earlier points made that if it weren't for the general public paying admission to visit a model railway exhibition, then there would be no model railway exhibitions.  However, the converse of that is that there also wouldn't be any model railway exhibitions if it weren't for the many individuals who give up their free time to exhibit their or their club's layout, sometimes on several weekends each year.  Yes, exhibitors are usually paid expenses such as fuel costs and van hire to attend exhibitions, but they are not paid for their time.  Generally they give up their free time to exhibit their layout because they 'enjoy' exhibiting.  As such, I don't think it is realistic to expect someone who is six foot six tall, who prefers standing when operating because of back problems, to have to set their layout three foot from the floor just to ensure that all layouts can be viewed by small children, wheel chair users and those with dwarfism.

 

The paying customer clearly needs to be 'entertained' if they are to keep attending model railway exhibitions, but equally, if exhibitors are not 'comfortable' when operating their layout, then they are unlikely to be so willing to give up their free time to exhibit and if because of that there are insufficient layouts available to exhibition managers to make an exhibition viable, there won't be any model railway exhibitions for anyone.  That's primarily why operator comfort needs to be considered every bit as much as the needs of people in wheelchairs or tall people who have difficulty bending down.

[Penlan]

My layout's track level is 42", it was 39", but not easy on the back when exhibiting, that extra 3" made all the difference.  The layout was built (in 1989) for exhibiting,  it's now resides at home, operated regularly.
The lower the track level, better to display the tops of the rolling stock, and probably forget all that running gear detail below the solebars for those standing tall to view.
Fortunately the main line track of Penlan is on an embankment to the front of the layout, so those who have a lower eye level can see the stock running by anyway  

[Zomboid]

14 hours ago, Julia said:

 

You're basically saying that wheel chair bound people aren't welcome at railway exhibitions. 

 

Seriously, borrow a wheel chair, and see what it's like from this side.

 

J

Not at all. I'm saying that the operator interacts with the layout all day during a show, and if it's set at a height which makes that uncomfortable then it's not likely to be taken to many shows.

 

Pleasing everyone is impossible, so you have to please the people who interact with it the most. For some that will mean it's mounted low, for others it'll be at a higher level.

[Phil Parker]

There isn't a "correct" answer to this. When I'm exhibiting, I like to talk to people, and since they are standing up, I want to be standing up so we are on an equal level. When I demonstrate sitting down, I always put chairs out the front to encourage people to sit for the same reason.  You could put chairs out the front of every layout, but space required would reduce the number of layouts by 2/3rd and of course, block access to the less mobile. 

 

My layouts generally offer a slightly higher than eye-level view for those using a wheelchair - however it's important to realise that both chairs and their users come in many different shapes and sizes too so anyone suggesting a one-size-fits-all approach there is lying. OK, you can't have the helicopter view, but since adults tend to stoop for the same view, I reckon it's a reasonable compromise.

 

This seems to work for me at 6ft 3 and the visitors. Yes, there are children who still can't see but if the show has barriers (I refuse to go to shows without them unless I bring my own) they can sometimes be sat on there or even stand on the bottom rung of metal ones.

 

Buiding small layouts, I don't use the legs during construction. I have a worktop around 10cm higher than the 1m leg height. This makes it even more comfortable for me to work.

[Steven B]

As a modeller, I like layouts to be around 4-5' so I can look into them and don't get to see the whole layout in one go. As a parent I don't want to spend a couple of hours lifting 15kg of child so nothing higher than 3' please!

 

Cliff or mountain railways are clearly the way forward!

[Clive Mortimore]

There is away to compromise the viewing height for people of various heights, model Horns Bridge at Chesterfield.

[PatB]

51 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

There is away to compromise the viewing height for people of various heights, model Horns Bridge at Chesterfield.

That's an artist's impression of something from Plans for Larger Layouts isn't it? 

