Wearing face masks or coverings on public transport to be mandatory from June 15th

[pete_mcfarlane]

 

2 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Matt Hancock, April 24: "The evidence of the use of masks by the general public is extremely weak."

 

Grant Shapps, June 4: "With more people using transport the evidence suggests wearing face coverings offers some - albeit limited - protection against the spread of the virus."

 

They are making it up as they go along.

 

Andi

 

There's nothing contradictory in those statements, as it's perfectly possible for the evidence to have become more compelling over the 6 week period between them, and for the Government position to change to match. That's the nature of a situation like this. 

 

 

[maico]

11 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Can you provide a link to the evidence for this 'fact'?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2020/04/27/the-health-202-sunlight-does-kill-the-coronavirus-but-not-in-the-way-trump-suggested/5ea5993e88e0fa3dea9c2b24/

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Can you provide a link to the evidence for this 'fact'?

 

It'd be good to know, officially, what cleaning methods are best.

 

I've heard that face coverings should be washed at 60C before using them again, and we rely on hand sanitiser to do the same job on our hands, but "half-life" sounds like there's been a bit of confusion with radiation decay rates!

[maico]

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

It'd be good to know, officially, what cleaning methods are best.

 

I've heard that face coverings should be washed at 60C before using them again, and we rely on hand sanitiser to do the same job on our hands, but "half-life" sounds like there's been a bit of confusion with radiation decay rates!

 

I think the US Department of Homeland Security labs know exactly what half life means...

 

60 degrees is plenty to dissolve the virus outer casing

Edited June 4, 2020 by maico

[Hroth]

12 minutes ago, maico said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2020/04/27/the-health-202-sunlight-does-kill-the-coronavirus-but-not-in-the-way-trump-suggested/5ea5993e88e0fa3dea9c2b24/

 

Hmmmm....

 

Couldn't read it because

 

• The Washington Post wanted me to take their cookies. (Which I agreed to)
• Put up their paywall with limited ad-hoc access (which I used)
• Blocked everything because I had the temerity to be running an ad-blocker and insisted that I disabled it for them (Which I won't)

 

So that was that!  Bleached the browser and logged back into RMweb.

 

Quote

I think the US Department of Homeland Security labs know exactly what half means...

 

I wouldn't trust Homeland Security to know anything!

 

(I'll just mention that RMweb is whitelisted in the ad-blocker)

Edited June 4, 2020 by Hroth

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

My mum bought a box of 50 at Evesham Country park 2 days ago for normal money.

 

However, as we are talking about face coverings, just wear a bandana, homemade mask or scarf.

 

 

Maybe "we Brits" ought to learn how to do things without being told by the government. Either that or stop banging on about our "common sense". No-one was stopping anyone wearing a mask before. I've worn my (homemade) one a few times in the last couple of weeks when in confined spaces.

 

Phil, here where I live masks have been unavailable to buy everywhere (where I have looked) until the last week or so, and even now not every major shop / chemist / supermarket has them.

 

I agree mostly about doing things without being told by the government - but the mixed messages re masks over the last weeks does not give confidence either. I question also the medical usefulness / effectiveness of  wearing a bandanna, homemade mask or scarf, especially if NOT wearing "something" may become a fineable offence. Wrap a scarf round your head in the middle of summer on the stifling hot tube ?

 

I have ordered some masks today, and will wear them when needed, but not everywhere. Yes another (personal) grey area for me. I think most people think similarly - some wear them, some don't. 

 

Mask supply at fair prices is a concern - not everyone can surf the web.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by APOLLO

[AY Mod]

29 minutes ago, maico said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2020/04/27/the-health-202-sunlight-does-kill-the-coronavirus-but-not-in-the-way-trump-suggested/5ea5993e88e0fa3dea9c2b24/

 

Too many variables which are needed to qualify your statement in there. 

 

 

Quote

The results are preliminary and haven’t been peer reviewed

 

A long way from being a verified fact.

[BR(S)]

Social distancing, particularly of 2m, is never going to be financially or practically sustainable on transport, or indeed in many other places, especially from June 15th when all non-essential shops can open.  The document published by the joint railway group (Rail Delivery Group, unions, TOCs) put together for the Covid-19 strategy states that social distancing will have to be self-policed by passengers as it's just not possible by rail staff or police.

 

Masks/coverings are a way to try to counteract the breakdown of social distancing to some extent, but as with all such things there is a wealth of contradictory evidence as to the effectiveness (in the same way that some countries call for 1.5m distancing, others 1m, others have focussed on the importance of 15 minutes of interaction too and so on).  The saying I'm seeing over and over again with regard to face coverings is "My mask protects you and your mask protects me", i.e. they reduce the chance of passing on the virus to others by some extent that is useful enough to be used.  

