Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[Zomboid]

10 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

It's my view that Railroad should provide appropriate locos and stock for someone to be able to put together a branch local, a goods train, and a passenger express for each of the Big Four, BR pre and post 68. and post privatisation

Someone (CJF I think, but could have been someone else) said that to build a credible (post grouping) steam era model railway you need 3 types of loco. An 0-6-0T, an 0-6-0 tender engine and a 4-6-0. Which I think would pretty much cover what you've said. Obviously there's some variance depending on what the model is of, and I think I'd have a 2-6-0 as that's a bit more mixed traffic-y than an 0-6-0, but you could run whatever train you want with that lot.

 

Post sprinterisation things get a bit harder, but up to then you wouldn't go far wrong with a diesel shunter, a 37 and a 47 for modelling most of the loco hauled diesel era.

[fezza]

Today a good starter contemporary layout would be a 153, 37 and 66.  The problem is that fragmentation of the railways means what is "typical" varies a lot by region and there are many different TOCs and liveries. In the mid eighties a blue 101, 37 and 47 could represent much of the country so it was easy for manufacturers. 

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

*cough*

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

I wondered who'd be the first to spot that.... ;-)

 

However it's an unpowered replica that now sits (minus tender) in the middle of a shopping centre and has never run under its own steam.

 

And it's still an outlier that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the range.

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

 

I wondered who'd be the first to spot that.... ;-)

 

However it's an unpowered replica that now sits (minus tender) in the middle of a shopping centre and has never run under its own steam.

 

And it's still an outlier that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the range.

 

Apparently, the driving wheels aren’t real either. They are only the bottom halves and don’t quite touch the rails.

 

However, making a model of something like that (a prototype which is noticeably older than the postwar BR locos often seen on heritage lines) gives people a way into historical railway modelling.

Edited August 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, PatB said:

There was mention upthread of the price of the Hornby 4 wheel coach. This is something that never ceases to amaze me, given that it is a) possibly the worst r-t-r model in existence, and b) made from tooling that must have paid for itself by about 1985.

 

On a related note, have Hattons had a purge of preowned Hornby 0-4-0s and 4w coaches? They always seemed to have scads of them, but when I looked the other day they seemed to have all disappeared. 

 

What's wrong with it?

 

More accurate than the generic Hattons carriages everyone is raving about. At least the Hornby 4 wheel carriages existed....

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

 

 

I wondered who'd be the first to spot that.... ;-)

 

However it's an unpowered replica that now sits (minus tender) in the middle of a shopping centre and has never run under its own steam.

 

And it's still an outlier that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the range.

 

Most of the locomotives in the NRM don't run either and haven't for well over sixty years. In some cases close to eighty.

 

Does that mean any models of them are also invalid?

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, PatB said:

There was mention upthread of the price of the Hornby 4 wheel coach. This is something that never ceases to amaze me, given that it is a) possibly the worst r-t-r model in existence, and b) made from tooling that must have paid for itself by about 1985.

 

On a related note, have Hattons had a purge of preowned Hornby 0-4-0s and 4w coaches? They always seemed to have scads of them, but when I looked the other day they seemed to have all disappeared. 

Got to create a market for their new 'Genesis' version.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=594

 

Perhaps now Hornby will do something with their versions. Must have been paid off long before 1985. I think the S&DJR livery was first in 1977.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Apparently, the driving wheels aren’t real either. They are only the bottom halves and don’t quite touch the rails.

 

Just like the Tri-ang and Airfix versions of the Class 31's then!

[Steamport Southport]

I know people on here dismiss the four wheel carriage and the 0-4-0Ts.

 

But people actually buy them.

 

Loads of Lima and old Hornby diesels (25/29/37/etc) appeared the other day. Had a look later. Gone!

 

 

 

Jason

[RJS1977]

36 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Most of the locomotives in the NRM don't run either and haven't for well over sixty years. In some cases close to eighty.

 

Does that mean any models of them are also invalid?

 

 

 

Jason

 

I didn't say it shouldn't be in the Railroad range - only that as the only GWR loco it struck me as a bit of an odd choice.

 

The locos in the NRM are at least often duplicated by working classmates elsewhere (one of the reasons the NRM hasn't steamed them) and the NRM shop is more likely to be visited by railway enthusiasts than a gift shop in what used to be Windsor station.

