Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[mdvle]

On 19/08/2020 at 18:49, Dunsignalling said:

I think there is a fundamental truth about our hobby that few of us seem willing to confront.

 

Yep, if anything there is one truth - that the hobby has always been obsessed with the fallacy that the hobby is dying and there will be no new people coming into the hobby.

 

Everything else about the hobby changes, but that one thing has remained a constant over the entire history of the hobby.

 

On 19/08/2020 at 18:49, Dunsignalling said:

It is that, most who have been involved in it for any substantial period, became interested in railways, and by extension, model railways, when both constituted "mainstream" pastimes. The depth of our involvement has fluctuated over time in order to fit in with other aspect of life, but the roots go way back.

 

Nonsense - the US never had an equivalent of the UK kids waiting on platform ends to document trains and yet somehow it still has a thriving hobby.

 

Similarly in places like the US there are people in the hobby who never got to experience a real train because it is mainly a freight operation.

 

There are all sorts of reasons people join the hobby so being indoctrinated as a kid isn't required.

 

On 19/08/2020 at 18:49, Dunsignalling said:

People's lives, and railways themselves have changed drastically over the past half century and railways have ceased to have a direct relevance to the general populace in anything like the numbers they used to. For most who do still use them, they have assumed the role of a utility, like gas, electricity or water suppliers. For those who don't, they have became objects of indifference, or even contempt. It's therefore totally unrealistic to expect new devotees to be attracted to the railway scene in the numbers we were, growing up between (say) 1955 and 1980. 

 

Again, fallacy.  If all those kids who spent a significant portion of their childhood on station platforms were in this hobby then the hobby would be 100x or more larger than it is.

 

Yes, experiences as a kid can be influential - but we as adults have the capacity to get interested in new things and pursue them regardless of what we experienced as a child.

 

There are a lot of hobbies that still thrive despite the fact that few if any kids participate in them.

 

On 19/08/2020 at 18:49, Dunsignalling said:

Against that background, how can we possibly consider that there will be sufficient new entrants to the hobby to replace even half of those of us who will inevitably leave it over the next over the next couple of decades? The post-war baby boom is working its way out of the demographic, and that has implications far beyond our hobby.

 

"The Trade" is (to put it bluntly) making hay while the sun shines, catering for a hobby dominated by the early-retired on final-salary pensions and with a stake in the "property-owning economy" (yes, I'm one). But that can't possibly last forever with all three becoming less the norm.

 

Shock, horror, the hobby will yet again change to reflect the current time.

 

Unless things get really bad there will still be 45+ year old adults who will desire something to do with their time and will (whether they realize it or not) be looking for a hobby to take up and this hobby will continue to take it's share of those newly created 45 year olds.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

Shock, horror, the hobby will yet again change to reflect the current time.

 

Precisely - the focus on the current sales/production model of RTR is probably a bit excessive. To see where it might go if that sort of trade support went away, look at British-outline TT. Still relatively popular despite the withdrawal of trade support, because it has a community and some smaller suppliers supporting it. 0 gauge did this as well to some extent but is now coming back as an RTR scale.

Edited August 21, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

 

 

 

1. There are all sorts of reasons people join the hobby so being indoctrinated as a kid isn't required.

 

 

2. Yes, experiences as a kid can be influential - but we as adults have the capacity to get interested in new things and pursue them regardless of what we experienced as a child.

 

3. There are a lot of hobbies that still thrive despite the fact that few if any kids participate in them.

 

 

4. Shock, horror, the hobby will yet again change to reflect the current time.

 

Unless things get really bad there will still be 45+ year old adults who will desire something to do with their time and will (whether they realize it or not) be looking for a hobby to take up and this hobby will continue to take it's share of those newly created 45 year olds.

 

 

1. No, but it helped and

 

2. Yes, we can, but general attitudes to railways seem to be less than benign these days.

 

3. We need to stop obsessing about drawing folk in at a young age. I agree (and have stated) that the mid-40s is where most of our "new blood" comes from. Youth recruiting is undoubtedly less relevant than it once was.

 

4. Yes, it will but the birth rate c.1975 (and since) has usually been significantly lower than it was in the "baby boom" years, so there are rather fewer 45 year-olds to draw that share from now than there were when I was 45.

