RevolutioN Trains announce "Caroline" Inspection Car in OO gauge and EOI for one in N gauge

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

4 hours ago, Geep7 said:

there are much more important things to loose sleep over

Since im up and cannot sleep it must be the height of my caroline.......not, this kind of thing on threads is becoming more and more as the models have gone from something roughly like to a shrunk real thing.

A bit common sence has to surly come into play here, i doubt the layout that you run the model on is mm perfect in every detail so cut some slack to Ben and the team here,its a stunning model and deserves praise unless you can do better for the price and scratch build,its a big boys toy remember.

[rorz101uk]

5 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi John,

 

There's nothing wrong with your calculations, but when 975025 was converted from a Hastings Buffet trailer to Caroline the bogies were changed to B4 types. I wonder if this accounts, at least in part, for the difference in height between our measurements from the prototype at Loram in Derby and the drawings you have.

 

In addition, as others have noted, a small amount of additional clearance had to be added to allow the model to cope with trainset curves.  If you have generous curves you can remove this if you wish; it comes down to the age old compromise between producing an accurate replica of a real vehicle and a model that will operate on the sort of curves and gradients modellers use.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

Hi Ben, 

 

I seem to remember the bogies are B5s ( the S meaning Southern I think there was a plate on the bogie. I’ve not worked there since 2018 so my memory is a bit vague.) not b4, they are a bit different with the brake cylinders on the bogies it self. There was another vehicle within the NR IM feet SGT 975081 I think that had the same bogies.

[griffgriff]

1 hour ago, rorz101uk said:

Hi Ben, 

 

I seem to remember the bogies are B5s ( the S meaning Southern I think there was a plate on the bogie. I’ve not worked there since 2018 so my memory is a bit vague.) not b4, they are a bit different with the brake cylinders on the bogies it self. There was another vehicle within the NR IM feet SGT 975081 I think that had the same bogies.

… and a B5s is very different to a B5 which is very, very different to a B4.

 

Griff

[Wolf27]

7 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi John,

 

There's nothing wrong with your calculations, but when 975025 was converted from a Hastings Buffet trailer to Caroline the bogies were changed to B4 types. I wonder if this accounts, at least in part, for the difference in height between our measurements from the prototype at Loram in Derby and the drawings you have.

 

In addition, as others have noted, a small amount of additional clearance had to be added to allow the model to cope with trainset curves.  If you have generous curves you can remove this if you wish; it comes down to the age old compromise between producing an accurate replica of a real vehicle and a model that will operate on the sort of curves and gradients modellers use.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

I’ll measure Hastings next time I’m at Shackerstone, that got different bogies again but just out of curiosity, I’ll see what height this comes out at. 

[Revolution Ben]

2 hours ago, rorz101uk said:

Hi Ben, 

 

I seem to remember the bogies are B5s ( the S meaning Southern I think there was a plate on the bogie. I’ve not worked there since 2018 so my memory is a bit vague.) not b4, they are a bit different with the brake cylinders on the bogies it self. There was another vehicle within the NR IM feet SGT 975081 I think that had the same bogies.

 

Hi all,

 

Yes, you're absolutely correct.  I will blame late night brain fog and having just returned from a (delayed so we could post models out last week) birthday trip away.  In any event, the bogies are different to those originally fitted to the Hastings cars.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[G-BOAF]

8 hours ago, JJC said:

OK, I've got the callipers out.

 

Looking at the official BR weight diagram (available freely via the Barrowmore MRG site) the overall rail to roof top measurement should be 3734mm and the rail to vent-top should be 3831mm.

This scaled by 1:76.2 should be 49.00mm rail to roof top and 50.28mm rail to vent-top.

 

see attached:

 

I've measured both with the shim and without the shim fitted again, as attached:

 

Rail to roof-top (with shim)

 

Rail to roof-top (without shim)

 

Rail to vent-top (with shim)

 

Rail to vent-top (without shim)

 

If my calculations/workings are correct, this gives a difference of:

 

Rail to roof: 1.95mm with shim / 1.60mm without shim

Multiplied by 76.2 gives a scale difference of 148.59mm with shim / 121.92 without shim or in imperial; 5.85" with shim and 4.8" with the shim removed.

