Okehampton Railway re-opening

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, Kris said:

If a 2 platform option is too expensive as has been suggested, then why not look at at platform arrangement as found at Penryn. If the loop went round the Gunnislake part of the platform then it could work.

 

 

 

The Penryn solution won't work at Bere Alston (as an 'out of the box solution) because the Gunnislake branch joins the main line from the west on the opposite side of the railway from the station building / access point (which is on the east side of the site). So either the branch tracks  to cross the 'St Beaudux - Tavistoick line on the flat to reach a platform (which is going to need proper signalling equipment because you cannot do this with a simple train staff system) or people need to be able to do the reverse and cross the Tavistock line somehow to access the second platform.

 

Now if the station entrance at Bere Alston could be 'flipped' so access is gained from the west side then a bay and Penryn loop style setup could be built without any need for passengers to cross the tracks

 

The only flaw is the inhabitants of Ezenridge Farm might not like people walking past their house to get to the station and the narrowness of station road under bridges 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by phil-b259

[Siberian Snooper]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

How do people joining the Gunnislake train at Bere Alston (NOT changing train), access the platform without crossing the track?  It might be a very small number, but you still have to provide a safe means of crossing the track.

 There's no crossing the track, the existing track is pushed over to the island platform face and the existing platform is extended to meet the realigned track, thus making a platform face on both sides of the train, as per Horsted Keynes on the Bluebell Railway, exit on one side,  you're on the station side platform, exit the other side and you're on the island platform. You pass through the train. When I have travelled the route, I have not seen anyone alight or join to travel between Bere Alston and the Gunni line stations or vice versa.

 

 

[phil-b259]

36 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 There's no crossing the track, the existing track is pushed over to the island platform face and the existing platform is extended to meet the realigned track, thus making a platform face on both sides of the train, as per Horsted Keynes on the Bluebell Railway, exit on one side,  you're on the station side platform, exit the other side and you're on the island platform. You pass through the train. When I have travelled the route, I have not seen anyone alight or join to travel between Bere Alston and the Gunni line stations or vice versa.

 

 

 

Ahh I see.

 

Although sounding superficially neat and tidy I'm not sure the various authorities would tolerate having a platform to which there was NO public access other than when a train happened to be in the platform to create a bridge - what happens if the train from Plymouth suffered a technical failure and was unable to be at Bere Alston to act as a bridge to let passengers from the Ginnislake train to vacate their train and seek Taxis for onwards movement for example? You also need to consider 'Persons with reduced mobility' - if a train is beoing used as a bridge then thats two sets of ramps which need to be deployed thus extending dwell times (and given the limited extra infrastructure which will be provided its important to keep dwell times down.

 

Yes you could put in place a foot crossing'for emergency use only'as a backup, but at an unstaffed station that would have to be kept unlocked so it could be used at any time - and if thats the case you can bet it wouldn't only be used for 'emergencies'

 

No the  more I look at it either derogation from the standard to allow a foot crossing to reach the ex island platform or a wholesale move of the station entrance over to the west of the line (thus eliminating the need to cross anty railway tracks at all are the two most sensible ones.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Ahh I see.

 

Although sounding superficially neat and tidy I'm not sure the various authorities would tolerate having a platform to which there was NO public access other than when a train happened to be in the platform to create a bridge - what happens if the train from Plymouth suffered a technical failure and was unable to be at Bere Alston to act as a bridge to let passengers from the Ginnislake train to vacate their train and seek Taxis for onwards movement for example? You also need to consider 'Persons with reduced mobility' - if a train is beoing used as a bridge then thats two sets of ramps which need to be deployed thus extending dwell times (and given the limited extra infrastructure which will be provided its important to keep dwell times down.

 

Yes you could put in place a foot crossing'for emergency use only'as a backup, but at an unstaffed station that would have to be kept unlocked so it could be used at any time - and if thats the case you can bet it wouldn't only be used for 'emergencies'

 

No the  more I look at it either derogation from the standard to allow a foot crossing to reach the ex island platform or a wholesale move of the station entrance over to the west of the line (thus eliminating the need to cross anty railway tracks at all are the two most sensible ones.

Also, at other locations with a platform on both sides of the same track the doors are often only opened on one side. Finsbury Park is an example of this - are the trains actually able to have both sides opened simultaneously?

 

Agree about the evacuation situation though - it’s not exactly a confined location but especially something like a fire (which could be a fairly minor one started in a bin by a discarded cigarette or whatever, but it would still cause people to panic) would cause problems and people might decide they were safer jumping down onto the track than staying on the platform with the hazard.

 

Anyway, leaving the safety issues aside, wouldn’t we effectively be saying that passengers on one of the trains (if it’s delayed or not scheduled to be there at the same time as the other one) would have to wait for the connecting train, even if they don’t actually want to go anywhere on it and just want to exit the station? I can’t see that being especially convenient or popular.

 

Although, now that I think about this, there have been examples of junction stations with no public access at all (other than by train, obviously), but that’s perhaps slightly different depending on the station layout, and they probably have some form of emergency exit (I think Smallbrook Junction does).