 

Result: Part of that change is likely to be fewer recruits than "leavers" (to put it euphemistically) over the next 20 years or so. 

 

I never said or implied none. Just that it's reasonable to expect the overall numbers not to match.  Comparative mortality vs recruitment will be significant, but numerous societal factors will come to bear on all hobbies, not just ours.

 

Examples:

 

• Declining occupational pensions for those in the private sector that will become general over time.

• The increasing age of first-time homebuyers and the decreasing numbers who are able to buy at all. A mortgage comes to an end, and what I used to spend on mine finances my leisure interests; rent never goes away.

• High rates of marriage breakdown, particularly among those of an age to be anticipating retirement and looking around for activities to pursue when it comes. 

 

Consequent upon those, and others; many more people are forecast to work beyond the "normal" retirement age in future, than has been usual in the past. Some even want to! Being offered the opportunity of "early retirement" on terms favourable enough to actually retire is also becoming rarer.

 

Thus, for many, the amount of time and money available for a hobby, any hobby is coming under pressure and the situation could quite conceivably get worse when the economic aftermath of the Covid pandemic really kicks in. 

 

John  

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

4. Yes, it will but the birth rate c.1975 (and since) has usually been significantly lower than it was in the "baby boom" years, so there are rather fewer 45 year-olds to draw that share from now than there were when I was 45.

i am exactly 45, Ive been a life long enthusiast, since 1977 (my dad told me as a 2 year old he took me to see the last Westerns running), my first photo is sat on 6115 on one of its first mainline trips, but my first memory is 40106 at Preston in 1979, and next 5690 rescuing one on the S&C.

 

My father was a long term volunteer, so naturally was I, every weekend, rain or shine (no age limits then). I would say ive been on a very lonely path, no kids my age liked railways where I  grew up, it was a source of ridicule. I was hanging out with mostly 10-40 years my senior, in the late 1980’s.  I dropped out around 1993-1999 and resurfaced in the US with railroads in 2000, before focussing on world wide railways, especially Eastern Europe, before settling back into UK railways c2010.

 

I would say that in the last 5 years the numbers of kids interested in railways has grown, theres many more than I was younger. Many have picked it up from “grandad”, its certainly not a ridiculed hobby, society, due to the internet has brought many more obscure hobbies, including railways, into main stream acceptence. Whats further, is the growing overseas Interest in UK railways, especially from Germany and Japan.. the Azumas has brought a number of Japanese enthusiasts over last year. Our steam railways attract growing numbers of overseas tourists.

I have been amazed at Poland, especially, and the growth of railways as a hobby there, in 2002 a “pkp” model was 1 Piko set of 1960’s communist double deck stock, and a BR218 in a fake PKP colour. In 2002 a railway event was a bunch of foreigners at Wolsztyn. 

Since 2010, In little over 5 -7 years, a nation of hobby shops has opened, theres 4 just in Krakow alone, a dozen commissioners, manufacturers established and just about every modern image type has been done .. just look at Youtube. Only 1 rtr pure polish steam prototype.. Brawas PT31 and its rare as rocking horse as they only made 100 of them made, its clear where manufacturers see the demand and its not connecting rods. Indeed most enthusiasts there I come across are my age group, and not too dissimilar in Germany. The demographic is younger.

 

Many railtours are established, via turkol, mostly without steam, including all manner of obscure Electrics, units and diesels, and two preserved lines are soon to emerge.

 

in short the hobby has become acceptable In many countries, and on a growth curve in Europe, US and increasingly wider, due to the internet. I do feel the UK is considerably behind the curve when it comes to recognising the newer potential, which is due to the previous generation enjoying past glories of a much larger hobby and dominating the market. A worst case scenario is an implosion by that generation leaving a vacuum, and Just  like Cricket &  Football we risk becoming very bad at it compared to other countries... the risk is Chinese factories producing fake or inaccurate liveries/models from toolings made by failed British companies with the expert knowledge lost... in short going to what other countries used to have to put up with from our toolings.

 

I’d say from experience I grew up in the bleakest time of the hobby, the 70’s/80’s, but the wave of “cool” started to change in the early 1990’s.. Lima made a great contribution to the hobby, as did BR opendays, sectorisation. But I think the current time of 2017-2022 and the true end of BR era rolling stock, by c2030 (together with potential events like Shildon 200, Rocket 200, Big4 100, BR 75 etc ) could make a big mark on the current generation, not to mention HS2, Crossrail.
There is a more tolerant media interest... the days of Media inciting hatred of minority hobbies has gone.

