More model ideas

[rob D2]

6 hours ago, reddragon said:

As far as I know, Kings Lynn, Peterborough, Bedford, and Cardiff are not in London. Nor Brighton, Dover or Southend.

 

You can model most Southern Routes, LTS, Great Eastern, Great Northern, Midland and Great Western. No other unit type offers this, so that's half the British population covered!

 

In time these units will spread North, but as tested on the WCML from Crewe (not in London), anyone could model them.

 

PS - Southern class 401,402,403,410,411,412,414,416,419,423,450,466,438,491 units have sold well enough, so clearly plenty of Southern DC modellers out there!

Semantics. Ok not London but a hell of a lot of NSE territory .

” have sold well enough “ - have they ? I remember the Bachmann ones discounted to 79 quid to get rid of them , and there’s loads around from this run .

 

Without facts , it’s purely conjecture as to how well they did 

[wombatofludham]

16 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

 

” have sold well enough “ - have they ? I remember the Bachmann ones discounted to 79 quid to get rid of them , and there’s loads around from this run .

 

Without facts , it’s purely conjecture as to how well they did 

Without working at Barwell or Margate, no one will know for sure if units sell in expected quantities for the respective companies.  However.

1) Hornby have retooled their lemon flavoured 4-VEP.  When he announced this unexpected rabbit out of the hat (surprisingly not holding his nose given his kettle fetish) Simon Kohler actually said, on video, that the prices some of their previously poor output were fetching second hand meant it was worth the investment in a retool to address the lemony issues (I paraphrase but I distinctly remember the comment because I'd been saying much the same on this 'ere forum).  If units were slow sellers, they would have spent the money on yet another green tea urn.  When the duff first production run of 4-VEPs regularly sell on Tatbay for north of £200 given the Bay of Tat is the closest thing we have to an open and free market, that also is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest demand for units is strong.

2) Despite the comments on here about pricing, Bachmann have gone ahead with the retooled 4-CEPs in refurbished, rebuilt 1980s condition.  They have also recently released the 2-HAP.  The retool for the CEP would have cost several hundred thousand pounds as all four coach bodies required a retool, although they didn't have to tool up new underpinnings.  If they were getting feedback that the existing CEP models were sales lemons, they would have decided to spend that money elsewhere and given they are in competition for production slots with other companies in the Chinese owned group if the units were not selling, they would have used the precious slots for some other purpose.  They didn't, went ahead with the release and did so despite some price blowback.

3) Dapol have announced a Class 323 unit which no-one was expecting, and Revolution have given in to lobbying to upscale their N scale 321.  Neither of these companies can be considered big enough to "take a punt" on a risky venture, they must expect to be able to make a commercial product.

Cheap sales items a decade or more ago in some retailers is no evidence of slack sales today.  Serious six figure plus sums being spent by companies, none of whom can be considered business suicidalists and who need to make every penny count, is to my mind a better indication of the sales potential of electric units.  That Bachmann can launch the renovated 4-CEP at prices in the region of £500-600 having all the sales data of the original CEP models suggests they see a market that will give enough return on investment, and a hard nosed business decision to produce the model to me trumps any spurious pointing to past occasional sales reductions as "proof".

[Wickham Green too]

OK - if Electrostars are former NSE "only" and not to your liking, what one family of units would be appropriate for the rest of Great Britain ?

[wombatofludham]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

OK - if Electrostars are former NSE "only" and not to your liking, what one family of units would be appropriate for the rest of Great Britain ?

I know the question wasn't aimed at me but the "PEP" type units (313-508) seems a low hanging fruit which I'm surprised hasn't broke ground yet.  They have a multitude of liveries, very standardised bodies and with potential London Transport Museum tie ins as "London Overground" branded units, would almost certainly be a bank-roller for a number of years, with Scotland, Merseyside, north and south London and the south coast, plus Anglia all having seen derivatives of the design.

For me though, an Electrostar that can replicate the various versions made must be on the cards, they work everything from all shacks seaside trundles along the Coastway as three cars to 8 car inter city service from Paddington to Cardiff.

I suspect the PEP and the Electrostar are being worked on as we speak and will be breaking ground in the next 12-18 months.

[Wickham Green too]

Sorry - you jumped in while I was formulating my reply ! 😊

[Steamport Southport]

Far too late for the 507 and 508s.

 

Someone should have done them when Liverpool had the Capital Of Culture and had the special liveries. They would have sold loads of them to the tourists.

 

Also The Beatles and football club ones would have sold to people who aren't railway enthusiasts.

 

 

Jason

[YT-1300]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

OK - if Electrostars are former NSE "only" and not to your liking, what one family of units would be appropriate for the rest of Great Britain ?

The aforementioned PEP's and Mk3 derived units work(ed) from Glasgow to Brighton and beyond, almost every part of the electrified network. 

 

PEP 313/314/315/316/507/508

Mk3 317/318/319/320/321/322/455/456/769

 

No Electrostars have ran in revenue service north of Norfolk, as far as I know (happy to be corrected).  They may serve the majority of the population, but not the majority of the country.