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Also, at other locations with a platform on both sides of the same track the doors are often only opened on one side. Finsbury Park is an example of this - are the trains actually able to have both sides opened simultaneously?

Norwood junction is the same.

ive never seen anything use both platforms of the track, ever, its just one side.

Edited September 29, 2023 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Norwood junction is the same.

ive never seen anything use both platforms of the track, ever, its just one side.

Uncontrollable in the slam-door era. 

[Fishoutofwater]

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

some form of emergency exit (I think Smallbrook Junction does).

Nope.

 

[corneliuslundie]

I used to think that Dovey Junction had to passenger exit, but it appears that there is now a footpath to the road via a foot crossing of the Aberystwyth line on the level a little way west of the station.

So not even supervised by the train crew.

Mind you there are foot crossings over the line near Machynlleth, one of which we used and simply has gates to open/close with no notices about contacting anyone, as far as I can remember.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/09/2023 at 23:54, adb968008 said:

Norwood junction is the same.

ive never seen anything use both platforms of the track, ever, its just one side.

It's done like that to simplify the task of checking that doors are properly closed before a train departs.

[The Stationmaster]

On 30/09/2023 at 09:20, corneliuslundie said:

I used to think that Dovey Junction had to passenger exit, but it appears that there is now a footpath to the road via a foot crossing of the Aberystwyth line on the level a little way west of the station.

So not even supervised by the train crew.

Mind you there are foot crossings over the line near Machynlleth, one of which we used and simply has gates to open/close with no notices about contacting anyone, as far as I can remember.

Jonathan

Bala Junction held that particular prize.  

 

There was no local public access to it at all and the only way a member of the public could get to it or from it was by train.  Neither the GWR nor the WR listed it as a station but simply mentioned it as the place to change trains to get to/from Bala and the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There are a handful of London Underground stations where doors are opened on both sides. The westbound Central Line at Stratford is perhaps the best known.

 

I know Dovey Junction has had foot access for a long time, but did it have foot access before Glandyfi station closed, I wonder.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[johnofwessex]

I have seen a sign for a footpath to Dovey Junction

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There are a handful of London Underground stations where doors are opened on both sides. The westbound Central Line at Stratford is perhaps the best known.

They sometimes are on the Piccadilly line as well - although often on terminating trains (e.g. at Arnos Grove), so perhaps the issues with checking doors are less relevant.

 

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Bala Junction held that particular prize.  

 

There was no local public access to it at all and the only way a member of the public could get to it or from it was by train.  Neither the GWR nor the WR listed it as a station but simply mentioned it as the place to change trains to get to/from Bala and the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch.

There is a station like this in Ireland, Manulla Junction, but I was reading about this the other day and, slightly bizarrely, it appears that it wasn’t always like this, closing to joining and leaving passengers in 1963, staying open as an interchange only but with a public road going right past the station on a bridge over the railway. I’m not sure I understand the logic of this.

 

Edit: actually on the subject of Smallbrook, obviously this is only served by electric Island Line trains when the steam railway is running, but is it also only served by certain services on those days? I imagine there would be some times when the Island Line service is more frequent than the IoWSR  one, so presumably only the electric trains that actually have a steam train to connect with would need to stop.

Edited October 1, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Foulounoux]

On 30/09/2023 at 07:38, Oldddudders said:

Uncontrollable in the slam-door era. 

And was  useful at FP if you had come up the wrong set of stairs.... wait for a semi fast through the compartment and onto the right platform:-)

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Bala Junction held that particular prize.  

 

There was no local public access to it at all and the only way a member of the public could get to it or from it was by train.  Neither the GWR nor the WR listed it as a station but simply mentioned it as the place to change trains to get to/from Bala and the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch.

I wonder if people ever got out there, watched their train depart and only then discovered the connection was cancelled?

[corneliuslundie]

They probably just walked along the line to Bala - half a mile.

Jonathan

[Andy Kirkham]

On 30/09/2023 at 09:20, corneliuslundie said:

I used to think that Dovey Junction had to passenger exit, but it appears that there is now a footpath to the road via a foot crossing of the Aberystwyth line on the level a little way west of the station.

So not even supervised by the train crew.

Mind you there are foot crossings over the line near Machynlleth, one of which we used and simply has gates to open/close with no notices about contacting anyone, as far as I can remember.

Jonathan

 

The only way between the platforms at Dent is by a foot crossing (at least it was 20 years ago) and I found it really quite scary because the station is on a curve and a non-stopping train could suddenly appear wih no warning.

[Mike_Walker]

There are probably others on the network like that.  Kings Sutton, south of Banbury, was like that with only a foot crossing for access to the Down platform on a 90mph line with a curve but now has a non-accessible footbridge.  Such places continue to exist under "grandfather rights" but such arrangements would almost certainly not be tolerated for new works which is how Bere Alston would be considered.