 

Hornby's recognised this and is harvesting it, but is still in retrospect rather than forsight. The 100 years range of 2020 features nothing without a chimney. Really the 47 (Mammoth), HST, class 110 did nothing for Hornby , i’d certainly have picked a class 50 over a thrice baked 35028 for 2000 era ?  The oppourtunity to introduce a new modern tooling for the 2020‘s was missed. The video, albeit well made, showing a “lifetimes hobby” shows no future either, it features one mans journey but missed the opportunity to introduce a new generation at the end. If I were a potential investor in Hornby my eyebrows would raise a little at that insight at a future vision that would seem to focus on a single age group thats declining (Kodak ?).
 

The future for the hobby is currently in the hands of newer manufacturers. That may also be the hobbies saviour for a replacement generation, as a modern hobby will be in a form i’m not sure the older manufactuers are adaptable to, but isnt that what life is meant to be about, renewal ? To me the hobby has a good future, not as good as the 1960’s generation, definitely a better one than the 1970’s/80’s, with potential to feed off the 1990’s and growth by recognising the 2010-20’s.

Edited August 22, 2020 by adb968008

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

2. Yes, we can, but general attitudes to railways seem to be less than benign these days.

 

The few in the media after headlines don't represent the masses, most of whom no longer read/watch the mass media.

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

4. Yes, it will but the birth rate c.1975 (and since) has usually been significantly lower than it was in the "baby boom" years, so there are rather fewer 45 year-olds to draw that share from now than there were when I was 45.

 

If only there was some other way to increase the population, one in which the UK seems to have been very successful given the fact that the population seems to continue increasing each year...

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Result: Part of that change is likely to be fewer recruits than "leavers" (to put it euphemistically) over the next 20 years or so. 

 

Per above, only if this pandemic or another one kills off a substantial portion of the younger population.

 

And given western economies are built on population growth, if the population actually does start decreasing then there will likely be other problems to worry about.

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Declining occupational pensions for those in the private sector that will become general over time.

 

Unless people start retiring and collecting pensions at 45 this isn't as big a deal - a lot of the people 65+ have already made their investment in the hobby and no longer need to purchase large quantities of items (yes, there are exceptions).

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

• The increasing age of first-time homebuyers and the decreasing numbers who are able to buy at all. A mortgage comes to an end, and what I used to spend on mine finances my leisure interests; rent never
• goes away.

 

Yet strangely somehow those people renting still mange to have kids (expensive), and thus still have the finances to have a hobby once the kids grow up.

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

• High rates of marriage breakdown, particularly among those of an age to be anticipating retirement and looking around for activities to pursue when it comes. 

 

Given this has been around for 30+ years (I can remember the doom and gloom when governments started making divorce easier), we would already be seeing the effect.

 

 

[PatB]

Here's another point that has only been touched on peripherally. How bad would it be if the hobby did shrink? Yes, I get it that r-t-r trade support would drop off, but, as has been noted, with TT, 0 gauge, it wasn't fatal. Besides, all that high quality, modern equipment that's been flying off the shelves for the last 10-15 years is going to take a while to wash through the 2nd hand market, once the estates of its first owners start disposing of it. Sure, some will end up in the bin, but I think the days of the uninformed spouse/kids not recognising a collection as a significant asset is largely over. 

 

But I digress a little. In another field, about which I'm passionate, or was when I had the energy, I used to believe that salvation lay in numbers. If only more people participated, all would be rainbows and unicorns. Then, independent of my efforts, numbers did boom.  Unfortunately, none of these new participants wanted to enjoy the activity in a way of which I approved. Oh dear. Now I'm a grumpy old git, hoping they'll all go away some time soon ;-). 

 

My conclusion? That many (I'm not so conceited as to believe I'm unique) may express a desire to see more newcomers, but what they really want is to see more clones of themselves, because everyone else is doing it wrong. And yes, RMWeb can be guilty of this too. Many threads started by relative newcomers, planning an 8x4 roundy for the kids, see, amongst the excellent and generously given help and support, someone wander in from a more serious area and do a fly-by comment about the toylike nature of their trackplan or suchlike.

