More model ideas

[The Johnster]

Of course, I very strongly approve of any suggestion involving pre-grouping Welsh prototypes, especially South Wales prototypes.  The low-hanging fruit is probably the Taff A and the Rhymney R, both numerous and long-serving, but there are plenty of other candidates.  The TVR O and U series shared components, and the O4 lasted in service into the mid-50s.  The Rhymney Stephensons included the P and M variants, and other similar locos appeared on the Brecon & Merthyr and the Neath & Brecon (though I doubt either of them ever saw the sky over Brecon...). 

 

The GW's policy with their grouping-inherited fleet was to rebuild them as boilers came up for renewal with standard Swindon boilers, and of course other Swindon bits and pieces appeared on them as well.  Collett designed the no.10 boiler for this purpose though it also appeared on his 2251s and Hawksworths 94xx and 15xx panniers.  This means that more than one variant of Taff A, 04, and of the Rhymney Stephensons, could be tooled for using the same chassis and running plates.  Some Swindonised Taff As recieved Swindon tanks, while others retained their TVR tanks with rounded top edges; I have no idea why...  Collett was clearly impressed with the Rhymney R, and one can regard his 56xx as an R built out of Swindon standard components.

 

I would bite the hand off any RTR company that produced the TVR twin gangwayed auto-trailer sets that ended their lives on the Porthcawl branch between 1953 and 1958, but accept that this really is a bit esoteric and unlikely to be ever produced.  There's not even a kit... 

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, BVMR21 said:

... there is a lack of anything pregrouping from Wales, ...

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Didn't someone do the Kerr Stuart Victory Class that the Alexandra Docks and Brecon & Merthyr had?

Depends on your definition of READY to run ..... the basic model is as built and I'm not sure how long before significant difference appeared - though Planet offer rivetted tank side etches for later condition.

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Depends on your definition of READY to run ..... the basic model is as built and I'm not sure how long before significant difference appeared - though Planet offer rivetted tank side etches for later condition.

 

They didn't get altered until GWR days so they are fine for pre grouping era. They weren't built until 1917, then sold off as surplus in 1920. So I can't see much change happening in those six years.

 

Personally not for me as CSP make the GWR/BR version and if I wanted one I would go for that.

 

https://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&manufacturer_id=21&product_id=114

 

 

Jason

Edited February 23 by Steamport Southport

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

... They weren't built until 1917, then sold off as surplus in 1920. So I can't see much change happening in those six years. ...

...and, of course, strictly speaking,  that's something under three years of pre-grouping ownership for you to base your layout on ! 🙄

 

Oh, hang on, weren't the South Wales Companies grouped into the GWR before 1923 ??!?

Edited February 23 by Wickham Green too

[Steamport Southport]

52 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

...and, of course, strictly speaking,  that's something under three years of pre-grouping ownership for you to base your layout on ! 🙄

 

Oh, hang on, weren't the South Wales Companies grouped into the GWR before 1923 ??!?

 

Depends on the company.

 

It was between 1922 and 1924.

 

 

[The Johnster]

There were close links between some of the South Wales independents and the GW long before the grouping, close enough for the Barry to be able to borrow some 31xx large prairies from the bigger company to work the Cardiff (Clarence Road) services on their Cogan branch.  The Clarence Road branch from the Riverside platforms of Cardiff (General) was owned by the GW which worked freight over it, but had no GW passenger service, the Barry working in over running powers from Cogan and Pontypridd Graig via St.Fagan's, the genesis of the later (in)famous St.Fagan's Pullman, and the Taff Vale from Penarth or Cadoxton via Penarth.  The GW supplied three brand new small prairies from Swindon to the Rhondda & Swansea Bay company, in their full deep red livery, the locos being given their original intended GW numbers at the grouping.  The Taff Vale originally shared many directors with the GW, being promoted by the same Bristol business interests. 

 

In contrast, the LNWR had a controlling shareholding in the Rhymney after bailing it out of a financial hole following problems building the Caerphilly Tunnel, and kept a Ramsbottom saddle tank at the Rhymney's Cardiff East Dock shed to work the short length of LNWR track in the docks system that accessed their West Dock warehouse, still in existence as a posh hotel.  The loco was named Marchioness of Bute, perhaps a bit of diplomacy towards the owneres of Cardiff Docks.  The Midland, which had absorbed the Swansea Vale in a very hostile and unpleasant takeover, accessed it via the Neath & Brecon, and running powers to Brecon from Worcester over GW metals to Hereford which they only invoked for loco delivery and works visit purposes; they also owned the Hereford-Three Cocks branch and reached Brecon with running powers over the Cambrian Mid-Wales section.

