Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Markin's "My World" may be a popular and extensive system - BUT it is incompatible with the main HO Markin range.

 

My-World will run on HO track. The supplied plastic stuff even has fake Marklin stud contacts moulded into the sleepers. OK, it's not powered from the track, but at least you can take it to grandad's house and run on his layout, helping plant the seed you mention.

 

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

in their late 40s when the kids have grown up and you have reached the peak of your career.

 

Blimey, if I'm now on the slippery slope to my dotage, then it's time to give up all hope. As I recall, "at the peak of my career" I was between jobs. I kid myself I'm doing a bit better now...

[phil-b259]

On 19/08/2020 at 20:15, grahame said:

 

Yet an X-Box is considerably dearer than an introductory train set that includes controller, track, loco and coaches/wagons. And further wagons/coaches and track seems to be on a par with x-box games.

 

 

 

It is - but an X box (in common with its competitors) is so much more than a pure 'games console' these days.

 

Most such devices have the ability to play Ultra HD movies and come with movie / TV streaming abilities making the overall product of value to more than just a teenage gamer.

 

Furthermore as a whole generation of adults have grown up with these devices many will want to continue playing them (virtually everyone at my depot has one, if not two consoles to chose from) and thus the purchase of a Xbox or Playstation (or both) can therefore can potentially be justified as being of interest to the whole family.

 

Note:- Yes I know the same 'family interest' can be used with model trains, but of my 18 or so work colleagues (several with young children - they have bought "toy trains" brio etc for their kids) there is ZERO interest in model railways or railways in general - despite working on the thing. Going forward if any of their kids shows a liking for railway modelling they are going to be the only one in the house that does, but with games consoles or attending football matches there is family precipitation going on for the whole of their formative years.

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Blimey, if I'm now on the slippery slope to my dotage, then it's time to give up all hope. As I recall, "at the peak of my career" I was between jobs. I kid myself I'm doing a bit better now...

 

Unofficial age discrimination is a big problem these days - added to the fact that the oldest staff tend to have the best T&Cs, not just the highest pay rates. Its why there is so much distress when big employers lay off skilled workers in their 40s and 50s because employers have a tendency to take on youngsters as they can be exploited more easily (even if they do have top fork out on extra training) and thus improve the profits for shareholders.

 

I also point out that with 'final salary' pension schemes a thing of the past in the private sector, being the best paid in your late 50s / on the wind down to retirement doesn't always mean being at your best financially - you may well have to cut back in preparation for significantly lower income in retirement than used to be the case.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 10:13, Firecracker said:

...Am I worried about the future of the hobby?  No...

I think the hobby is in a better position than it’s been for years, due to the support that’s available, both information and materials.

Such a diversity of resources, better than it has ever been. If this were not the case, then I could understand some of the OP's underlying pessimism. But it is very different from recruiting a cadre of primary school kids by means of train sets. Changed world. One more hobby among a range of a great many options. One guy in our extended family lately took up flint knapping in his 70s. Is that commercially well supported? There is a broad range of charm in model railway which will continue to draw people in.

 

15 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

...if I'm now on the slippery slope to my dotage, then it's time to give up all hope. As I recall, "at the peak of my career" I was between jobs. I kid myself I'm doing a bit better now...

There are no rules, and plenty of exceptions to 'the rules' that some would propose. The best is yet to be ...

[John Harris]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Note:- Yes I know the same 'family interest' can be used with model trains, but of my 18 or so work colleagues (several with young children - they have bought "toy trains" brio etc for their kids) there is ZERO interest in model railways or railways in general - despite working on the thing. Going forward if any of their kids shows a liking for railway modelling they are going to be the only one in the house that does, but with games consoles or attending football matches there is family precipitation going on for the whole of their formative years.

 

I feel you have hit the nail on the head, the costs of model railways are a bit of a 'red herring' in this situation, the real issue is that the majority of teenagers are not just interested in railways, model or otherwise.  As others have mentioned, the costs of a model railway, compared with modern games' consoles or iPads, are not that different.

 

If I may be controversial, the whole "Thomas / Chuggington / Underground Ernie" world possibly does not help, these franchises seem to be squarely aimed at very young children, once children get to 9 or 10 they start to feel trains are for "babies" and their discarded sets are passed onto younger siblings.

 

jch

[grahame]

21 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It is - but an X box (in common with its competitors) is so much more than a pure 'games console' these days.

