Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[craigwelsh]

But by then its too late.

 

It would be better if Heljan listened to the comments made on their CAD drawings and actually modified them instead of carrying on with something thats not right.

 

I for one would like a pair of 76s but I will not spend money on something that isn't right especially as I would only have them on display on a shelf as I model in 2mm not 4mm.

 

I do agree though that the product can't be critised until there is actually something to look at in the form of a CAD drawing.

 

Cheers

Paul

Yup totally agree, get a minority class wrong once and sadly no one will be rushing to do another one soon too:(.

 

I'd love Heljan to listen to feedback on their mistakes introduced at the CAD stage but the Western and 86 have proved otherwise; neither were fixed before metal cutting .

[griffgriff]

Hi

 

But by then its too late.

 

It would be better if Heljan listened to the comments made on their CAD drawings and actually modified them instead of carrying on with something thats not right.

 

I for one would like a pair of 76s but I will not spend money on something that isn't right especially as I would only have them on display on a shelf as I model in 2mm not 4mm.

 

I do agree though that the product can't be critised until there is actually something to look at in the form of a CAD drawing.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Fair enough... but then wouldn't it be better to offer any advice directly to Heljan rather than titta-tatta on here?

[Pixie]

I know of at least 4 people (who's opinions I'd value on such subjects) who emailed Heljan when the CAD drawings for the 86 were released with what they felt was wrong at that stage so they were certainly told about the issues with it.

 

Heljan can make a brilliant model. The Hymek is a proving point - it's the right shape, right price, good build quality, decent livery application*, runs like a dream and hauls a prototypical load. For a long time it was my personal benchmark, until the Murphies 141 and Bachmann Prototype Deltic came along which have just about trumped it. I'd love to think that Heljan could produce a Blue Pullman (and a 76) to this standard, even if it meant showing the world the CAD drawings to be (construcively) torn apart, I'm certainly that any financial losses in having to redraw bits would be counterbalanced several times over by more sales.

 

*Well, the first batch were. The second run of green ones gained a god-awful logo.

 

Pix

 

 

[Pennine MC]

Fair enough... but then wouldn't it be better to offer any advice directly to Heljan rather than titta-tatta on here?

 

Normally I'd fully support that suggestion and I'm not a habitual knocker of manufacturers, but historically, there is a fair bit of apocryphal evidence that test shots of previous HJ models have been adversely commented on and nothing done about it. It's a paradox, to be sure.

[Downendian]

Modellers in 1960 would be puzzled by todays preoccupation with the somewhat obscure and at that time unexciting Blue Pullman (quote)

 

I guess it depends on the modeller! I can remember, as a 14 year old trainspotter the first time I saw the Blue Pullman at Iver. I had no idea what it was or that such a train even existed, and I was utterly blown away. It was WAY the most exciting thing around - until a certain sandy coloured diesel-hydraulic showed up, anyway! I was so keen to have a model that I began the abandonment of my Hornby-Dublo three-rail system, in favour of two-rail because the Kitmaster motor bogie was only available in two-rail.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

 

I agree with Chris- I remember the BP (or South Wales Pullman) from the early 1970s, and there was nothing else in service quite like it, even at that late stage of its career. Indeed the prototype HST livery looked exactly like the last liveries of the South Wales Pullmans, which was not accidental. Clearly the PR and corporate strategy of "luxury" transport at the time had some effect, and BR tried to recreate it with 252 001, and initially when put in service on the WR, was first class only. I think that the Pullmans had a direct influence on the HST development programme (indeed one French railway magazine referred to them as "Precursors du HST") The Pullmans were unique throughout their BR careers, and I for one would like a early 1970s blue-grey version based on my personal memories of these iconic machines.

 

Oh and that sandy coloured WR anomaly - just look at Youtube and the sights of the recent exploits of D1015 (aka D1009/1012) on tour to see what was an everyday sight in the 1960s/1970s.

[Downendian]

 

 

*Well, the first batch were. The second run of green ones gained a god-awful logo.