 

There were distinct alliances and enmities between different groups of the pre-grouping companies all over the place, and it was sometimes not easy to work out what and where they were.  The GW were closely linked to the GC for through workings and of course the Joint Line through High Wycombe.

[BVMR21]

As @The Johnster says there were some close links between various pregrouping Welsh railways. Of course it all depends on which railway, but given the Taff Vale was only a year younger than the Great Western Railway, it could be argued that models of TVR locos are long overdue, same with the Rhymney Railway.

Something like the TVR O1, O2, U, and U1 could work (given they shared a number of parts between them I believe), and maybe the Rhymeny R Class, as the direct predecessor to the 56xx.

[The Johnster]

Not to mention that some of the TV locos you mention had industrial lives in collieries, sold out of GW service, and post-industrial lives in preservation.  A chassis block and mechanism for a Rhymney R could be common to the P and M, and possibly S class, as well as other South Walian Stephenson 0-6-2Ts and the Cardiff Railway H.  The Barry bought in, from Sharpe Stewart mostly but some American-built locos from Cooke; the Sharpies were off the peg and could possibly represent other customers' locos as well.  Same goes for the TV & R&SB's Kitsons.  Post-grouping, many of the GW's acquisitons were used away from their native turf; for example Barry had several rebuilt Taff As and Dyffryn Yard had at least one unrebuilt Rhymney R, both well into BR times.  The Cardiff's little Kitson 1338 ended up at Bridgewater, and eventually Didcot GWS.  There were rebuilt Rhymney Ks, outside framed inside cylindered 0-6-2 pannier tanks, the Newport A.D.&R. had an outside framed ex-Mersey Railway condensing Beyer-Peacock open cab 0-6-4T; you want left-field oddball variety, we had loads of it!

 

South Wales' railway network was complex, and with Welsh place names to contend with somewhat confusing to those not familiar with it.  It was characterised by intense working of coal traffic over relatively short distances, steep gradients even where lines followed the course of rivers in Valleys, extremely steep on some of the latercomers to the party that had to cross the grain of the country, oddities of working practice, heaps of broken wagonry at the bottom of gradients, 'incline working', railways like the Brecon & Merthyr that couldn't afford any more than the most basic station facilities, and like the South Wales Mineral that couldn't afford new locos or stock, but nevertheless managed to penetrate the most remote mountain fastnesses beyond Glyncorrwg.  The alliances and emnities were complex and intricate, leading to for example the Cardiff Railway building a main line to a junction with the Taff Vale at Treforest which saw the passage of one coal train on it's opening day and was immediately closed forever by court order.

 

Congestion at docks where coal was exported was chronic and affected both rail and marine traffic.  Cardiff alone exported 14 million tons in 1911, and it was said that one could walk across the West Dock on the decks of ships moored alongside each other.  This led to new docks being built and in the case of the Barry, an entire new port and a town to go with it.  The ports were affected by the Bristol Channel's fearsome tidal range, and could not be accessed for most of a working day.  The smaller ones that were unable to expand their wharfage or sea-lock capacity went under at the height of the coal export traffic, examples being Porthcawl, Llanelli, and Penarth. 

 

On the Taff Vale, the permissive relief lines quadrupling the track between Pontypridd and Radyr would be nose-to-tail fully occupied for it's entire 6-mile length by about 5 in the evening and take about 5 hours to clear, with traffic joining the party from the Rhymney's Penrhos incline, and even in the 1970s would be blocked back to Walnut Tree and take about 2 hours to clear.  The Barry's Vale of Glamorgan extension and the Cardiff Railway's main line were laid out for coal trains to have clear runs through stations while the less important and less profitable passenger trains were put into platform loops to let the coal through, because that's where the money was.