[Dunsignalling]

Just a few points.

 

First; on the divorce thing, it's reckoned that financially, it takes around twenty years for most to regain their former level of prosperity after one. That's getting back to where you were, not where you would have been had it not happened. That's not good if it occurs when you are 50+ unless you are so minted that losing half of everything is an irritation rather than a disaster. For anybody else, hobbies, and retirement itself suddenly retreat over the horizon.

 

Second; on the demographics. I go (wrong tense at present) to a lot of shows (20-25 per year on average). I'm 69 and, looking around. I reckon I still fall inside the younger third of those attending. Either that, or this hobby really makes you look old before your time.

 

Third: On the changing housing market. Yes, those who have kids do stop spending on them eventually, but those who don't become homeowners will still be shelling out (at today's prices) at least £500 "a calendar month" in rent after they retire. That becomes a much bigger slice when ones income both shrinks and becomes inelastic.    

 

I'll leave it there, as this thread has reached the point where the insertion of a bit of realism is regarded as doom-mongering. As it did last year and the year before, and the year before that....

 

John   

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

Maybe part of the problem is the trainset needs a rethink.

Trains dont carry milk churns, pigs, sheep etc any more.
They are no longer relevent.

 

Kids are introduced to railways often via a preserved railway.

So perhaps the trainset should be more aligned to them ?

Bluebell Railway, SVR, GCR, MHR, SRPS themed trainsets, even stretch it to West Highland and Cumbrian Mountain Express sets.

 

be sure to add accurate locos, liveries and a station building or structure from those lines.

 

J94, Jinty, Pannier, Terrier, Beattie, Std 2-6-4T, Black 5, class 03, 08, 20, 25 all the little locos are already tooled ready to go, as is the ubiquitous mk1... just add a few land mark preserved railway structures.  Add in  the lines timetable, membership details and give the line nationwide promotion via the set.

 

Now EFE has broken the duck with a motorised tube train, perhaps Hornby should consider doing the same to Corgi trams, starting with Blackpool.

same toolings, just give it year 2020 era relevence & packaging.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Third: On the changing housing market. Yes, those who have kids do stop spending on them eventually, but those who don't become homeowners will still be shelling out (at today's prices) at least £500 "a calendar month" in rent after they retire. That becomes a much bigger slice when ones income both shrinks and becomes inelastic.

 

I think the concept of a ‘job for life’ followed by early retirement is also becoming less common. I am quite unlikely to achieve this for reasons specific to the sector I want to work in, but it is apparently an issue more generally. Financial security and knowing that you won’t have to move house in the near future (i.e. space and practical considerations) are conducive to railway modelling. I can see myself keeping my model-making going, but spending more or less time on it depending on circumstances.

 

13 hours ago, PatB said:

My conclusion? That many (I'm not so conceited as to believe I'm unique) may express a desire to see more newcomers, but what they really want is to see more clones of themselves, because everyone else is doing it wrong.

 

This is also a good point, and comes back to this thread’s initial focus on RTR and train sets. You could argue that people want more newcomers to do railway modelling in this way because it would support the RTR market which they rely on for their own modelling, but I don’t think that we need to be that cynical. I suppose it’s also natural for people to want the hobby they do to carry on in the way that they enjoy.

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Maybe part of the problem is the trainset needs a rethink.

Trains dont carry milk churns, pigs, sheep etc any more.
They are no longer relevent.

 

Kids are introduced to railways often via a preserved railway.

So perhaps the trainset should be more aligned to them ?

Bluebell Railway, SVR, GCR, MHR, SRPS themed trainsets, even stretch it to West Highland and Cumbrian Mountain Express sets.

 

be sure to add accurate locos, liveries and a station building or structure from those lines.

 

J94, Jinty, Pannier, Terrier, Beattie, Std 2-6-4T, Black 5, class 03, 08, 20, 25 all the little locos are already tooled ready to go, as is the ubiquitous mk1... just add a few land mark preserved railway structures.  Add in  the lines timetable, membership details and give the line nationwide promotion via the set.

 

Now EFE has broken the duck with a motorised tube train, perhaps Hornby should consider doing the same to Corgi trams, starting with Blackpool.

same toolings, just give it year 2020 era relevence & packaging.