[WCML100]

If you ask me both the PEP and electrostars are ripe for a manufacturer to take the plunge. As others have said, surely only a matter of time? Both have a wide range of liveries and variations which appeal to Accurascale! Ally Pally is around the corner, perfect announcement opportunity?

[rob D2]

Time will tell what they come up with .

 

[XChris]

I would think a DMU would be expected first, then maybe an EMU

[Southernman46]

12 hours ago, reddragon said:

PS - Southern class 401,402,403,410,411,412,414,416,419,423,450,466,438,491 units have sold well enough, so clearly plenty of Southern DC modellers out there!

It's the LMR's turn - so it will be a Class 501 - the basis 57' non-corridor vehicles (with some easy mould mods clearly) are in production right now 😬

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

The aforementioned PEP's and Mk3 derived units work(ed) from Glasgow to Brighton and beyond, almost every part of the electrified network. ... but not the majority of the country.

Now, I'm not sure what proportion of the rail network came within electrified NSE territory but the majority of the country's railways outside this area still rely on diseasel power with an eclectic mix of different types, styles and vintages of units thinly spread between Penzance, Pwllheli, Great Yarmouth and Thurso ...... what new model could be offered to represent that lot ?

[Steamport Southport]

40 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Now, I'm not sure what proportion of the rail network came within electrified NSE territory but the majority of the country's railways outside this area still rely on diseasel power with an eclectic mix of different types, styles and vintages of units thinly spread between Penzance, Pwllheli, Great Yarmouth and Thurso ...... what new model could be offered to represent that lot ?

 

There is more mileage of 25KV than all the SR third rail put together!

 

You do realise that the two main routes to Scotland and most of the north is actually electrified?

 

Then add in places such as East Anglia, the Midlands and much of the ex GWR for good measure. And that total is going up with HS2.

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

Yes - but a lot of that IS within the former NSE area ............ outside of which, electrification is not well represented in most of Wales, Scotland north of the Forth/Clyde corridor, South West Scotland or South West England - even three of the routes to Carlisle are without wires.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes - but a lot of that IS within the former NSE area ............ outside of which, electrification is not well represented in most of Wales, Scotland north of the Forth/Clyde corridor, South West Scotland or South West England - even three of the routes to Carlisle are without wires.

 

Nah. You're just being Londoncentric.

 

According to Wiki (which is using NR stats)

 

Quote

As of October 2023, 6,065 kilometres (3,769 mi) (38%) of the British rail network was electrified.

 

 

Quote

According to Network Rail, as at 2003, 64% of the electrified network used the 25 kV AC overhead system, and 36% used the 660/750 V DC third-rail system

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

 

And don't forget a huge chunk of that Third Rail is actually Merseyrail. 

 

It's time for others to get a look in, the South East has been spoilt rotten for years when it comes to electrics

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

 

They are all just boring units however you look at it...😉

 

Edited March 9 by Dunsignalling

[BVMR21]

Of course a lot of this is assuming there is an Accurascale announcement for Ally Pally......

[Wickham Green too]

So 62% is NOT electrified ..... and 75 miles is a huge chunk of 38% of 6065km, eh !!?!

 

Moreover we're talking about New Models of TRAINS rather than of track mileage and the traffic density outside the former NSE area is generally lower ............. 

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They are all just boring units however you look at it...😉

Some less boring than others : - 

 

Godley ; 6/12/84 .................... WELL outside the NSE area.

[wombatofludham]

On the Electrostar debate, I think the fact they have run on a wide range of services from semi-rural single track (Seaford, King's Lynn) to four track high speed mainline (GN, GW, Brighton Line) does give modellers a chance to justify one, especially those of us who prefer to model "prototypically literate" fictional layouts.  A single track semi-rural layout with an Electrostar wouldn't look odd for anyone concerned that their plans wouldn't allow an Electrostar thinking they are main line only.  I could, for example, see a fictional semi-rural East Anglia layout set in the time of changeover between the Flirts and the Electrostars running both, together with Cross Country 170s and East Midland 158s, plus 66s on intermodals, being prototypically literate whilst offering a "recent history" level of interest for those who are interested in the relatively contemporary scene, and the only missing part of that plan is currently the Electrostar.

I don't think the time has passed for the PEP units - whilst the last few in Merseyside are on their last innings, their high degree of standardisation must surely make manufacture simpler, and being BR-Privatisation era stock will be tapping into what some have observed as a growing area of interest. There's nothing to stop a manufacturer releasing the one off liveries that might appeal to non-modelling ordinaries as they won't be fussed about whether the train is current or not, although I can't actually see a Beatles fan buying a three car Merseyrail unit as a souvenir, Hornby's wagons might just do it but a single train north of £300 isn't going to appeal even to the most rabid Beatles fan.  I think there is room for both PEP and Electrostars and both would help stimulate a new interest, in much the same way I have modified my plans for my rebuild of "Wednesford" in my new home on the back of the announcement of the Dapol 323.