 

Most such devices have the ability to play Ultra HD movies and come with movie / TV streaming abilities making the overall product of value to more than just a teenage gamer.

 

Furthermore as a whole generation of adults have grown up with these devices many will want to continue playing them (virtually everyone at my depot has one, if not two consoles to chose from) and thus the purchase of a Xbox or Playstation (or both) can therefore can potentially be justified as being of interest to the whole family.

 

 

 

It's not essential to have an x-box to stream HD movies.

 

And oddly I don't know anyone with an X-bot. None of my family around the world has one, none of my dozen or so close friends do and none of the 20 or so of my regular acquaintances. And when I was working I wasn't aware of any colleagues who had them. So I guess it's not quite that universally a whole generation or family thing. I don't know of any family that has grown up with one, although no doubt there are some people who have purchased them.

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Since people have been crying doom because those in the hobby are old and dropping off the twig, and no youngsters are coming in, for well over half a century, I think there is a good chance RMweb2050 will still be having those discussions.

Agreed, but over the next two decades or so, those of us who got into the hobby in large numbers when railways (real and model) were at the height of their popularity among young people are the ones set to suffer the twig-drop. In some cases, preceded by a decline in our ability to participate.

 

It's not that newcomers aren't arriving, just that the numbers don't, and can't be expected to, match the losses. Railway modelling isn't going to become extinct but can logically be predicted to become more "niche". Whatever we might do to boost recruitment, only a fairly drastic reversal in attitudes among the "uninitiated" can create the sort of  volume necessary to maintain things as they are.

 

Railways seem to be very popular TV fodder at present, so that's not entirely out of the question. If not (or not enough), it's reasonable to anticipate that potential contributors to any such discussion on RMweb 2050 would number rather fewer than now.

 

John

Edited August 21, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

I feel you have hit the nail on the head, the costs of model railways are a bit of a 'red herring' in this situation, the real issue is that the majority of teenagers are not just interested in railways, model or otherwise.  As others have mentioned, the costs of a model railway, compared with modern games' consoles or iPads, are not that different.

 

If I may be controversial, the whole "Thomas / Chuggington / Underground Ernie" world possibly does not help, these franchises seem to be squarely aimed at very young children, once children get to 9 or 10 they start to feel trains are for "babies" and their discarded sets are passed onto younger siblings.

 

jch

 

But go to heritage railways they are full of older kids and teenagers who are interested in Harry Potter/Steam Punk/cosplay/Sci Fi.

 

Some of the more astute railways are now already on those bandwagons and have events aimed at them. NYMR, KWVR and ELR for example.

 

Unfortunately this year was a write off for such events.

 

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

It's not essential to have an x-box to stream HD movies.

 

And oddly I don't know anyone with an X-bot. None of my family around the world has one, none of my dozen or so close friends do and none of the 20 or so of my regular acquaintances. And when I was working I wasn't aware of any colleagues who had them. So I guess it's not quite that universally a whole generation or family thing. I don't know of any family that has grown up with one, although no doubt there are some people who have purchased them.

 

 

I didn't say it was - but the additional functionality is there nonetheless and can be exploited to justify the purchase to other family members who may not be gamers.

 

Also just because I have mention the X-Box console, that doesn't mean I am ONLY talking about the Microsoft gaming console. It is however representative of current gaming consoles on the market - Sonys Playstaion is actually the most popular I believe.

 

It is of course the case that games consoles are hardly a new phenomenon - the Playstation 2 has the record for the most number of machines sold - and when it was launched its other selling feature was it could double up as a DVD player thus negating the need to purchase a separate machine.

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

For some that seed may take root straight away - but what is far more likely due to the stigma surrounding the hobby is that it will germinate later on.  That could be when the person is in higher education and has a go at a small shelf type layout, in their 20s after having started their career but before having a family...

 

In contrast, I have done hardly any railway modelling since I started university, except while at home in between terms. Cost is part of this, but another part is time and the equipment needed (which I have, although I cannot transport it all to university with me). But I know there are others on RMWeb who have managed to take a layout or models with them to university and work on it there.

[kevinlms]

40 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

I feel you have hit the nail on the head, the costs of model railways are a bit of a 'red herring' in this situation, the real issue is that the majority of teenagers are not just interested in railways, model or otherwise.  As others have mentioned, the costs of a model railway, compared with modern games' consoles or iPads, are not that different.

 

If I may be controversial, the whole "Thomas / Chuggington / Underground Ernie" world possibly does not help, these franchises seem to be squarely aimed at very young children, once children get to 9 or 10 they start to feel trains are for "babies" and their discarded sets are passed onto younger siblings.