 

 

This sounds like a great idea, but would the line-specific aspects of it make it more expensive to produce? And would the lines themselves be commissioning these to engage their visitors further and promote themselves, or would a manufacturer choose which ones to make?

[RJS1977]

I think there could be some mileage in that idea.

 

Go to a lot of standard gauge heritage railways (particularly the smaller ones), and what are you likely to see?

 

An Austerity tank or an 08 (or if you're lucky, a Pannier or a Jinty) and a few Mark 1 coaches.

 

The pannier, Jinty and 08(*) all crop up regularly in the Railroad range (but IMO should be there permanently as 'bread and butter' locos) and the ex-Dapol Austerity really ought to be there as well as it's now been in production for over 30 years. Mark 1 coaches are/have been in the Railroad range as well - not long back Hattons were selling them at £12 each so I suspect they probably don't cost more than £10 to produce.

 

Let's say Hornby were able to keep up a regular supply of those four locos in say two liveries each (pre- and post-Nationalisation for the Pannier and the Jinty, two different colours for the Austerity and BR green and blue for the 08s) - both for sale in sets and via shops/the Hornby website.

 

Recently I was given/bought for a donation a 1990s Flying Scotsman set. Inside the box were two polystyrene trays, one containing controller and track, one containing the loco and three coaches, which is a 'modular' way of packing - I presume the track/controller tray was common to a number of sets.

 

A heritage railway shop manager can then ring up Hornby and say "I'd like ten Heritage Rambler train sets."

"Certainly Sir, what would you like in them?"

"Green 08, two chocolate and cream Mark 1s, please."

Warehouse assistant packs a tray containing controller and track, two boxed Mark 1s and a boxed 08 into an outer box with a large see-through window and the words "Hornby Heritage Rambler" written on the lid, does this ten times and sends them out to the heritage railway.

 

The Heritage Railway can then slip a photo of the prototype train into the box, behind the half of the window that reveals the controller and track, along with possibly a sticker sheet with loco name and number on. (Alternatively, if Hornby are sending the sets out sealed, the heritage railway could email email these to Hornby for them to print off and insert in the box).

 

(*) Yes, I'm aware of the issue with the inside frames on the 08!

 

 

[adb968008]

The point would be to have in the set, what the public can see.

J94’s are an easy one, as they are everywhere.

preserved lines have pretty much their fleets tooled already in oo.

 

So a Bluebell theme box, with a Bluebell Terrier (Stepney being obvious) and some green maunsells, in a Bluebell Railway branded box and art work shouldnt cost much difference in price to a Harry Potter set..(Which presumably carries a licence fee).

 

Similarly a Dean Forest Set with an LMR J94 Rennes and some mk1’s, or an Isle of Wight Set with Royal Engineer. 

Buying a.n.other Jinty isnt the same as buying 47406 to a kid..

its gives people chance to buy what they see.

 

The sets themselves could be limited, to avoid becoming dated, but additionally could be promoted as a “preserved railway” range could encourage kids to expand... “Last month I went to Bluebell and”... “during the summer we went to Swanage and”...

 

One of my earliest preserved line memories was riding behind two identical numbered locos at the West Somerset 2994 and D2994 on the same day... these things kids remember, buying 07003 isnt the same thing (I had to wait 37 years to be able to buy 1 of them anyway).

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

I think there could be some mileage in that idea.

 

Go to a lot of standard gauge heritage railways (particularly the smaller ones), and what are you likely to see?

 

An Austerity tank or an 08 (or if you're lucky, a Pannier or a Jinty) and a few Mark 1 coaches.

 

The pannier, Jinty and 08(*) all crop up regularly in the Railroad range (but IMO should be there permanently as 'bread and butter' locos) and the ex-Dapol Austerity really ought to be there as well as it's now been in production for over 30 years. Mark 1 coaches are/have been in the Railroad range as well - not long back Hattons were selling them at £12 each so I suspect they probably don't cost more than £10 to produce.

 

Let's say Hornby were able to keep up a regular supply of those four locos in say two liveries each (pre- and post-Nationalisation for the Pannier and the Jinty, two different colours for the Austerity and BR green and blue for the 08s) - both for sale in sets and via shops/the Hornby website.

 

Recently I was given/bought for a donation a 1990s Flying Scotsman set. Inside the box were two polystyrene trays, one containing controller and track, one containing the loco and three coaches, which is a 'modular' way of packing - I presume the track/controller tray was common to a number of sets.