 

Conclusion: The model is approximately 5 inches too tall overall by the official BR documentation, which confirms several of our suspicions of it looking taller than many other items of rolling stock. The next question is where? As stated previously this should/could be a lot easier to rectify if it's a bogie ride-height issue rather than a body issue.

 

Overall, I'm feeling more and more disappointed with what is firstly the most expensive non-powered piece of rolling stock I've ever bought, but moreover one that I've waited patiently for the last 3 years to receive. 

The NSE lettering is a small, yet very important mistake which shouldn't have been made on such a high quality model, the packaging/shipping issues are annoying, and it's easy to lay blame on the shipment company (trust me, I'm well aware trains get damaged in the post), however the horns seem to be put under particular strain as mine arrived with 3 of the 4 horns detached and all were bent. This is something which I remedied easily, but it does appear the packaging doesn't protect them satisfactorily .

As for the height issue, 1.6mm too tall doesn't sound much, but 5" in real life terms is really quite a lot taller than it should be.

 

Personally I'm in a quandary as to what to do. It doesn't look right, and I'm now debating whether I want to keep it or not.

 

John

A very well analysed post, which does put numbers/photos to previous 'suspicions' in terms of dimensions

I'm still awaiting mine but am also in a quandary over whether to cancel now, look in the flesh then keep/return (having been lurking on here for a while and finally taken a late plunge with an order). But the later option is not really fair on the retailer.

Its a real shame some of this wasn't spotted in earlier samples, but also a symptom of the pandemic that access to EPs and detailed inspection by fresh eyes might not have been possible.

The NSE logo issue appears to be a 'mistake'/nearest best font at the factory, which is just shortcutting on what should have been a tracing or image conversion job.

 

8 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi John,

 

There's nothing wrong with your calculations, but when 975025 was converted from a Hastings Buffet trailer to Caroline the bogies were changed to B4 types. I wonder if this accounts, at least in part, for the difference in height between our measurements from the prototype at Loram in Derby and the drawings you have.

 

In addition, as others have noted, a small amount of additional clearance had to be added to allow the model to cope with trainset curves.  If you have generous curves you can remove this if you wish; it comes down to the age old compromise between producing an accurate replica of a real vehicle and a model that will operate on the sort of curves and gradients modellers use.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

The height issue is more confusing - are there official drawings/data for Caroline (including its revised bogies).

Can Revolution share the basic dimensions/measurements they took of the vehicle?

Has the factory made a mistake in the processing/conversion of those measurements (in the same way the appear to have made a mistake on the NSE logo despite what was clearly provided to them). Its not beyond the realms of error that someone got confused between roof and vent height, and decided to draw the roof to the vent height and then add the vents to that (given that the vent tops are c.1.5mm above the roof). Clearly if there is a factory error then there needs to be factory rectification.

 

I appreciate that a change in bogie could result in a change in ride height, however given both the 'large' numerical discrepancy (5 inches seems a lot for a change in bogie) and the fact that things 'look' off when compared with other recent items of rolling stock (4TC which should be similar overall height, and both Bachmann and AS 37s which sit at a very similar overall height to each other), this still lends evidence to something not being quite right.

 

I remember the then Dapol rep on here producing a comparison between measurements and CAD cross section for the Western to demonstrate corrections made during development

[black and decker boy]

Oh dear, what a sad bunch we are becoming.

 

comparing a dimension sheet of a vehicle in a past life, preconversion, rather than actual dims taken of the current vehicle and then expecting absolute fidelity and accuracy to tenths of millimetres despite this being a working model not a static display example. To be sending models back seems totally OTT but no doubt other modellers will benefit from the surplus.
 

Ride heights in the real world vary based on newness / worn wheels, suspension systems (especially those with air secondary suspension)

 

this isn’t the Fell with completely fabricated details.

 

As an EM/P4 exhibition modeller, all I can say is I’m delighted and very satisfied with my Caroline as I’m sure 99% of others will be too.