 

I'm still washing my hands, keeping my distance etc etc at the moment and I continue to take a "reduce the risk" approach but not a "you've just got within 1.99m of me, I must scream at you" approach.  However, my biggest concern now is that the effect of all this in terms of the economic impact and all its related terrible outcomes is FAR more risky than the virus itself.  We've had time to react, hospitals have been developed, the vulnerable know to shield and everyone is aware that there's a new virus in town.  Anything that has been shown to be useful to some degree and attempts to counter the devastating impact of economic paralysis, such as use of face masks to counter an inevitable and necessary reduction of social distancing, is welcome by me.   

[Legend]

26 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Phil, here where I live masks have been unavailable to buy everywhere (where I have looked) until the last week or so, and even now not every major shop / chemist / supermarket has them.

 

I agree mostly about doing things without being told by the government - but the mixed messages re masks over the last weeks does not give confidence either. I question also the medical usefulness / effectiveness of  wearing a bandanna, homemade mask or scarf, especially if NOT wearing "something" may become a fineable offence. Wrap a scarf round your head in the middle of summer on the stifling hot tube ?

 

I have ordered some masks today, and will wear them when needed, but not everywhere. Yes another (personal) grey area for me. I think most people think similarly - some wear them, some don't. 

 

Mask supply at fair prices is a concern - not everyone can surf the web.

 

Brit15

 

 

hmmm . You don’t  think that it’s now recommended to wear face masks simply  because they are now available whereas previously it would further have restricted supplies to NHS ?  We should probably have been wearing them weeks ago . It’s a bit like quarantining . It wasn’t thought necessary at the peak of the pandemic ( even though most other countries were doing it) but now suddenly it’s recommended .  
 

I was surprised to see Marks and Spencer have masks and hand sanitiser for sale at the checkouts a few weeks ago, so they are certainly becoming more available . I bought mine from amazon before the lockdown started because you could see it coming - even if the government didn’t! 

[monkeysarefun]

No offence intended but looked at from here the British government response seems to be try a bit of this then  try a bit of that but not make it too much of an imposition then pretty much give up if its too hard and  pretend its all over.

 

Hong Kong avoided major shutdowns but  experience with previous virus epidemics ensured mask wearing was pretty much 100%, resulting in I think 4 deaths and around 1000 cases in their tiny crowded island  so mask wearing is effective but has to be universal.

 

In 10 days New Zealand will officially announce they have eliminated the virus  since no new cases have been detected there for some weeks. They shut their borders early and emphatically , despite the economic hardship that would result.

 

So did Australia, and now apart from some small problem outbreaks in Victoria  our only new  cases are those picked up on returned residents who are tested during their mandatory 14  day isolation in hotels. Community transmission is pretty much over so we are also on the way to eliminating the virus

 

The UK is an island (or several)  too, it has always been your best defence whether its from Vikings or Spanish and French or the Nazis -  , whats gone so wrong this time?

 

Quarantining  definitely  works, but has to be mandatory and enforced, not the wishy washy self isolation the UK government has announced where you can travel around on the public transport system and visit the shops on the way then promise you won't leave your home. What is that?

 

Reading the comments in the British press about how business will suffer and the airlines will suffer if you bring in a quarantine etc etc. Boo hoo, Australia and New Zealand rely even more so on foreign business but the governments weighed up public health vs economy and decided health was the priority and stuck to that . As a result our lockdowns and shutdowns are diminishing  and life is getting back to a kind of normal.  Dominic Cummings was even able to attend the Parramatta V Brisbane NRL match last weekend.

 

Looking at the UK govt response  from this distance, it seems they have  swung back and forth between favouring health then favouring  the economy then back again,  without wanting to do things they fear will be too hard with the result that both will end up suffering badly, it seems like at the start they didn't even want to bother and now are stumbling between acting like its all over and  dabbling  half heartedly trying random things.

 

The Australia / England banter and light hearted rivalry thing has been a long running feature between us - we win the ashes, you send us Leo Sayer etc. In this case though their definitely hasn't been any moment here  where anyone has crowed about  how we did better  than the UK,  everyone here is just sad, incredulous  and shocked about the death rate there and the way the UK government has handled it all.

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

, it seems like at the start they didn't even want to bother and now are stumbling between acting like its all over and  dabbling  half heartedly trying random things.

 

 

Agreed, Johnson didn't even turn up for the first 5 Cobra meetings on the subject apparentky, then there was the "I'm still shaking hands" stupidity. Now it does appear to be pretty random. 

[BR(S)]

7 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Looking at the UK govt response  from this distance, it seems they have  swung back and forth between favouring health then favouring  the economy then back again,  without wanting to do things they fear will be too hard with the result that both will end up suffering badly, it seems like at the start they didn't even want to bother and now are stumbling between acting like its all over and  dabbling  half heartedly trying random things.