 

jch

That is also hitting the nail on the head.

 

Thomas/Chuggington/Underground Ernie ARE intended for the very young. With only the Harry Potter range for slightly older. I don't know what age group has given up on model trains, probably not that long after receiving a HP set?

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But go to heritage railways they are full of older kids and teenagers who are interested in Harry Potter/Steam Punk/cosplay/Sci Fi.

 

 

 

But whats the draw here - the railway or Harry Potter etc?

 

Its a bit like saying all the morons who go and trespass on the lineside to see 'Flying Scotsman' like railways - they don't, but they do like the idea of watching the "most famous train in the world" go past.

 

Many people go for rides on Heritage railways despite having no real interest in trains as such, because it provides a nice day out - just as they might visit a National Trust property despite having no deep interest in whoever lived there.

 

The Harry Potter tie in is useful primarily because of how J K Rowling made the Magical world look Victorian / Edwardian. Many of the costumes and 'look' of the film (plus of course the original text) are generally associated with the 18th and early 19th century. As such most Heritage railways are ideally placed to take advantage due to the 'old fashioned' / 'period' look they try and maintain.

 

Steampunk is the new Kidd on the block as far as themed events go - but again the nature of whet it is means Heritage railways can form and ideal backdrop due to their 'old fashioned' feel. How many of those attending are drawn by the railway element and how many attend so they can meat other steampunk fans, show off their customised clothing, etc.

 

Thus we should be careful in amusing that a Harry potter (or any other 'themed' product) for example will automatically led to a interest in railways (model or real).

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, John Harris said:

 

 

If I may be controversial, the whole "Thomas / Chuggington / Underground Ernie" world possibly does not help, these franchises seem to be squarely aimed at very young children, once children get to 9 or 10 they start to feel trains are for "babies" and their discarded sets are passed onto younger siblings.

 

jch

BUT, the seed will have been planted for them to become the forty-something and fifty-something returnees of the future.

 

That's where the real growth in the hobby takes place currently and it has probably been so since at least the turn of this century, when mass-market r-t-r products grew up. Possibly since the late seventies when they began to - the Mainline BR4 4-6-0 is what started to entice me back, even if it did spend its first few years on static display, along with their equally desirable Mk.1 RB. 

 

Such future recruitment may actually be MORE important than the immediate sort in the long term, and should certainly be much EASIER than trying to change teenage opinions.

 

That being so, have we perhaps been worrying about nothing, all along?

 

John  

Edited August 21, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

My-World will run on HO track.

 

Which really, is the main thing needed in terms of compatibility. Stuff like Tomica doesn’t even use a vaguely prototypical track design (although I understand one reason often cited for this is the ease with which very young children can re-rail unflanged wheels on flanged track, compared to conventional track). Some of the cheap plastic sets do have reasonable-looking track but then use an odd track gauge. An alternative is to develop a new system which serves young children, older children and adults equally well, but even then it makes sense to adopt an existing track gauge.

 

45 minutes ago, John Harris said:

If I may be controversial, the whole "Thomas / Chuggington / Underground Ernie" world possibly does not help, these franchises seem to be squarely aimed at very young children, once children get to 9 or 10 they start to feel trains are for "babies" and their discarded sets are passed onto younger siblings.

 

I agree with this to some extent - it positions railways as an interest exclusively for younger children and then peers will later assume that those still interested in railways at older ages are still interested in these kids’ series, rather than the real thing.

 

On the subject of Thomas, the original books actually contained stories based on real events or satirising aspects of British Railways, so even the books had some secondary appeal for older audiences. But I understand that the current adaptations are moving further and further away from the books (often purely because they would otherwise run out of material to adapt), while the books themselves have less relevance to today’s real railways.

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

In contrast, I have done hardly any railway modelling since I started university, except while at home in between terms. Cost is part of this, but another part is time and the equipment needed (which I have, although I cannot transport it all to university with me). But I know there are others on RMWeb who have managed to take a layout or models with them to university and work on it there.

 

I was thinking more about the social / cultural environment at Universities making it more conducive to start doing some modelling rather than an established modeller continuing their hobby.