 

the logo is a cock up but such things happen every day and whilst avoidable, doesn’t really change the model. If it hadn’t been pointed out, I’d have never spotted it.

Edited August 9, 2023 by black and decker boy

[St. Simon]

9 hours ago, Geep7 said:

The NSE logo error? may have been unavoidable if scaling down from a larger logo provided, or maybe it is the closest typeface that was available?

 

Hi,

 

I don't think it is simple as using the closest type face, I wouldn't be surprised if the graphics designers will just trace over the existing logo files to create what they need.

 

 

10 hours ago, JJC said:

It's NSE. The branding is well documented, extremely well-publicised and a very well known "brand".

The "t" is wrong and shouldn't be. Simple as that.

 

However, I don't consider it an issue that would cause me (or really anyone) not to buy the model, and if it did, we have to remember, this whole process is full of humans, and occasionally get stuff wrong, I think this is in the case of 'easily missed and not catastrophic if it is' sort of error. Okay it is on a comparatively expensive model, but these things could happen on the most expensive models in the world, it is just the way of things!

 

Cut Revolution some slack, it is a lovely model.

 

Simon

[jonnyuk]

there seems to be two camps here which is unfortunate but that' life on a forums i guess. I can see both sides here,

 

there are some issues with the product, QC, packaging (which is unacceptable in my opinion), scale accuracy, compromised lighting and livery faults on one model

 

on the flip, it's generally a stunning coach, great detail, lovely finish, just looks gorgeous

 

at the end of the day this is a coach, unpowered but commands loco prices (Dapol for example, not far off a AS 37), within this in mind i think some of the highlighted issues leaves allot to be desired and should not exist.

 

Would i send my product back because of them, not a chance, i can live with the issue of height and lighting, and now i've glued my detail parts back on QC and packaging are irrelevant.

customers have  right to air their opinions having spent allot of money on a coach, lets not bash them for that.

[NBL]

10 hours ago, JJC said:

OK, I've got the callipers out.

 

Looking at the official BR weight diagram (available freely via the Barrowmore MRG site) the overall rail to roof top measurement should be 3734mm and the rail to vent-top should be 3831mm.

This scaled by 1:76.2 should be 49.00mm rail to roof top and 50.28mm rail to vent-top.

 

see attached:

 

I've measured both with the shim and without the shim fitted again, as attached:

 

Rail to roof-top (with shim)

 

Rail to roof-top (without shim)

 

Rail to vent-top (with shim)

 

Rail to vent-top (without shim)

 

If my calculations/workings are correct, this gives a difference of:

 

Rail to roof: 1.95mm with shim / 1.60mm without shim

Multiplied by 76.2 gives a scale difference of 148.59mm with shim / 121.92 without shim or in imperial; 5.85" with shim and 4.8" with the shim removed.

 

Conclusion: The model is approximately 5 inches too tall overall by the official BR documentation, which confirms several of our suspicions of it looking taller than many other items of rolling stock. The next question is where? As stated previously this should/could be a lot easier to rectify if it's a bogie ride-height issue rather than a body issue.

 

Overall, I'm feeling more and more disappointed with what is firstly the most expensive non-powered piece of rolling stock I've ever bought, but moreover one that I've waited patiently for the last 3 years to receive. 

The NSE lettering is a small, yet very important mistake which shouldn't have been made on such a high quality model, the packaging/shipping issues are annoying, and it's easy to lay blame on the shipment company (trust me, I'm well aware trains get damaged in the post), however the horns seem to be put under particular strain as mine arrived with 3 of the 4 horns detached and all were bent. This is something which I remedied easily, but it does appear the packaging doesn't protect them satisfactorily .

As for the height issue, 1.6mm too tall doesn't sound much, but 5" in real life terms is really quite a lot taller than it should be.

 

Personally I'm in a quandary as to what to do. It doesn't look right, and I'm now debating whether I want to keep it or not.

 

John

Not one of our models are 100% accurate in height, length, width or decoration.