 

The ironworks that originated the need for these lines (Cyfarthfa in Merthyr was the world's largest at one time) were soon eclipsed by the coal traffic, and once local iron ore was worked out and the expense of hauling loaded trains up the valleys became prohibitive, tended to re-appear in coastal locations which generated limestone and even more coal traffic, as did 20th century power station expansion.  There was railway activity in every direction you looked, along with spinning colliery headgear and aerial ropeway waste buckets climbing mountains, and most valleys had more than one line; the Taff between Nantgarw and Pontypridd had four, and a canal. Caerphilly, the Carlisle of Wales, had passenger services on the Rhymney, the Brecon & Merthyr, the Pontypridd, Caerphilly, & Newport, the Newport AD&R, and the Barry.

Edited February 24 by The Johnster

[Fredo]

Hi, 

How about Dia 1/163 1/165 1/166 and 1/168 Iron ore hoppers in OO gauge?

Thanks Fred

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, BVMR21 said:

As @The Johnster says there were some close links between various pregrouping Welsh railways. Of course it all depends on which railway, but given the Taff Vale was only a year younger than the Great Western Railway, it could be argued that models of TVR locos are long overdue, same with the Rhymney Railway.

Something like the TVR O1, O2, U, and U1 could work (given they shared a number of parts between them I believe), and maybe the Rhymeny R Class, as the direct predecessor to the 56xx.

 

Whilst very admirable you have to sell more than two and I severely doubt the demand is there for RTR pre grouping South Wales locomotives. Certainly not in the thousands you would need for it to be viable.

 

Nucast and SE Finecast do kits for them. Maybe send a bit of business their way?

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Oh I don't know.  Produce them and the collectors (along with more than a few active modellers who like the look of them will buy some of them, there are a growing number of South Wales layouts out there, albeit reliant on GW or LNW RTR, and if esoteric numerically small and very geographically restricted (for the bulk of their working lives) obscure one-branch prototypes like Adams Radials or Beattie Well Tanks can be commercially successful RTR, then there has to be a case for a pre-grouping South Wales one, surely.  I rather doubt that Rapido's upcoming 44xx is being produced in many thousands; modern production methods mean that shorter runs are becoming more viable.  There are examples of pre-grouping Southern, LMS, and LNER locos in the RTR canon, but no GW absorbed/constituent types.  Plenty pre-1923 GW of course, but that's not quite the same thing.  Kits are all very well but do not equal the standard or value of current RTR production.  Plenty ATW and Veolia liveried South Wales dmus about and they seem to sell well. 

 

I don't have any particular wishlist axe to grind here, this is merely comment, as my layout needs Tondu-allocated locos and these, for my period, were exclusively GW tank engines.  In fact, I would prefer to see an RTR 1854 or 2721 half-cab pannier first.  As to kits, as well as the TV a and Rhymney R you mention, Southeastern Finecast still produce the very long-in-the-tooth Wills TVR U1, I believe, but I am not sure that they do a chassis for it.  The original kit was designed to run on the Hornby Dublo R1 mech, no longer available new.

 

Nobody is making RTR passenger rolling stock, NPCCS, or goods brake vans for any of the pre-grouping constituent companies of the LMS or the LNER except for Hornby generic 4/6 wheelers.  That's right, no Midland, Caley, LNWR, or GNR, GER (including LNER 57' GE section), GCR, NER, or NBR. at all, as if modellers of those grouped railways (and there are a lot of those) think that all but the top link services were run with the latest stock.  Before anyone points them out, I do not consider the starter-set Hornby 4-wheelers, or the Triang Dean Clerestories in their various liveries and the Triang Caleys, all on B1 bogies, as worth serious consideration, and the short wheelbase Hornby starter set toy 4-wheelers which are claimed to represent S&DJ prototypes not worthy of any consideration at all.  Pre-grouping Southern Railway constituent passenger/NPCCS stock does exist and sells well, as does GW pre-grouping stock of the same type.

 

Goods stock of pre-grouping companies has made its appearance in the last few years and is very welcome.  Come to that, Triang dabbled in Hull & Barnsley vans years ago, but on generic chassis and too high off the rail.  There were plenty of pre-grouping PO livieried wagons available back in the day as well, but in many cases the liveries and accuracy were questionable; PO stock is a bit of a minefield even before spurious liveries are considered. 