[t-b-g]

One of my exhibition layouts is now on its 3rd set of legs. When first built, it was quite low, probably around 2' 6" from the floor to track height. I could operate sitting down, parents with youngsters said it was lovely at that height, as did wheelchair users. Others complained that they had to look down or bend down. I was persuaded by a friend that it was too low and made new legs, so it was around 3' 10. Youngsters and those not able to stand were unhappy and taller folk preferred it.

 

After a long chat about it with various people, I cut the legs down so it is now 3' 3" off the deck. We have just come back from a show and had a lovely time. We could operate sitting down on a tall barstool, seeing over the backscene. Youngsters could just see, although one at around 2 years old had to stand on a box. Nobody complained about it being too low.

 

 So 3' 3" is the perfect height for a model railway at a show.

 

 Any future layouts will be that height.

 

To be more serious about it, there is no right answer. There are plenty of people who will have views based on their own needs or wants. Saying " I am tall and I want to see layouts at eye level without having to bend down" just seems slightly more self centred than "I can't see a layout 5' off the ground because I am only 5 years old or in a wheelchair". So I would rather cater for the shorter end of the height spectrum. At least everybody can see something, even if taller people don't get a viewing angle they prefer.

[PatB]

I'm quite tall. Whilst I like layouts to be fairly high for viewing, it's a preference rather than a necessity. I can always bend, kneel or sit (although the passage of the years isn't making it any easier), as appropriate, but the short or wheelchair bound can't make themselves taller. A nice, hefty metal barrier to lean on makes things a bit easier.

 

As far as the operators are concerned, yes, they should be comfortable. I've exhibited (long ago), and recognise what hard work it can be. Suitable seating is, I think, a must, for any layout/operator combination where the boards are much lower than the bottom of the operator's sternum, especially if the operators are required to deal with things like eg scale couplings. I would hope that most operating teams are on sufficiently good terms that they'd be able to sort out between them who provides it and what's provided.

[Neil]

On 10/08/2019 at 22:31, Julia said:

 

The number of people saying to disregard the experience of the paying public at exhibitions reminds me why it is that I don't go to many exhibitions any more. 

 

To everyone saying prioritise the height of the operator, I would like to suggest you borrow a wheel chair, and go to a model railway exhibition, and see how much you can actually see. How much you enjoy looking at layouts through a periscope. 

 

If you are taking your layout to an exhibition, the paying public come first, and not all of them are able bodied and/or tall. 

 

J

 

Whilst I have some sympathy for this point of view I fear that a blanket 'public come first' policy isn't sensible or fair. I'm a fair way over six feet tall, and like many tall people, have a back which responds painfully to prolonged poor posture. If I'm to be stood at a three link, shunting plank layout, even for an hour then it has to be at a height that won't cause me pain. Not causing pain or damage trumps accessibility. Conversely some layouts are feasibly operated from a stool and for these height becomes less critical for the operator so why wouldn't you try to pick a sensible compromise that suits as many as possible.

[Julia]

3 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Whilst I have some sympathy for this point of view I fear that a blanket 'public come first' policy isn't sensible or fair. I'm a fair way over six feet tall, and like many tall people, have a back which responds painfully to prolonged poor posture. If I'm to be stood at a three link, shunting plank layout, even for an hour then it has to be at a height that won't cause me pain. Not causing pain or damage trumps accessibility. Conversely some layouts are feasibly operated from a stool and for these height becomes less critical for the operator so why wouldn't you try to pick a sensible compromise that suits as many as possible.

 

Why stand?

 

J

[PMP]

Because if you’re using three link couplings unless every uncoupling/coupling move is within arms reach of the seat, standing is more practical. My layouts are all designed to be viewed and operated from the front at a height of around 56 inches for practicality, and to make the viewing lines and blocks work.

 

Like other exhibitors here I have sympathy for the few whom can’t see the layouts at a show, and offer to take pictures for them and advise them of the website. My layouts are home layouts that occasionally get invites out, which makes a difference. A club or personal layout designed to go to shows as a major part of its raison d’etre could perhaps factor ‘public’ viewing height more prominently in its design spec.