 

These are model trains, toys, at the end of the day.  Yes we all want them to be as accurate as possible, but achieving absolute accuracy is impossible.

 

If you aren't happy, return it to allow someone else to enjoy it for what is a splendid model, then build a kit to a better standard and show it off here.

 

 

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

As an EM/P4 exhibition modeller, all I can say is I’m delighted and very satisfied with my Caroline as I’m sure 99% of others will be too.

Would be interested to see how easy / difficult it is to convert it. I know i'm OO now, but you never know in the future......

[Revolution Mike]

I I converted a pre-production sample to EM (and will have a production one running on Oldshaw (which is EM) later this year). 
 

IIRC it was a bit of a tight fit but not too difficult. 

[Andy7]

My Caroline has arrived and very nice it is too.

Outer brown box was damaged but it somehow protected the Revolution packaging perfectly. One detail part loose, I expect this from every model I buy these days (not because I think they are poorly made but more I understand they have travelled thousands of miles and are high lot detailed, my missus would disagree but I’m a realist).

The height “issue” appears to me to be largely unfounded and if there is one then it’s tiny.

Positive's are it looks stunning, has all the detailing (out and in), comprehensive lighting, nice packaging and overall a great job.

Well done Revolution you have done a fab job on a unique coach that I am thrilled to have in my collection and wouldn’t have if you hadn’t of made it (too much work even for me).

[mevaman1]

My Caroline arrived a few days ago.  
 

I am really pleased with it.  A superb model.

 

I am aware of the gripes on here about ride height and the ‘t’s on the NSE version but believe that we are really fortunate that Revolution took the risk in making such an iconic piece of rolling stock.  I, for one, will be very happy to run it on our exhibition layouts without alteration.

 

Andrew

[Bucoops]

Just got despatch notification from Rails of Sheffield 🙂

 

They are still showing the blue-grey version as available to order but not the other two.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Bucoops

[Alan Oliver]

Hopefully will get a despatch email from them for my NSE version.

[NTrains]

It really is a stunning model. The detail is awesome.

[47007stratford]

order placed and paid for in full on 27/08/2020 still waiting for this one, still showing "Processing" 

[matchmaker]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

Just got despatch notification from Rails of Sheffield 🙂

 

They are still showing the blue-grey version as available to order but not the other two.

So did I. Network Rail version.

[rorz101uk]

I know this is a bit early but would there be another run? Ie would like it before it was refurbished and in BR green?

[ruggedpeak]

Mine has arrived but it is currently located in a different country to me 😭 looks excellent though 😁

[Wolf27]

3 hours ago, rorz101uk said:

I know this is a bit early but would there be another run? Ie would like it before it was refurbished and in BR green?

They have released a blue and grey version, that would be as converted, much the same as the NSE version is. 

[Revolution Ben]

3 hours ago, rorz101uk said:

I know this is a bit early but would there be another run? Ie would like it before it was refurbished and in BR green?

 

Hello Rory,

 

I think it was more rebuilt than refurbished.  The changes included removing the gangways, putting in windscreens at each end, fitting driver controls and appropriate electrical connectors and buses, significant modifications to the interior, and adding air brakes and different bogies. 

 

Before that it was 'just' the buffet car from a standard 6H set, and we have no plans to produce these.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[G-BOAF]

4 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hello Rory,

 

I think it was more rebuilt than refurbished.  The changes included removing the gangways, putting in windscreens at each end, fitting driver controls and appropriate electrical connectors and buses, significant modifications to the interior, and adding air brakes and different bogies. 

 

Before that it was 'just' the buffet car from a standard 6H set, and we have no plans to produce these.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

I think the OP means before it was refurbished into blue Star/WIPAC condition, so with SR jumpers and headcode box, but in Green.

As per here: https://www.departmentals.com/photo/975025c

[griffgriff]

16 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I think the OP means before it was refurbished into blue Star/WIPAC condition, so with SR jumpers and headcode box, but in Green.

As per here: https://www.departmentals.com/photo/975025c

Isn’t that the the Rainbow Railways limited edition?