 

My prediction, FWIW, is that as my generation of modellers dies out, the accepted wisdom that, in order to be acceptable to the market, locos and stock must have been in service in the 1960s, already being eroded, will vanish with the last of us that remember it in service in the 1960s (it is already moving to the 1950s), meaning that those taking up steam-era modelling will be more likely to be interested in pre-grouping, Victorian, and early railways; the early railways RTR genre has been around since the days of the Triang Rocket and Trix Adler, and recent additions are developing interest in this era.

 

Which would increase the probability of RTR pre-grouping South Wales stuff.

 

Edited February 25 by The Johnster

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Oh I don't know.  Produce them and the collectors (along with more than a few active modellers who like the look of them will buy some of them, there are a growing number of South Wales layouts out there, albeit reliant on GW or LNW RTR, and if esoteric numerically small and very geographically restricted (for the bulk of their working lives) obscure one-branch prototypes like Adams Radials or Beattie Well Tanks can be commercially successful RTR, then there has to be a case for a pre-grouping South Wales one, surely.  I rather doubt that Rapido's upcoming 44xx is being produced in many thousands; modern production methods mean that shorter runs are becoming more viable.  There are examples of pre-grouping Southern, LMS, and LNER locos in the RTR canon, but no GW absorbed/constituent types.  Plenty pre-1923 GW of course, but that's not quite the same thing.  Kits are all very well but do not equal the standard or value of current RTR production.  Plenty ATW and Veolia liveried South Wales dmus about and they seem to sell well. 

 

I don't have any particular wishlist axe to grind here, this is merely comment, as my layout needs Tondu-allocated locos and these, for my period, were exclusively GW tank engines.  In fact, I would prefer to see an RTR 1854 or 2721 half-cab pannier first.  As to kits, as well as the TV a and Rhymney R you mention, Southeastern Finecast still produce the very long-in-the-tooth Wills TVR U1, I believe, but I am not sure that they do a chassis for it.  The original kit was designed to run on the Hornby Dublo R1 mech, no longer available new.

 

Nobody is making RTR passenger rolling stock, NPCCS, or goods brake vans for any of the pre-grouping constituent companies of the LMS or the LNER except for Hornby generic 4/6 wheelers.  That's right, no Midland, Caley, LNWR, or GNR, GER (including LNER 57' GE section), GCR, NER, or NBR. at all, as if modellers of those grouped railways (and there are a lot of those) think that all but the top link services were run with the latest stock.  Before anyone points them out, I do not consider the starter-set Hornby 4-wheelers, or the Triang Dean Clerestories in their various liveries and the Triang Caleys, all on B1 bogies, as worth serious consideration, and the short wheelbase Hornby starter set toy 4-wheelers which are claimed to represent S&DJ prototypes not worthy of any consideration at all.  Pre-grouping Southern Railway constituent passenger/NPCCS stock does exist and sells well, as does GW pre-grouping stock of the same type.

 

Goods stock of pre-grouping companies has made its appearance in the last few years and is very welcome.  Come to that, Triang dabbled in Hull & Barnsley vans years ago, but on generic chassis and too high off the rail.  There were plenty of pre-grouping PO livieried wagons available back in the day as well, but in many cases the liveries and accuracy were questionable; PO stock is a bit of a minefield even before spurious liveries are considered. 

 

My prediction, FWIW, is that as my generation of modellers dies out, the accepted wisdom that, in order to be acceptable to the market, locos and stock must have been in service in the 1960s, already being eroded, will vanish with the last of us that remember it in service in the 1960s (it is already moving to the 1950s), meaning that those taking up steam-era modelling will be more likely to be interested in pre-grouping, Victorian, and early railways; the early railways RTR genre has been around since the days of the Triang Rocket and Trix Adler, and recent additions are developing interest in this era.

 

Which would increase the probability of RTR pre-grouping South Wales stuff.

 

BUT.... anything that covers multiple eras will always retain more commercial appeal than an item that only sits in one.

 

Thus, late pre-group designs, say 1914-23, that survived through the Big Four era into BR ownership and/or subsequent industrial use will continue to be a relatively safe bet. 

 

Brands will need to pick a company to be certain of having coaches and wagons from the same one to run with their locos and, so far, the one garnering most support has been the SECR, with product from Bachmann, Hatton's, Hornby, Rails/Dapol, and Rapido.... 

 

There are also a few near misses, one of Bachmann's LMS brakes is a Midland design repeated, and Rapido's SECR 6-wheeler could be issued in MR/LMS liveries with 90%+ of us being incapable of pointing out what was wrong about it....