 

Agreed, almost like they were a government voted in to do one thing and damn everything else, that then found itself in the deep end with an actual crisis to deal with where shouting slogans didn't quite cut it . . . 

[maico]

9 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

No offence intended but looked at from here the British government response seems to be try a bit of this then  try a bit of that but not make it too much of an imposition then pretty much give up if its too hard and  pretend its all over.

 

Hong Kong avoided major shutdowns but  experience with previous virus epidemics ensured mask wearing was pretty much 100%, resulting in I think 4 deaths and around 1000 cases in their tiny crowded island  so mask wearing is effective but has to be universal.

 

In 10 days New Zealand will officially announce they have eliminated the virus  since no new cases have been detected there for some weeks. They shut their borders early and emphatically , despite the economic hardship that would result.

 

So did Australia, and now apart from some small problem outbreaks in Victoria  our only new  cases are those picked up on returned residents who are tested during their mandatory 14  day isolation in hotels. Community transmission is pretty much over so we are also on the way to eliminating the virus

 

The UK is an island (or several)  too, it has always been your best defence whether its from Vikings or Spanish and French or the Nazis -  , whats gone so wrong this time?

 

Quarantining  definitely  works, but has to be mandatory and enforced, not the wishy washy self isolation the UK government has announced where you can travel around on the public transport system and visit the shops on the way then promise you won't leave your home. What is that?

 

Reading the comments in the British press about how business will suffer and the airlines will suffer if you bring in a quarantine etc etc. Boo hoo, Australia and New Zealand rely even more so on foreign business but the governments weighed up public health vs economy and decided health was the priority and stuck to that . As a result our lockdowns and shutdowns are diminishing  and life is getting back to a kind of normal.  Dominic Cummings was even able to attend the Parramatta V Brisbane NRL match last weekend.

 

Looking at the UK govt response  from this distance, it seems they have  swung back and forth between favouring health then favouring  the economy then back again,  without wanting to do things they fear will be too hard with the result that both will end up suffering badly, it seems like at the start they didn't even want to bother and now are stumbling between acting like its all over and  dabbling  half heartedly trying random things.

 

The Australia / England banter and light hearted rivalry thing has been a long running feature between us - we win the ashes, you send us Leo Sayer etc. In this case though their definitely hasn't been any moment here  where anyone has crowed about  how we did better  than the UK,  everyone here is just sad, incredulous  and shocked about the death rate there and the way the UK government has handled it all.

 

Take a look at the deaths per million pop figures of Belgium vs the UK, Spain, Italy and France.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

What did Belgium do wrong? We don't know the full storey yet but Belguim has the highest percentage of people in care homes in Europe and Covid-19 got into those homes as it did in the UK. That's where more than half of deaths have occured.

 

[Mountain Goat]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Why?

 

The Government has already stated that those with a relevant disability or breathing difficulties will be exempt.

 

If its simply because you find them uncomfortable then join the club! Lots of people are currently having to wear them but hate them.

 

 

 

I am in an inbetween stage of having difficulties but on one of those lists to be assessed, so officially I am not able to be an exception as officially I don't have any issues. Anyway. Nothing I can do about it so I will just carry on as I am. Besides, the nearest public transport is a couple of miles away, so I rarely use it as when I get issues walking distances is out of the question. 

 

I know. I need to count my blessings. I am ok as I am at the moment so as the saying goes "It might never happen". 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Mountain Goat

[maico]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Too many variables which are needed to qualify your statement in there. 

 

 

 

A long way from being a verified fact.

 

I said 'here's a tip' not this is a verified fact. I then quoted the US Government Homeland Security research figures.

Have you read the full report?

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Take a look at the deaths per million pop figures of Belgium vs the UK, Spain, Italy and France.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

What did Belgium do wrong? We don't know the full storey yet but Belguim has the highest percentage of people in care homes in Europe and Covid-19 got into those homes as it did in the UK. That's where more than half of deaths have occured.

 

 

The explanation for the 'high' death rate in Belgium is that they are recording deaths where they think the person had Covid-19, rather than where they've proved this through testing:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52491210

 

I've seen suggestions that the reverse is happening in certain other European countries - that they are under reporting deaths, for example attributing deaths of Covid-19 infected people with underlying conditions to that condition. Basically, everyone seems to be counting it slightly differently.

 

 

 

[rob D2]

A law isn’t much good if it’s unenforceable - they didn’t make much effort with the lack of social distancing at certain recent gatherings .

 

Theres been too much “ where possible”, “ if possible”....should have gone in harder earlier.

 

like the CEO of heathrow said we are in danger of moving from a pandemic to an employment pandemic now.

[AY Mod]

24 minutes ago, maico said:

Have you read the full report?

 

Nope, too busy dealing with unnecessary matters.

 

Quote

The half life of the virus is 2 minutes in saliva exposed to sunlight.