 

Pix

 

 

 

 

Although off topic, actually I think the new D7100 logo is more accurate - both in size and position, Pix. The first HJ green Hymeks have an undersize logo which was placed too high on the bodyside based on many photos I have. Maybe there was variation in them, but from memory of the green ones I saw the logo always seemed much bigger than those on brush 4s.

 

I'm sure that HJ will be aware of the QC issues of recent releases (I too remember the test moulds of the Western and the constructive feedback they were given on them), and we will get another model of the quality of their Hymek, BRCW type 2, Kestrel or 15s from them.

 

 

[griffgriff]

Normally I'd fully support that suggestion and I'm not a habitual knocker of manufacturers, but historically, there is a fair bit of apocryphal evidence that test shots of previous HJ models have been adversely commented on and nothing done about it. It's a paradox, to be sure.

 

 

... and I completely understand... but I still think that opinions should be shared directly face to face rather than behind their back...

 

 

...and if we buy them they will make them, as a business they look at product sold and apart from the spectrum of 47 liveries that you see most Heljan products seem to fly out of merchandisers doors without too much trouble don't they???

 

Of course I stand to be corrected but that's my opinion - feel free to disagree but please not in the forum because that was my point in the first place.

[Downendian]

I think Ian and Pix make valid points.

Although we have to be responsible with our critical comments on a public forum, we still represent a huge customer base for Heljan and other manufacturers, and I'm sure they take any constructive criticism voiced here on board, and make a decision based on economics whether to ignore it or not. Several recent models have evolved as a result of this process (e.g. Bachmann 37).

 

We just want the mistakes made in the past to be avoided with these new models, and for us to help Heljan in the R&D and tooling phase of these exciting projects. Heljan after all have plenty of "consultants" at their beck and call who will offer their advice for free, and I'm somewhat surprised that this advice was not heeded with the 86 and Western.

[griffgriff]

I couldn't agree more... I certainly wouldn't want an inaccurate model of anything - what would be the point of that - but if Heljan think it's good enough to sell (and be recent evidence it will) it will be put out to the market.

 

other than that I'm not sure where this will lead... so I think I shall leave it there.

[Pandora]

Hi

 

But by then its too late.

 

It would be better if Heljan listened to the comments made on their CAD drawings and actually modified them instead of carrying on with something thats not right.

 

I for one would like a pair of 76s but I will not spend money on something that isn't right especially as I would only have them on display on a shelf as I model in 2mm not 4mm.

 

I do agree though that the product can't be critised until there is actually something to look at in the form of a CAD drawing.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

There was an Article in the Newspaper not too long ago which highlighted the problems of dealing with the Chinese factories.

 

A Customer had commissioned some Vehicle Transmissions, the prototype sent to him was fine, the production run was wrong and had to have all the bearings replaced in the UK at some considerable expense.

 

The Chinese Factory had made substitutions of the good with inferior parts, they did not appreciate they were in the wrong, their Ethic is just not quite the same as ours, they believed they could beg for forgiveness afterwards.

 

The above is not intended as a derogatory comment on the Chinese nation, it seems we do not share the same way of thinking.

 

Another example may be found in the Autobiography of the Jet Engineer Stanley ######," Not Much of an Engineer", the Chinese were desperate to have a License to manufacture Rolls Royce Jet Engines, ostensibly for their Commercial Jets, but really for their Military purposes, instead of courting ###### for his help, their method of negotiation was to Insult and Humiliate.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

I have just opened my copy of BRM and found an advert at the back from Olivias Trains saying they have commissioned the Class 76 from Heljan and also the Blue Pullman!

 

There is no more details and it asks people not to call but instead to visit http://www.oliviastrains.com/

 

I have visited their site but there are no details on here at all, other than a link to a Class 76 Project page which when you click on it takes you to a blank page.

 

Let the froth begin?

 

Have Olivia's been watching this website's wishlists? Great news though, means one you don't have to build yourself. Lets see how it turns out though.