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I didn't say it shouldn't be in the Railroad range - only that as the only GWR loco it struck me as a bit of an odd choice.

 

The locos in the NRM are at least often duplicated by working classmates elsewhere (one of the reasons the NRM hasn't steamed them) and the NRM shop is more likely to be visited by railway enthusiasts than a gift shop in what used to be Windsor station.

I reckon it was in response to the Stirling Single - Hornby had something in their back catalogue that they could churn out cheaply, along with the older Clerestory coaches.

 

That way grandchild can play with a model similar to the Single with some coaches to haul without risking grandad's expensive NRM collectible.

 

Throw in the people who collect anything Hornby, people with a penchant for Triang style models and anyone who wants to run a quirky engine on their layout and you have a winner.

[Pandora]

I think a key indicator for the future numbers in railway modelling  is the number of railway enthusiasts  present and kicking today sorted or grouped by age,  such 10 to 15 years  16 to 21 years, 22 to 27 etc.

The modern prototype railway scene is too homogenous (ie boring) for my taste,  there was far more to see , witness, hold  interest 10/20/30/40/50  years back,  In many cases a  deep interest in the prototype  is a precursor to acquiring models  I would like to see a compariosn of each age group between today and each decade back to the 1960s. I would say there is a small fraction of millenials interested in railways compared to the numbers for generation X and the hordes of post - WW2 generation boomers.

I assume that companies such as Hornby and Bachmann possess  such demographic data, it would  be neglicting the interests of  their shareholders if they do not. 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Pandora

[kevinlms]

52 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I know people on here dismiss the four wheel carriage and the 0-4-0Ts.

 

But people actually buy them.

 

 

 

Jason

No doubt they do. Open a model railway magazine and have a look through to find them. Especially if an article is 7mm NG or a light railway.

[RJS1977]

58 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I know people on here dismiss the four wheel carriage and the 0-4-0Ts.

 

But people actually buy them.

 

Loads of Lima and old Hornby diesels (25/29/37/etc) appeared the other day. Had a look later. Gone!

 

 

 

Jason

 

Scalextric mechanism aside, the Holden tank and pug are quite well-proportioned models of the real thing (I'm not so well up on the other industrial tank, it was a much later addition to the range).

 

The 4-wheel coaches are a different story, but they do look quite nice on their own, provided no better scaled coaches are coupled up to them!

[RJS1977]

50 minutes ago, Pandora said:

I think a key indicator for the future numbers in railway modelling  is the number of railway enthusiasts  present and kicking today sorted or grouped by age,  such 10 to 15 years  16 to 21 years, 22 to 27 etc.

The modern prototype railway scene is too homogenous (ie boring) for my taste,  there was far more to see , witness, hold  interest 10/20/30/40/50  years back,  In many cases a  deep interest in the prototype  is a precursor to acquiring models  I would like to see a compariosn of each age group between today and each decade back to the 1960s. I would say there is a small fraction of millenials interested in railways compared to the numbers for generation X and the hordes of post - WW2 generation boomers.

I assume that companies such as Hornby and Bachmann possess  such demographic data, it would  be neglicting the interests of  their shareholders if they do not. 

 

 

Although to a degree, that can end up being a circular argument.

 

Lack of suitable models to expand the set once Smokey Joe's gone round a few times means lack of stimulation for a railway interest (I found when I was growing up that interest in modelling led me to observe the prototype more closely, and observation of the prototype encouraged me in my modelling).

 

If Hornby/Bachmann aren't making an appropriate range for older children/teenagers, older children/teenagers/their parents can't buy them, because there's nothing to buy!

[PatB]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

What's wrong with it?

 

More accurate than the generic Hattons carriages everyone is raving about. At least the Hornby 4 wheel carriages existed....

 

 

 

Jason

I think we've been here before, and the only resemblances I can see between the Hornby coach and the S&D vehicle it is allegedly based on are 4 wheels, 3 compartments and it's been blue at times. I'm really not sure if that truly qualifies as it having a prototype,' cos on that basis, the Little Tykes pedal car my daughter enjoyed so much was an acceptable model of a Ferrari Dino. 

[PatB]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

No doubt they do. Open a model railway magazine and have a look through to find them. Especially if an article is 7mm NG or a light railway.