 

A heritage railway shop manager can then ring up Hornby and say "I'd like ten Heritage Rambler train sets."

"Certainly Sir, what would you like in them?"

"Green 08, two chocolate and cream Mark 1s, please."

Warehouse assistant packs a tray containing controller and track, two boxed Mark 1s and a boxed 08 into an outer box with a large see-through window and the words "Hornby Heritage Rambler" written on the lid, does this ten times and sends them out to the heritage railway.

 

The Heritage Railway can then slip a photo of the prototype train into the box, behind the half of the window that reveals the controller and track, along with possibly a sticker sheet with loco name and number on. (Alternatively, if Hornby are sending the sets out sealed, the heritage railway could email email these to Hornby for them to print off and insert in the box).

 

(*) Yes, I'm aware of the issue with the inside frames on the 08!

 

 

 

A good idea as it removes or reduces the need for specific packaging, while still allowing the content of the sets to be varied.

[RJS1977]

Just looking at the Hornby Railroad range as it's currently listed on their website. It's become a bit more coherent (and grown a bit) since I last looked, but it's still somewhat of a mess.

 

GWR

 

Dean Single (accepted that this is old tooling and therefore Railroad standard but there are none in preservation so no young person - or indeed anyone else - will have seen one, so an odd choice for the sole GWR loco in the range!)

 

Four wheel coach

 

ex-Triang clerestory 3rd and brake. Coherent with the Dean Single, but the same price as the 4-wheelers, for a coach that's twice as long!

 

Brake 3rd/Composite/restaurant car. Nothing to go with these and they are priced more than the much more recent and better quality Mark 1s!

 

LMS 

 

4P 4-4-0

 

4 -wheel coaches (really too small to run behind 4P)

 

LMS Brake 3rd/comp/restaurant car  - as with the GWR coaches, priced more than the newer Mark 1s.

 

Coronation blue/silver coach set, but nothing to pull them. And again, if there was, there isn't a blue Coronation preserved - would be better as a maroon set with 6229.

 

Set of three 'LMS' box vans but again would be odd behind a 4P.

 

LNER

 

Footballer

 

Mallard

 

Flying Scotsman

 

P2 (none preserved - yet - so not really relevant for 

 

J83 

 

'Teak' brake 3rd, composite and restaurant car, priced as per LMS and GWR coaches

 

'Teak' generic 4 wheel coach

 

'NE' box van

 

SR

 

Nothing, nada, zilch, zero (except for an olive green 4 wheel coach)

 

 

(More than one railway)

 

Associated PO wagons

 

Pullman coaches (again, more than the Mark 1s)

 

 

 

BR pre-1968

 

Crosti 9F (I'm sure it's a nice model - but only 6? built and nobody under 50 will have seen one!)

 

Tornado (though really of course a post-privatisation model). Slightly unfortunate RRP of £100.99 - I'm sure dropping the price by £1 would have made it more attractive!

 

D49

 

Black 5

 

King Arthur

 

Bagnall 0-4-0 diesel in BR Green

 

Mk1s in choc/cream, crimson/cream or maroon - but brake coaches only listed in maroon!

 

BR standard brake van, but no appropriate BR period wagons.

 

Breakdown crane

 

BR 1968-94

 

HST power cars (original livery). Not the best choice of colour scheme given that young people will only at best have seen ONE original liveried power car! Plenty of potential here for alternative liveries/ special editions. No appropriate coaches.

 

Class 90 (Inter city executive). Again, no appropriate matching coaches. Would perhaps have been better released in Railfreight or Freightliner colours.

 

Mark 2 coach in blue grey.

 

Car transporter wagon with Ford Capris (so pre 1986)

 

Bogie container wagon

 

Post privatisation

 

GBRf Class 20 and 73

 

Class 47s in various colours including Royal Train

 

NR Class 37

 

Class 59s in a couple of different colour schemes. Note that despite being based on the old Lima tooling, these cost considerably more than the new Class 66s which are not listed on the Railroad website!

 

Apart from the aforementioned container wagon - nothing for any of these locos to pull!

 

Of course, Tornado really belongs to this period (with an appropriate rake of Mark 1s) rather than pre-1968!