[Fenman]

Autobiography of the Jet Engineer Stanley ######," Not Much of an Engineer", ... instead of courting ###### for his help

 

Just to save anyone time who's as curious as me about what automatic nanny-bots regard as obscene, his surname is H-O-O-K-E-R.

 

Paul

[Supaned]

Regarding accuracy issues , at least there is E26020 in York NRM for Heljan to measure (or better still laser scan) , a pity there isn't a BP set for them to do likewise.

[rob D2]

Has olivia's got any track record producing ltd editions ?

 

Am I the only one sceptical about whether we will see either of these models appear.Surely if the big two thought they could make any money on them they would have produced them by now ?

['CHARD]

Has olivia's got any track record producing ltd editions ?

 

Am I the only one sceptical about whether we will see either of these models appear.Surely if the big two thought they could make any money on them they would have produced them by now ?

 

I think the whole point of this exercise - and other similar threads before it - is this: Olivia's may or may not have direct experience of this type of initiative, what it does however have, is a market position with the goodwill that goes with it. Other retailers have proved that there is a workable business model that will bring lesser prototypes to market, based on certain parameters, including market profile. A good parallel is the Kernow Thumper.

 

We can take it on trust that Olivia's is in business to make a profit, and has based its twin announcements upon such a business model. Let's not be in any doubt, that the strength that such ventures bring is that of risk-sharing, taking some of the exposure off "the big two." It is this aspect that pushes down the threshold of viability, and brings these prototypes into the can do bracket. Witness Rails and Bachmann just today with the LMS 'twins' announcement.

[craigwelsh]

I think the whole point of this exercise - and other similar threads before it - is this: Olivia's may or may not have direct experience of this type of initiative, what it does however have, is a market position with the goodwill that goes with it. Other retailers have proved that there is a workable business model that will bring lesser prototypes to market, based on certain parameters, including market profile. A good parallel is the Kernow Thumper.

 

We can take it on trust that Olivia's is in business to make a profit, and has based its twin announcements upon such a business model. Let's not be in any doubt, that the strength that such ventures bring is that of risk-sharing, taking some of the exposure off "the big two." It is this aspect that pushes down the threshold of viability, and brings these prototypes into the can do bracket. Witness Rails and Bachmann just today with the LMS 'twins' announcement.

Not so sure that people will have the goodwill to send a £50 deposit with no more details as the original 76 webpage stated before it was taken down..

 

Its interesting that Rails have now gone with Bachmann for the Twins and I can't wait to see how those turn out.

['CHARD]

I know what you're saying, but I meant 'goodwill' in the economic sense obviously, i.e standing and respect in the sector; they're not some Johnny-come-lately outfit. People already have, and will place, some trust in them to have the expertise to get the job done.

[cromptonnut]

The problem is (although it clearly isn't an issue for the manufacturers), is the average "modeller" in 2010 doesn't want to build locomotive kits. Maybe this is because they are fearful that as soon as the loco they have spent months slaving over takes it's first run around their layout, a manufacturer will announce a RTR model. Or maybe it's because they haven't the skill to complete a kit to the average RTE standard.

 

I tend to be ok building the kit but it's the painting that does me. I have an airbrush but haven't yet mastered anything more complicated than a general overall crud spraying - or more than one colour overall.

 

I'm reluctant to get, say, a DC Kits kit that costs over £100 including the power bogie, when I know there's a reasonable chance I'm going to screw it up somewhere, especially when I struggle with doing the same with a £10 wagon kit.

 

A kitmade equivalent - made well - will always be more detailed than the r-t-r equivalent, but for me it's just as much the difference of handbuilding super finescale trackwork and pointwork, then running unadulterated 1970's Lima models (especially the N gauge ones that were different scales in length, height and width!) on them - it just doesn't "match".

[Horsetan]

There was an Article in the Newspaper not too long ago which highlighted the problems of dealing with the Chinese factories.

 

A Customer had commissioned some Vehicle Transmissions, the prototype sent to him was fine, the production run was wrong and had to have all the bearings replaced in the UK at some considerable expense.