Indeed. My own interest in them is as chassis donors for my current narrow gauge obsession. 

[1E BoY]

This is what a Playcraft 0-4-0T engine looked like in 1963. The equivalent of £1.75p from Woolworth's!

 

 

 

.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

I am bemused by this thread, what is wrong with second hand stuff ?

 

I got into the hobby by being given almost exclusively second hand stuff from the age of three starting with a Hornby Dublo Caledonian Set 2023 that had previously belonged to my cousin. My first new locomotive was for Christmas 1974, it was a Hornby Triang R751 D6830 which was, despite sporting class 31 bogies (GRRR !), the nearest thing to a class 40 that was then available. Even at the age of four I knew that I wanted a class 40 with thirteen Mk1's that I could exchange for an electric locomotive at Preston. That became the OO gauge reality with a second hand Trix AL1 a couple of years later, I would have preferred a class 86 but that was seven years into the future.

 

Small 0-4-0 tank engines with bright green Prime Pork vans were of no interest to me, I wanted Freightliners, BOC Oxygen tankers, 21 ton hopper wagons, blue and grey coaches and BRCW DMU's.

 

I still buy second hand stuff, mainly from eBay, although I usually either repaint or kit bash it into something I want. Eight out of nine wrecked Airfix Mk2d's are currently being rejuvenated as a WCML Pullman set, even if the job were to go horribly wrong, which it won't, it will only stand me £15.00 including postage. What better way for a beginner to learn than chopping up and repainting stuff that can't really be made much worse ? Dapol still manufacture the range of wagons first produced by Airfix, they even do self assembly coaches which are even easier.

 

Gibbo.

[DK123GWR]

5 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Folks,

 

I am bemused by this thread, what is wrong with second hand stuff ?

 

I got into the hobby by being given almost exclusively second hand stuff from the age of three starting with a Hornby Dublo Caledonian Set 2023 that had previously belonged to my cousin. My first new locomotive was for Christmas 1974, it was a Hornby Triang R751 D6830 which was, despite sporting class 31 bogies (GRRR !), the nearest thing to a class 40 that was then available. Even at the age of four I knew that I wanted a class 40 with thirteen Mk1's that I could exchange for an electric locomotive at Preston. That became the OO gauge reality with a second hand Trix AL1 a couple of years later, I would have preferred a class 86 but that was seven years into the future.

 

Small 0-4-0 tank engines with bright green Prime Pork vans were of no interest to me, I wanted Freightliners, BOC Oxygen tankers, 21 ton hopper wagons, blue and grey coaches and BRCW DMU's.

 

I still buy second hand stuff, mainly from eBay, although I usually either repaint or kit bash it into something I want. Eight out of nine wrecked Airfix Mk2d's are currently being rejuvenated as a WCML Pullman set, even if the job were to go horribly wrong, which it won't, it will only stand me £15.00 including postage. What better way for a beginner to learn than chopping up and repainting stuff that can't really be made much worse ? Dapol still manufacture the range of wagons first produced by Airfix, they even do self assembly coaches which are even easier.

 

Gibbo.

I agree with you to an extent. I try to keep an eye on both ebay and Hattons if possible. The trouble is that for the first few locomotives you want to know that it will work straight away and for a long time. An absolute beginner may struggle to navigate the various models that have been produced of locomotive X and which ones have a cripping flaw which stops them from running. Of course, modern locomotives aren't immune to such flaws either (but they really should be).

[009 micro modeller]

12 minutes ago, 1E BoY said:

This is what a Playcraft 0-4-0T engine looked like in 1963. The equivalent of £1.75p from Woolworth's!

 

 

 

.

 

Actually, these kinds of later plastic clockwork 00 locos are still very cheap secondhand. Although not usually quite as cheap as the similar-in-concept 0-4-0 Hornby ones (mostly produced in the 70s or later I think, see here (red loco): https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/forum/can-you-help-id-this-80s-horby-clockwork-train-set/?p=1), which a few years ago seemed to be virtually worthless, even for very good but unboxed examples, but have recently increased in cost slightly.

 

The issue with these is that they are very toylike and have no reverse gear, as they date from a more recent time when serious model trains were mostly electric - the clockwork drive seems to be just an alternative to or earlier form of the cheap battery-powered trains discussed earlier.