 

John

Edited February 25 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

In addition to which some pre-grouping railways bought secondhand coaching stock from other railways and outsourced new supply.  Companies like Metropolitan C&W, Ashbury, Birmingham RC&W and others supplied similar products off the peg to several companies, much like Sharp Stewart, Kitsons, or Beyer Peacock did with locomotives. 

 

One could supply a moderately generic range of stock suitable for, say, the 1850-70 period, using these widely available products.  Jenny Linds, Sharpies, Stephenson Long Boilers, Cramptons, Burys; all appeared in very similar form all over the place, and many were absorbed into bigger companies by amalgamation, so that while a company never ordered a Jenny Lind or a Beyer Peacock, it might well end up with one on it's books; the same applied to the carriage builders.  That period has much to commend it for modelling purposes; shorter locos and stock, shorter trains, space saving turntables, sector plates, and traversers at termini, plainer signalling, colourful liveries, no vacuum/air/steam heating bags to worry about, exposed cab detail, lots of polished metal.  Mechs small enough in 4mm scale are readily available these days.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

... and Rapido's SECR 6-wheeler could be issued in MR/LMS liveries with 90%+ of us being incapable of pointing out what was wrong about it....

No Midlands-based retailer seems to have commissioned such a deceit ......... might that suggest that they've been advised to wait for the real thing ??!? 

[TravisM]

With the 50th anniversary of the introduction of the XP64 set, it would be nice if that was produced and I believe that individual coaches had quite long service lives.

[Wickham Green too]

40 minutes ago, TravisM said:

... XP64 set, it would be nice ...

If you want opening doors you'll have to ask Triang !

[97406]

50 minutes ago, TravisM said:

With the 50th anniversary of the introduction of the XP64 set, it would be nice if that was produced and I believe that individual coaches had quite long service lives.

 

Shurely shome mishtake. I’m sure you meant to say the 60th. would make for an interesting model for sure.

[Covkid]

On 25/02/2024 at 11:31, Fredo said:

Hi, 

How about Dia 1/163 1/165 1/166 and 1/168 Iron ore hoppers in OO gauge?

Thanks Fred

Any transition era iron hoppers would be most welcome, but also the "standard" 21T hoppers (TOPS HTO HTV) very much welcome.   .

[TravisM]

43 minutes ago, 97406 said:

 

Shurely shome mishtake. I’m sure you meant to say the 60th. would make for an interesting model for sure.

 

Yup, you spotted my deliberate mistake 😂.  I also think it would make a interesting model but probably highly unlikely to be ever produced.

[GordonC]

32 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Any transition era iron hoppers would be most welcome, but also the "standard" 21T hoppers (TOPS HTO HTV) very much welcome.   .

 

haven't we already had HTO/HTV 21t hoppers????

 

[BR Blue]

We have not had HTVs

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

 

Yup, you spotted my deliberate mistake 😂.  I also think it would make a interesting model but probably highly unlikely to be ever produced.

 

In RTR maybe, but Southern Pride did them.

 

 

 

Jason

[IOW O2]

On 08/02/2024 at 18:47, McC said:

Tomorrow. There will also be an announcement at MRS

Unless I've been asleep, was there an announcement?

[farren]

On 25/02/2024 at 21:59, Wickham Green too said:

No Midlands-based retailer seems to have commissioned such a deceit ......... might that suggest that they've been advised to wait for the real thing ??!? 

Didn’t Hornby do some, and if near enough is good enough then Hornby’s near enough should be good enough.
I’d rather wait to see some correct MR, LMS or even L&YR stock for that matter.
 

Not to mention Accurascale being known for making their rolling stock to the same high level of detail has their locomotives. Why on earth would they suddenly drop the standards of models all because it’s LMS! That’s the type of thing Hornby would do and then get it in the neck. Personally I think poor Fran gets enough to reply to with out having to try justify it’s only LMS 

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

haven't we already had HTO/HTV 21t hoppers????

 

 

Not from Accurascale (they have done the 24.5t hoppers).  Hornby released a new tool model of the original unfitted LNER design, but haven't reissued it recently afaik.  BR fitted and unfitted wagons with welded bodies have never been available rtr and neither have the rebodies from the 1970s.  Plenty of variation to have a go at.