 

No matter what you prefaced it with that sentence, in isolation, containing the word 'is' means you positing it as a fact and from what I did read it is not proven so please don't present it as gospel to readers. 

[Southernman46]

Straight out of my head so unstructured but …………………….

I couldn't give a flying feltooly for the evidence either way - this issue is real and the Government have made a b*llocks of it - my journey is SWR Crewkerne - Waterloo and then Jubilee to Canning Town & DLR to Gallions Reach or W+C to Bank & DLR to Gallions Reach. The disgusting habits of the travelling public have appalled me for some time prior to CoVid19 - open coughing & sneezing etc, etc. on all legs and I have pretty much used a zipped up fleece as "protection" since November along with covered wrist & elbow contact of door buttons etc. against anything - colds, flu, lurgi, dry rot, woodworm, etc.  Prevention is the thing ………………….

I am pretty sure I caught this thing back in late Jan and spent a VERY uncomfortable three weeks (not realising what it was) - until I was told what the sputum looked like which pretty much confirmed it for me. I am fortunate that the Company had taken sensible action in March that resulted in each team member working the minimum number of shifts despite the 24/7 nature of the railway. I have also been forced to avoid public transport due to the revised shift times. This will all change in a week when the normal roster is re-established and I am back to travelling on the trains …………………. NO problem with masking up and gloving up - even if I look like a complete muppet - I have no intention of catching anything - we haven't seen the back of this by a long stretch and I have my little tribe to think of ………………………… I am hopefully more likely to be at risk of getting mugged in E. London for my mask rather than catching anything. The public will also benefit from not catching it off me too ……………….

Edited June 4, 2020 by Southernman46
bad roof preading

[darrel]

Today I have seen 3 people wearing face masks in an 8 hour shift. The majority of people just dont care. Also the amount of junkies drunks and young team travelling is a joke. One thing still to be spotted is the lesser spotted BTP

[bazjones1711]

there is no shortage of masks , never has been just probably  goverments incompetence  for the last few months , where i work we supply masks to the public , you can buy as many as you like from china , place your order , air freighted over in a little over 36 hours to your door , we have sold over 5000 just today , ,a wise man would spend £250,000 for a full container and treble his money , don't know how they will enforce it on the train , the crack heads will kick of so be left alone by the guard , oh the guard does not come round anymore  ..why ... because the train is free as they don't issue tickets anymore , i have not paid for my journey for over 3 months now and expect this to go on until at least October

 

[YesTor]

3 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

The UK is an island (or several)  too, it has always been your best defence whether its from Vikings or Spanish and French or the Nazis -  , whats gone so wrong this time?

 

The UK may well be an island, however it's an overcrowded one... 

 

Population density:

 

UK: 274 people per km²
New Zealand: 18 people per km²

Australia: 3.2 people per km² 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by YesTor

[bazjones1711]

Why try and enforce us to wear masks and try to stop us getting to work  , yet when they protest in london , cardiff etc...in large numbers  against racism its   ok to have large gatherings , they should have dispersed them all with water cannon 

[monkeysarefun]

2 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

The UK may well be an island, however it's an overcrowded one... 

 

Population density:

 

UK: 274 people per km²
New Zealand: 18 people per km²

Australia: 3.2 people per km² 

 

 

 

 

True, but if you are saying we here are all spread out with oodles of land between us , those figures are a bit deceptive. 70% of us live in the metropolitan areas of our capital cities and another 20% live in major towns. The density of Sydney is 430 people per sqkm, Melbourne is 500.  If a virus outbreak had been let run unchecked in either of these cities we'd have seen infection rates comparable to Italy, UK, Spain and so on. Early Govt modelling in Feb predicted 150,000 deaths here based on the early figures coming out of Italy etc, hence our govt cracked down very quickly. 

[Rivercider]

2 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

 

True, but if you are saying we here are all spread out with oodles of land between us , those figures are a bit deceptive. 70% of us live in the metropolitan areas of our capital cities and another 20% live in major towns. The density of Sydney is 430 people per sqkm, Melbourne is 500.  If a virus outbreak had been let run unchecked in either of these cities we'd have seen infection rates comparable to Italy, UK, Spain and so on. Early Govt modelling in Feb predicted 150,000 deaths here based on the early figures coming out of Italy etc, hence our govt cracked down very quickly. 

Without checking the figures I would imagine that the sheer number of flights and ferries that arrive in the UK each day means that infection can arrive via multiple routes. Asymptomatic carriers take the virus into the population at large, London then being an ideal breeding ground.

I'm not suggesting it is 'easy' to control the infection coming into say Australia or NZ, but it must be much easier than controlling spread into the UK.

Could/should the UK have quarantined all the 10s of thousand of UK nationals returning from abroad at the start, (and all the lorry drivers arriving at Dover etc each day since)?

How we get around this in the long term I don't really know. 

 

cheers