[009 micro modeller]

26 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

I agree with you to an extent. I try to keep an eye on both ebay and Hattons if possible. The trouble is that for the first few locomotives you want to know that it will work straight away and for a long time. An absolute beginner may struggle to navigate the various models that have been produced of locomotive X and which ones have a cripping flaw which stops them from running. Of course, modern locomotives aren't immune to such flaws either (but they really should be).

 

I think this is the main issue but can it be solved by having one good, new but reasonably cheap loco and some others that would be expensive but are cheap because they are secondhand?

 

I remember starting out and briefly getting some 00 stuff before focusing on 009. Out of two Hornby 0-4-0s (one new, one used) the used one didn’t run much worse than the new one.

 

Then, when I got going properly in 009 my first locos were (brackets are to help generalise this for other scales):

 

- an Eggerbahn 0-4-0T (i.e. fairly/very old secondhand RTR).

- a returned, tested and resold Farish N gauge loco which I fitted with a bigger cab (discounted/secondhand and modified RTR).

- a kitbashed loco on a Kato chassis (homemade loco on a new but cheap RTR chassis).

 

Only the third loco doesn’t have an obvious equivalent in standard gauge 00 and other scales, although as an aside I am surprised that the idea of selling separate, cheap chassis for kit and scratch builders doesn’t seem to exist that much outside of Japanese N gauge manufacturers. But none of the locos mentioned above is new, full price and fully RTR.

Edited August 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Gibbo675]

8 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

I agree with you to an extent. I try to keep an eye on both ebay and Hattons if possible. The trouble is that for the first few locomotives you want to know that it will work straight away and for a long time. An absolute beginner may struggle to navigate the various models that have been produced of locomotive X and which ones have a cripping flaw which stops them from running. Of course, modern locomotives aren't immune to such flaws either (but they really should be).

Hi DK,

 

You are quite right about the reliability of locomotives and the guarantee that comes with them from new, the disappointment of a demic is not good, however coaches and wagons are seriously cheap.

 

I've just had a look at the buy it now prices for coaches and wagons, including postage they are from:

•  Mk1's  £12.00
• Mk2's £9.89
• GWR £11.89
• LMS £11.09
• Oil Tank £6.50
• Freightliner flat £19.99
• Hopper wagon £7.99

There is every chance that auctions and job-lots will yield even better bargains for beginners to practice on !

 

Gibbo.

[1E BoY]

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Actually, these kinds of later plastic clockwork 00 locos are still very cheap secondhand. Although not usually quite as cheap as the similar-in-concept 0-4-0 Hornby ones (mostly produced in the 70s or later I think, see here (red loco): https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/forum/can-you-help-id-this-80s-horby-clockwork-train-set/?p=1), which a few years ago seemed to be virtually worthless, even for very good but unboxed examples, but have recently increased in cost slightly.

 

The issue with these is that they are very toylike and have no reverse gear, as they date from a more recent time when serious model trains were mostly electric - the clockwork drive seems to be just an alternative to or earlier form of the cheap battery-powered trains discussed earlier.

 

This one, despite the hole for the lever in the top of the cab is definitely electric. The clockwork ones cost 7/6d (35p in todays currency). The very large motor is visible in the cab. It runs well but you need to shut of power to allow it to coast to a stop.

 

These were almost indestuctable. You can even push them along the track without fear of any damage - so ideal for the toy market in their day. This version also had the Hornby Dublo - PECO type coupling.

Edited August 23, 2020 by 1E BoY
Grammar

[RJS1977]

46 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

I agree with you to an extent. I try to keep an eye on both ebay and Hattons if possible. The trouble is that for the first few locomotives you want to know that it will work straight away and for a long time. An absolute beginner may struggle to navigate the various models that have been produced of locomotive X and which ones have a cripping flaw which stops them from running. Of course, modern locomotives aren't immune to such flaws either (but they really should be).

 

The other problem with second-hand is that any models bought second hand are inevitably a few years old. So anyone wanting to model the 'current scene' is unlikely to find what they want on the secondhand market.

 

 

Also the combination of limited production runs and recent price increases can mean that someone waiting after a new model is released, for it to turn up on the secondhand market, finds that the secondhand example costs more than it would have cost to buy a new one when it came out!