 

Industrial

 

Several liveries of 'King George' tank loco

 

'Smokey Joe'

 

Holden tank in fictional blue livery

 

 

 

So whilst the range appears to be more coherent than last time I looked, and there is a welcome increase in current/recent prototypes there are still some big gaps in it (particularly in relation to pre-War GWR and Southern, modern wagons and multiple units), and inconsistencies in pricing (note I am not saying Hornby should put some of their prices up!).

 

As well as the 66s not being listed under RailRoad, I think it would be appropriate for the long-in-the tooth plastic buildings that were in the range when I was a boy also to be marketed under the Railroad banner.

[DK123GWR]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

The pannier, Jinty and 08(*) all crop up regularly in the Railroad range (but IMO should be there permanently as 'bread and butter' locos)

As well as liking the idea of the heritage railway sets, I think this is a good idea. It would give people a number of options for a starter loco using a chassis which has stood the test of time (no traction tyres spinning in mid air while the loco slides around) but is larger than the 0-4-0 (which also means more reliable pickup due to the longer wheelbase). I have an 08 and a pannier and while their not the most accurate models I really don't care. They both compensate for their lack of detail by running smoothly and reliably on trackwork which, if I'm being honest, is mediocre at best and uses track which in some cases could date back to the 1980s. In the interest of balance, Thomas (who likely took much more abuse from a seven year old version of me than the class 08) has had his gears worn down completely. The motor turns freely but has no way of connecting to the rails.

  

11 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Crosti 9F (I'm sure it's a nice model - but only 6? built and nobody under 50 will have seen one!)

Any 9F is impressive for its sheer size of course.

Edited August 22, 2020 by DK123GWR

[PatB]

I like the idea of a basic "heritage" set, tailored to specific lines, a great deal, especially as, for many, it would require little or no new tooling. Certainly not the really expensive bits. The only caveat I'd raise is the question of whether a "Austerity and Mk1" type operation would be able to afford even the relatively modest upfront costs for a short run of sets. 

[RJS1977]

12 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

As well as liking the idea of the heritage railway sets, I think this is a good idea. It would give people a number of options for a starter loco using a chassis which has stood the test of time (no traction tyres spinning in mid air while the loco slides around) but is larger than the 0-4-0 (which also means more reliable pickup due to the longer wheelbase). I have an 08 and a pannier and while their not the most accurate models I really don't care. They both compensate for their lack of detail by running smoothly and reliably on trackwork which, if I'm being honest, is mediocre at best and uses track which in some cases could date back to the 1980s. In the interest of balance, Thomas (who likely took much more abuse from a seven year old version of me than the class 08) has had his gears worn down completely. The motor turns freely but has no way of connecting to the rails.

 

Whilst that wasn't really where I was coming from, those are valid points.

 

It's my view that Railroad should provide appropriate locos and stock for someone to be able to put together a branch local, a goods train, and a passenger express for each of the Big Four, BR pre and post 68. and post privatisation.

 

Within that, there is still space for Hornby to vary the range from year to year, for example by substituting Kings for Castles, Duchesses for Princesses or Bulleids for Arthurs.

[RJS1977]

4 minutes ago, PatB said:

I like the idea of a basic "heritage" set, tailored to specific lines, a great deal, especially as, for many, it would require little or no new tooling. Certainly not the really expensive bits. The only caveat I'd raise is the question of whether a "Austerity and Mk1" type operation would be able to afford even the relatively modest upfront costs for a short run of sets. 

 

The idea would be that Hornby would package the sets on demand out of existing stock (as I would imagine all the elements on their own to be persistent sellers), with a 'bundle' discount. Consequently there would be no minimum order size.

 

I'd estimate the trade cost for a set with an 08, Jinty or Pannier to be not much more than £60 (Austerity possibly more), with a possible RRP of £80-£100 (bear in mind heritage railway shops often have lower overheads than mainstream model shops owing to owning their premises and having volunteer staff).

 

At that, I for one would happily underwrite a few sets for my local line, with more to come if they sold well.

 

And I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the means of lines like the Gwili, Embsay, Isle of Wight or Lakeside and Haverthwaite.

[DK123GWR]

4 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

It's my view that Railroad should provide appropriate locos and stock for someone to be able to put together a branch local, a goods train, and a passenger express for each of the Big Four, BR pre and post 68. and post privatisation.