 

The Chinese Factory had made substitutions of the good with inferior parts, they did not appreciate they were in the wrong, their Ethic is just not quite the same as ours, they believed they could beg for forgiveness afterwards.

 

The above is not intended as a derogatory comment on the Chinese nation, it seems we do not share the same way of thinking.

......

 

>> Please read this book

[Oldddudders]

Modellers in 1960 would be puzzled by todays preoccupation with the somewhat obscure and at that time unexciting Blue Pullman (quote)

 

I guess it depends on the modeller! I can remember, as a 14 year old trainspotter the first time I saw the Blue Pullman at Iver. I had no idea what it was or that such a train even existed, and I was utterly blown away. It was WAY the most exciting thing around - until a certain sandy coloured diesel-hydraulic showed up, anyway! I was so keen to have a model that I began the abandonment of my Hornby-Dublo three-rail system, in favour of two-rail because the Kitmaster motor bogie was only available in two-rail.

CHRIS LEIGH

In Ian Allan's 1962 Locospotters' Annual, there is a 10-page article on the Midland Pullman, with a great deal of detail, as you might expect. Indeed, this was the lead article in the book, ahead of items on Adams 4-4-2 tanks, Gresley Pacifics on the GC, Warships, Raven Pacifics etc. The article is partly written as a travelogue, with descriptions of the meal service and menus etc. While these were troubled trains, taking ages to come good, their impact spread far beyond the relatively few who could afford to use them, and they were the image of the age before WCML electrification reached London a few years later. However impractical/irrelevant a train they may be for most layouts, they had charisma, and it is pleasing to note that continues to this day. Anyone who hasn't seen the BTF film about them has really missed something too, IMHO.

['CHARD]

The BP is something of a Birmingham icon, really, given its birthplace, and as it had diagrammed work to Wolverhampton LL, it will surely spark renewed interest in the Western-flavoured slice of the West Midlands, plus the legion of 'what-ifs' that this will stimulate.

 

EDIT: OD's point about the BTF footage is very apt too. This train and its on board presentation has the air of a cruise liner about it to me. The 2001 (?) book on the BP's history is thoroughly recommended reading; tested over the Sutton Park line, I mean it doesn't get much more outrageous than that

 

EDIT2: I just wanted to give extra exposure to Ian's use of the definitive word on this topic 'CHARISMATIC' which appears two posts down

[BernardTPM]

Modellers in 1960 would be puzzled by todays preoccupation with the somewhat obscure and at that time unexciting Blue Pullman.

 

I think a lot of them must have been waiting with baited breath for the Kitmaster or Tri-ang models; they certainly featured a lot in the magazines of the time. Mind you, this was also the era of the Tri-ang Dean Single and clerestory coaches and Stephenson's Rocket so there was a bit of variety to keep everyone amused at the time.

[Oldddudders]

I think a lot of them must have been waiting with baited breath for the Kitmaster or Tri-ang models; they certainly featured a lot in the magazines of the time. Mind you, this was also the era of the Tri-ang Dean Single and clerestory coaches and Stephenson's Rocket so there was a bit of variety to keep everyone amused at the time.

Exactly. Charismatic models always develop sales and may get people into modelling, to the benefit of all. I wonder what Tornado and COT sales are doing to the general modelling market at present - not much harm, I bet!

[Trainshed Terry]

Hmm.!!!!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Blue Pullman for the Western Region Please. ;) ;)

 

Terry.

[298]

 

Modellers in 1960 would be puzzled by todays preoccupation with the somewhat obscure and at that time unexciting Blue Pullman.

 

 

I think a lot of them must have been waiting with baited breath for the Kitmaster or Tri-ang models; they certainly featured a lot in the magazines of the time. Mind you, this was also the era of the Tri-ang Dean Single and clerestory coaches and Stephenson's Rocket so there was a bit of variety to keep everyone amused at the time.

 

 

Exactly how highly regarded were the Blue Pullman trains at the time, either the prototypes or the model...? Was it seen as a rich man's folly (like the Brabazon and Concorde), or was it the must have item on your trainset, like the APT was in the early 80's...?