 

As I see it the most challenging time to retain modelling interests is roughly in the 10-20 age bracket where the hobbys social status as seen by peers is 'sad' 'only for babies' 'not cool' etc. Once you escape the teenage years, and particularly in an environment when niche interests tend to be more widely practices / are looked upon more as curiosities than objects to be used against you, then the chances of a resurgence of the hobby increase

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

On the subject of Thomas, the original books actually contained stories based on real events or satirising aspects of British Railways, so even the books had some secondary appeal for older audiences. But I understand that the current adaptations are moving further and further away from the books (often purely because they would otherwise run out of material to adapt), while the books themselves have less relevance to today’s real railways.

 

The current adaptions are actually drawing on marketing surveys / sales figures which shows the average age of the audience has declined. Quite why this is so is a subtle mix of lifestyle factors - including the arrival of dedicated kids TV channels needing content for pre-school kids as well as other more sophisticated toys (e.g. games consoles, smartphone games) being marketed at 7, 8 , 9, etc year old kids displacing more traditional interests.

 

Its not thus the owners are dumbing down through choice as such - but if they continued to try and pitch TTE at the same age as the owners did in the mid 1980s then the revenues would be much reduced. As such the decision was taken to follow the way the audience figures were going (i.e. increasingly lower age groups) to maintain the profitability of the franchise.

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I was thinking more about the social / cultural environment at Universities making it more conducive to start doing some modelling rather than an established modeller continuing their hobby.

 

As I see it the most challenging time to retain modelling interests is roughly in the 10-20 age bracket where the hobbys social status as seen by peers is 'sad' 'only for babies' 'not cool' etc. Once you escape the teenage years, and particularly in an environment when niche interests tend to be more widely practices / are looked upon more as curiosities than objects to be used against you, then the chances of a resurgence of the hobby increase

 

This is true, but at university I have also taken on roles within student societies, tried new activities and started to do career-relevant volunteering, and others are doing similar things. These all take up free time.

 

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

BUT, the seed will have been planted for them to become the forty-something and fifty-something returnees of the future.

 

Will it though? Can we assume that they actually are (or might become) interested in real railways based on an early interest in Thomas etc.?

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

But whats the draw here - the railway or Harry Potter etc?

 

Its a bit like saying all the morons who go and trespass on the lineside to see 'Flying Scotsman' like railways - they don't, but they do like the idea of watching the "most famous train in the world" go past.

 

Many people go for rides on Heritage railways despite having no real interest in trains as such, because it provides a nice day out - just as they might visit a National Trust property despite having no deep interest in whoever lived there.

 

The Harry Potter tie in is useful primarily because of how J K Rowling made the Magical world look Victorian / Edwardian. Many of the costumes and 'look' of the film (plus of course the original text) are generally associated with the 18th and early 19th century. As such most Heritage railways are ideally placed to take advantage due to the 'old fashioned' / 'period' look they try and maintain.

 

Steampunk is the new Kidd on the block as far as themed events go - but again the nature of whet it is means Heritage railways can form and ideal backdrop due to their 'old fashioned' feel. How many of those attending are drawn by the railway element and how many attend so they can meat other steampunk fans, show off their customised clothing, etc.

 

Thus we should be careful in amusing that a Harry potter (or any other 'themed' product) for example will automatically led to a interest in railways (model or real).

 

Both.

 

You've got the kids from an early age with events such as  Santa, Thomas, Peppa Pig, Postman Pat, etc. Now you try to keep them by putting on events they like as they grow older.

 

It's not just about gaining new people, it's keeping the ones you've already got.

 

 

 

Jason

['CHARD]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The current adaptions are actually drawing on marketing surveys / sales figures which shows the average age of the audience has declined. Quite why this is so is a subtle mix of lifestyle factors - including the arrival of dedicated kids TV channels needing content for pre-school kids as well as other more sophisticated toys (e.g. games consoles, smartphone games) being marketed at 7, 8 , 9, etc year old kids displacing more traditional interests.

 

Its not thus the owners are dumbing down through choice as such - but if they continued to try and pitch TTE at the same age as the owners did in the mid 1980s then the revenues would be much reduced. As such the decision was taken to follow the way the audience figures were going (i.e. increasingly lower age groups) to maintain the profitability of the franchise.

 

At a tangent, possibly, but how tricky a proposition to try and position TTTE in the marketplace you've accurately described.  

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Will it though? Can we assume that they actually are (or might become) interested in real railways based on an early interest in Thomas etc.?

 

I don't have any figures to back this up but my feeling is that if you questioned the buyers of current Hornby and Bachmann RTR, you would find at least half of those are returnees to the hobby, their interest having laid dormant for the teenage years at least. When they returned will of course vary - a singleton or couple with no interests in starting a family and a well paid job will have much more cash to burn so will be more able to return than a couple with kids struggling on a low wage.