[MJI]

40 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

On the Electrostar debate, I think the fact they have run on a wide range of services from semi-rural single track (Seaford, King's Lynn) to four track high speed mainline (GN, GW, Brighton Line) does give modellers a chance to justify one, especially those of us who prefer to model "prototypically literate" fictional layouts.  A single track semi-rural layout with an Electrostar wouldn't look odd for anyone concerned that their plans wouldn't allow an Electrostar thinking they are main line only.  I could, for example, see a fictional semi-rural East Anglia layout set in the time of changeover between the Flirts and the Electrostars running both, together with Cross Country 170s and East Midland 158s, plus 66s on intermodals, being prototypically literate whilst offering a "recent history" level of interest for those who are interested in the relatively contemporary scene, and the only missing part of that plan is currently the Electrostar.

I don't think the time has passed for the PEP units - whilst the last few in Merseyside are on their last innings, their high degree of standardisation must surely make manufacture simpler, and being BR-Privatisation era stock will be tapping into what some have observed as a growing area of interest. There's nothing to stop a manufacturer releasing the one off liveries that might appeal to non-modelling ordinaries as they won't be fussed about whether the train is current or not, although I can't actually see a Beatles fan buying a three car Merseyrail unit as a souvenir, Hornby's wagons might just do it but a single train north of £300 isn't going to appeal even to the most rabid Beatles fan.  I think there is room for both PEP and Electrostars and both would help stimulate a new interest, in much the same way I have modified my plans for my rebuild of "Wednesford" in my new home on the back of the announcement of the Dapol 323.

 

The PEPs suffer from Cross Country DMUitis, never modelled RTR.

[The Johnster]

Which is exactly why they should be!

 

But what we think will sell well for an RTR producer who asks for our opinions on threads like this will not neccessarily be profitable for the producer even if it sells as well as we predict.  Quite aside from my own wishlisting (which has been reasonably successful, incidentally) I have been suggesting a 120 Swindon x country dmu for years now; it ticks what I think are the boxes.  Long service life, wide geographical spread, distinctive design with a fairly unique cab, could be tooled to represent Scottish Inter-City sets, this time next year we'll all be millionaires, Rodney.  The type has been a consistent high-scorer in the polls for as long as I can remember as well.

 

So, it is reasonable to assume that more than one RTR manufacturer has had a close look at the idea.  And rejected it.  Of course, this is an assumption on my part but I contend that it is a reasonable one, and we are not party to the inner workings of how future planned RTR output is decided upon, much as we'd like to be and think we should be.  And are, to the extent of our input to subjects such as this very one.  Beyond that, the brutal truth is that it is a competitive business and the RTR boys like to keep things under wraps until the project is past the point of no return in case a competitor gazumps them; this is an inevitable result of a competitve market and any collaboration between manufacturers to prevent duplication would be restrictive marketing that would rightly attract the approbation of the authorities.

 

So why have the 120, or for that matter the PEP clones and Electrostars, not made it into the market?  Perhaps they cannot be produced to a decent standard at a cost the market will accept, though other similar types have crossed that bridge.  Tooling suites these days can cater to different cabs, sides, interiors, but must mean that production runs are split and hence lower in numbers, which may well adversly affect profitability.  Don't know much about PEP clones or Electrostars, but to take the 120s as an example there needs to be three cab toolings (original 4 marker lights, 4-character headcode, and modern 2 marker lights), four if you include the Scottish Inter-Cities, and a central trailer difference between buffet and non-buffet vehicles.  Or, you produce one version and risk tee-ing off anyone who wanted a different one. 

 

Modellers of my generation are conditioned to parts being interchangeable between different prototypes and think that, because a company using blue boxes has 'done' the 117 and a 120 uses the same underframe, only the bodies have to be tooled, but it doesn't work like that.  Runs of product are ordered from the Chinese sub-contractors and there is no store of underframes awaiting bodies to be build for them anywhere; nobody carries spares of everything any more.

 

Nevertheless, stuff does eventually make it to market if there is a case for it and an honest wee bobeen can be made out of it.  It's just that we are (rightly) not party to the inner workings at planning meetings and few of us, certainly not me, have much idea of the production engineering issues that are critical to a model's profitability.  Keep your fingers crossed, guys, and remember you don't get if you don't ask.  The communication between us the modellers and the RTR providers is better now than it has ever been!

[MJI]

119 and 117 chassis are similar 120 are totally different.

 

I need to finish glazing mine.

[frobisher]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

And don't forget a huge chunk of that Third Rail is actually Merseyrail. 

 

"Huge"? "Significant" maybe, but not "Huge".  There's "only" two 3rd rail lines there and total length would be less than London-Bournemouth I'd have thought.

[ThaneofFife]

Fran, are you looking at any units?

Would sell my right leg for a 3 car Class 303 EMU in Strathclyde orange and black with full lighting package and a great looking metal pantograph.

 

Plus you know how popular the Scottish Region modelling scene is.... then theres the numerous livery options the refurbished options then the Manchester area options......

Edited March 10 by ThaneofFife
Added detail