[Ben B]

On 28/09/2023 at 13:23, adb968008 said:

There is precedent just around the corner, theres a tiny lane completely concealed visibility on one side of the line, crossing the line just after Calstock.

 

The train has an actual hard stop, at a stop board, sounds horn then crosses at 5mph, not that the train travels much faster going to Gunnislake anyway.

visible here from Eric road

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4991215,-4.1964441,3a,65.968155y,0.089202h,90.085854t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9VI5tIDsFVKv8tXLUDUntw!2e0?lucs=,47071704&g_ep=CAISBjYuNDkuNBgBIIGBASoJLDQ3MDcxNzA0QgJHQg%3D%3D&g_st=ic&g_st=ic

 

 

Looks like it could do with a pass by the weedkiller train!  On a serious note, I don't like scenes like that, as I think that for people who don't understand railways, it can encourage missuse when it looks neglected.

When I was in Wales a few years back, I got into a row with a couple of fishermen who were walking along the Cambrian Coast line as a shortcut; they were tourists, and their 'justification' was they thought it was a closed railway because the tracks were rusty and it was very overgrown. Admittedly it was a Sunday, so hardly any traffic, but I pointed out that it was technically an open railway, appearances to the contrary...

[009 micro modeller]

35 minutes ago, Ben B said:

Looks like it could do with a pass by the weedkiller train!  On a serious note, I don't like scenes like that, as I think that for people who don't understand railways, it can encourage missuse when it looks neglected.

In the case of Calstock it seems a very awkward layout anyway (which probably wouldn’t be allowed on a faster line). Railway and road on one side both approaching on a curve, and then the road parallel to the railway has a turn off directly over the level crossing.

[Mike_Walker]

57 minutes ago, Ben B said:

 

Looks like it could do with a pass by the weedkiller train!  On a serious note, I don't like scenes like that, as I think that for people who don't understand railways, it can encourage missuse when it looks neglected.

When I was in Wales a few years back, I got into a row with a couple of fishermen who were walking along the Cambrian Coast line as a shortcut; they were tourists, and their 'justification' was they thought it was a closed railway because the tracks were rusty and it was very overgrown. Admittedly it was a Sunday, so hardly any traffic, but I pointed out that it was technically an open railway, appearances to the contrary...

Actually not too bad compared to some parts of the network these days!  I note the image is dated June 2023 so perhaps the temporary railings are a first sign of the proposed upgrade.

 

From here the line makes almost a 90 degree turn which is why there's the 10 mph limit.  Once clear of that, it's a blistering 20 all the way to Gunnislake apart from Stop and proceed at another open crossing, Sandways.  It's 15 from here back to Calstock station where there's a foot crossing between the platform end and the viaduct.

 

An interesting detail:  if you follow Streetview up the crossing you will see a narrow upright box between the railway and road on the Gunnislake side.  This contains emergency "sand sticks" used if the train has adhesion problems.  There is another 3/4 mile further on.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There are a handful of London Underground stations where doors are opened on both sides. The westbound Central Line at Stratford is perhaps the best known.

 

I know Dovey Junction has had foot access for a long time, but did it have foot access before Glandyfi station closed, I wonder.

 

According to early OS maps and railway timetables it did.

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

There are probably others on the network like that.  Kings Sutton, south of Banbury, was like that with only a foot crossing for access to the Down platform on a 90mph line with a curve but now has a non-accessible footbridge.  Such places continue to exist under "grandfather rights" but such arrangements would almost certainly not be tolerated for new works which is how Bere Alston would be considered.

 

Except a brand new foot crossing WAS created (on a 3rd rail electrified railway no less) literally a couple of years ago thus proving that foot crossings CAN be tolerated in the right circumstances!

 

In the case of Dent or Kings Sutton we are talking about a 90mph double track railway with lots of non-stop trains - very different from what would need to be created at Bere Alston which would be on a single track line at a station every train stops!

 

So I repeat if a foot crossing (with miniature warning lights and low permanent speed restriction) is considered acceptable for Braiding (Isle of Wight) then it can be considered acceptable at Bere Alston

Edited October 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[Not Jeremy]

Interesting points all, I have enjoyed reading so much informed comment. What I still like about the discussion/subject is that despite all the quite legitimate and logical points made "against" (I'm categorising very bluntly here, I appreciate there are all sorts of nuanced shades of thought raised here) it still  has the whiff of possibility hanging over it.

 

That said, given that the latest "move" is with the Government (I use the term loosely), I wonder just what (if any) effect the current, ahem, situation regarding HS2 might have on its prospects?

 

Like others, I find pretty much all of the current HS2 "news" profoundly depressing, is it too much to hope that something positive may yet emerge from the current debacle, as regards both this and possibly other projects?

 

I live in hope, foolish as that may be it's generally a better feeling than despair.....

 

Simon

[Mike_Walker]

Without wanting to be political, we can only hope that if there is a change of government then HS2 to Manchester will be restored.  

Not holding out any hope for Tavistock benefiting from HS2 as it seems the money is to be used for other schemes in the north and Wales.