 

It would an interesting survey topic - but hard to do in practice as the membership of this forum, or indeed model railway clubs doesn't probably accurately reflect the full demographic Hornby etc sell too. You sort of need the information to be collected every time a purchase is made to get a true picture.

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 

Will it though? Can we assume that they actually are (or might become) interested in real railways based on an early interest in Thomas etc.?

 

It's gotta come from somewhere, and I suspect that many who do leave model trains behind in their teens do so because they lack the personal resources (time and space as well as cash) to continue in the way they'd want to.  

 

Looking back, flogging mine was necessary to release cash for a motorbike and time for a girlfriend. Actually the bike took up far too much of both - continually fixing it so I could get out to meet the girlfriend...

 

For many, it's just a "rite of passage" thing and it's anybody's guess what factors or events will rekindle the interest later. However, I'm pretty certain that the much-clamoured-for cheapness won't do it on its own.

 

John

 

  

Edited August 21, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

You've got the kids from an early age with events such as  Santa, Thomas, Peppa Pig, Postman Pat, etc. Now you try to keep them by putting on events they like as they grow older.

 

I do wonder though, even with events varied to still appeal to kids as they get older, whether they will become interested in railways, if the railway is just a tie-in or venue rather than the focus.

 

Thomas is a fairly obvious focus for a children’s event at a heritage railway, but as I recall a situation developed some years ago where the franchise owners wanted to impose increasingly complex and expensive licensing conditions on the railways involved, so they have looked elsewhere, even to TV series that are less obviously related to trains. Presumably more recently some of these series have actually become more popular than Thomas, so that even without other considerations they are a better bet for heritage lines looking to raise funds or maximise income.

 

On a lighter and slightly off-topic note, I was amused to read on another forum about a Peppa Pig event held at one line a few years ago, where catering was allegedly provided in the form of a hog roast. I would love it if somebody could confirm whether this actually happened...

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

On a lighter and slightly off-topic note, I was amused to read on another forum about a Peppa Pig event held at one line a few years ago, where catering was allegedly provided in the form of a hog roast. I would love it if somebody could confirm whether this actually happened...

 

It depends on how identifiable the 'hog'; was

 

With my young nieces we have to be careful about describing Lamb, as, well Lamb! To the girls Lambs are cute baby sheep not dinner....

 

We don't have the same problem with 'Beef' and 'Cows' nor 'Pig' and 'Pork'

 

I understand that this problem stems from the use of the Anlo Saxon based language to identify certain animals as opposed to the Norman / French tradition which clearly differentiates between food and animal

 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Steampunk is the new Kidd on the block as far as themed events go - but again the nature of whet it is means Heritage railways can form and ideal backdrop due to their 'old fashioned' feel. How many of those attending are drawn by the railway element and how many attend so they can meat other steampunk fans, show off their customised clothing, etc.

 

Thus we should be careful in amusing that a Harry potter (or any other 'themed' product) for example will automatically led to a interest in railways (model or real).

For most it won't go beyond the HP/ Steampunk meetup element, but by having them at heritage railways it puts the rail product in view of people who otherwise wouldn't see it, and some might find that they are attracted to the water boiler/ internal combustion racket-maker that gets them around the event.

 

Though railways being rather a conservative hobby, I wonder if a steampunk-er would get a particularly warm welcome from the gold braid brigade if they tried to pursue it further, but that's another issue entirely...

[009 micro modeller]

27 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I understand that this problem stems from the use of the Anlo Saxon based language to identify certain animals as opposed to the Norman / French tradition which clearly differentiates between food and animal

 

I think partly it is also because, at one point and for certain animals, Old English was spoken by those caring for the animals but the meat was often eaten or written about in a culinary context by (Old) French speakers.

 

I think the hog in a hog roast is often quite easily identified. Certainly as a kid I was never put off eating lamb because of watching Shaun the Sheep.  To make this point a bit more on-topic, if the kids aren’t associating Peppa Pig with real pigs, are they any more likely to associate Thomas with real trains? I still think that these events are often a way for heritage lines to offer a family-friendly event and make more money, rather than primarily a way to recruit younger people to the heritage railway itself. There are of course less family-friendly ways for lines to maximise their income... (Google ‘Epping Ongar Railway filming’).

Edited August 21, 2020 by 009 micro modeller