I would suggest that there should be at least two sets of passenger trains at a time covering different areas of the country. Even then, they should be periodically rotated so that you cover for instance: GWR HST and Sprinter; TfW Sprinter; Northern Pacer or Sprinter; Scotrail HST and Sprinter; East Midlands Railway HST and Sprinter over the course of a few years. I have tried to stick to current and former Railroad models for this list, but as we discussed a few pages back it might be a good idea for Hornby to produce a low-spec AT300 model to replace the HST as they are getting everywhere (at that point some of the TOCs mentioned would have to change of course - TPE and LNER AT300s could replace EMR HSTs and supplement the Northern Trains model).

[RJS1977]

2 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

I would suggest that there should be at least two sets of passenger trains at a time covering different areas of the country. Even then, they should be periodically rotated so that you cover for instance: GWR HST and Sprinter; TfW Sprinter; Northern Pacer or Sprinter; Scotrail HST and Sprinter; East Midlands Railway HST and Sprinter over the course of a few years. I have tried to stick to current and former Railroad models for this list, but as we discussed a few pages back it might be a good idea for Hornby to produce a low-spec AT300 model to replace the HST as they are getting everywhere (at that point some of the TOCs mentioned would have to change of course - TPE and LNER AT300s could replace EMR HSTs and supplement the Northern Trains model).

 

Yes, agreed - in some respects there is more geographical variation now than there was in Big Four days, although of course GBRf, Freightliner and DBS can be seen everywhere!

[RichardT]

There's a lot of imaginative ideas here.  One thing keeps nagging at me re younger people's interests:

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

and nobody under 50 will have seen one!

No-one has ever seen a T Rex in real life, or an inter-stellar battle cruiser.  Yet we aren't having debates about how that's a problem for getting kids interested in them.  So I still can't help feel that the lack of tailored cheap train sets isn't really the issue.  And Hornby, in over 50 years of railway preservation, have never adopted the trading method outlined above, for some reason.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Just looking at the Hornby Railroad range as it's currently listed on their website. It's become a bit more coherent (and grown a bit) since I last looked, but it's still somewhat of a mess.

 

GWR

 

Dean Single (accepted that this is old tooling and therefore Railroad standard but there are none in preservation so no young person - or indeed anyone else - will have seen one, so an odd choice for the sole GWR loco in the range!)

 

 

 

*cough*

 

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, RichardT said:

There's a lot of imaginative ideas here.  One thing keeps nagging at me re younger people's interests:

No-one has ever seen a T Rex in real life, or an inter-stellar battle cruiser.  Yet we aren't having debates about how that's a problem for getting kids interested in them.  So I still can't help feel that the lack of tailored cheap train sets isn't really the issue.  And Hornby, in over 50 years of railway preservation, have never adopted the trading method outlined above, for some reason.

But plenty of movies/TV shows have had dinosaurs & space travel in the same show! Sad fact is that many people believe that stone age man & dinosaurs mixed.

Given that, it's no wonder so many conspiracy theories are alive and well.

 

On that basis, it doesn't matter what is included in a train set, as long as it is cheap. Which is where the OP came in.

[PatB]

There was mention upthread of the price of the Hornby 4 wheel coach. This is something that never ceases to amaze me, given that it is a) possibly the worst r-t-r model in existence, and b) made from tooling that must have paid for itself by about 1985.

 

On a related note, have Hattons had a purge of preowned Hornby 0-4-0s and 4w coaches? They always seemed to have scads of them, but when I looked the other day they seemed to have all disappeared. 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

On that basis, it doesn't matter what is included in a train set, as long as it is cheap. Which is where the OP came in.

 

I’m tempted to say that some kids, especially if they are older and more into model railways, will be more discerning. But on the other hand, if Hornby think it’s worthwhile to churn out 0-4-0s in fictitious liveries (the usual suspects with common chassis: Caley Pug, class 06, Dowlais D class, Holden etc) then they must be selling. As I mentioned earlier, whether they are selling to people who will later want to get into railway modelling more and by add-on items is another matter. But they are cheap, and the fact that they are being sold individually as well suggests that they have some appeal beyond the train set market. Before I got into 009 I was considering modelling an 00 standard gauge light railway using or adapting these locos.

Edited August 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller