Using the easy-assembly Finetrax pointwork kits in 00 and EM (and in P4 from the S4 Society)

[Izzy]

TBH I’ve had this problem in the past with handmade trackwork using either plain plastic or ABS sleeper strip here I the UK so I don’t think heat is a factor. It’s why I now stick to just Ply or PCB sleepers. Probably okay if stuck down firmly immediately after making.

 

Bob

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

 

 

Pics as requested.

In the last shot there are four 3-2-1 blocks on it and still there's a slight curve at the outer ends.

I will leave them in the sun for a while to see if that does anything.

Thanks for all of your input.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

thanks for the pictures.  I wish we knew what the cause of the warping was.  I can’t immediately think what about the printing process could result in this given that the top and bottom of the sleeper are printed identically.  The top of the sleeper has apparently shrunk introducing the force that has curved the sleeper but why? Has it been subject to strong sun light perhaps?  
You will certainly need some strong adhesive to glue it flat and keep it so.  
I have a test track with three EM points.  These are glued down on a plywood base using UHU glue and after a couple of years there has been no movement.  They were installed almost as soon as I received them so they did not have time to warp. 
Please let us know (either way) how you get on.

Frank

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Pics as requested.

In the last shot there are four 3-2-1 blocks on it and still there's a slight curve at the outer ends.

I will leave them in the sun for a while to see if that does anything.

 

Hi Mike,

 

I have found it very easy to flatten warped 3D resin-printed parts using boiling water. Just fix then down flat and pour boiling water over them.

 

Of course I don't know anything about the type of resin used in the Finetrax kits, but I would be surprised if it doesn't work.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

36 minutes ago, Izzy said:

TBH I’ve had this problem in the past with handmade trackwork using either plain plastic or ABS sleeper strip here I the UK so I don’t think heat is a factor. It’s why I now stick to just Ply or PCB sleepers. Probably okay if stuck down firmly immediately after making.

 

Bob

 

 

This was a common issue which was known and acted upon years ago.

 

Initially thin plastic sleepers and timbers were produced to match up with the ply and rivet building method, the timbers and sleepers started to curl up which was caused by the top surface ot the plastic shrinking as the solvent dried out

 

Two solutions were found, if you needed to use thin timbers/  sleepers then they need to be firmly stuck to a firm track bed, either using impact glue, or weighed down until the glue has set

 

Or use thicker timbers, which are strong  enough to remain level (1.8mm)  A second cause could be the plastic sprue being bent whilst the plastic was cooling down

 

Thin base flexitrack also suffers from sleeper curl, usually caused by track pins being driven in too hard (why 00 gauge track was ever made with thin bases is beyond me as the rivet & ply method is rarely used in 00 gauge, it may have more to do with paxillin PCB used at that time.

 

Track built with ABS sleepers can be far more robust than plastic chairs on ply timbers, if the correct material is used 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Thanks all for your interest and comments.

They are currently in direct sunlight so I'll see if that's done anything later.

I'll try the boiling water trick on another base.

My main worry is that when railed up in their current state the mint gauge doesn't fit between the rails, and that is the main problem I wish to solve.

If it wasn't for the possible damage and wastefulness I'd try impact gluing a kit to a piece of cork secured to the baseboard and cleating it down.

 

Mike.

[billywhizz]

Hi Mike. 
Have you contacted Wayne directly about your warping issue? 
Regards. 
Bill. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

40 minutes ago, billywhizz said:

Hi Mike. 
Have you contacted Wayne directly about your warping issue? 
Regards. 
Bill. 

 

TBH Bill, I thought I'd see if anyone has had the same issue first, didn't think it was worth bothering Wayne initially, although I'll keep him in the loop if/as things develop.

 

Mike.

[BWsTrains]

 

6 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Have you contacted Wayne directly about your warping issue? 

Mike,

 

This little item is to be found on p13 of the default instructions. That's how I worked out how to fix this issue.

 

However, it does appear from the photo that your warping is more extreme than anything I experienced.

They didn't get left in direct sun by any chance? Being dark they'd heat up easily enough.

 

Colin

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

However, it does appear from the photo that your warping is more extreme than anything I experienced.

They didn't get left in direct sun by any chance? Being dark they'd heat up easily enough.

 

Being in Spain I am probably over cautious about how I store things due to the heat and humidity issues.

The kits were stored flat in a Really Useful Box on a  shelf away from the sunlight in the garage, the one place that doesn't get overly hot. I know it's all different plastics etc but such things as plastic rolling stock kits, trackwork, RTR rolling stock etc are kept in similar circumstances and I haven't had any issues.

As you say, the "warping" is to me a little excessive to expect glue to safely hold it down, especially on cork.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

20 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Thanks all for your interest and comments.

They are currently in direct sunlight so I'll see if that's done anything later.

I'll try the boiling water trick on another base.

My main worry is that when railed up in their current state the mint gauge doesn't fit between the rails, and that is the main problem I wish to solve.

If it wasn't for the possible damage and wastefulness I'd try impact gluing a kit to a piece of cork secured to the baseboard and cleating it down.

 

Mike.

 

Well, sunlight did nothing, so this morning I'm trying the boiling water option.

 

Mike.

[billywhizz]

Morning Mike. Have you got more than one point kit? If so, is it just that one that has warped? 
Regards. 
Bill. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Morning Mike. Have you got more than one point kit? If so, is it just that one that has warped? 
Regards. 
Bill. 

 

Four altogether, two each LH & RH, all gone exactly the same way.

They were early purchases from when they first came out.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Well, sunlight did nothing, so this morning I'm trying the boiling water option.

 

Mike.

 

Well, it seems I've found the answer, I need to run the layout submerged in boiling water, not sure what it will do the DCC electrics, but, hey, worth a go!

Seriously though, whilst submerged in boiling water and held flat they went, as expected, flat. Removing them once the water had cooled off and laying them on a flat glass surface the bowing has returned as they reach ambient temperature.

To me, as an amateur engineering chemist, that infers there is a built in imbalance in the sleeper moulding itself which probably can't be got rid of.

Where I probably went wrong is that I didn't lay them immediately upon purchase which may have negated any tendency for movement, and as nobody has mentioned a similar problem I can only assume that is where I went wrong.

I think the next move is to contact Wayne direct and seek his advice.

 

Please note, none of any the foregoing comments is a complaint against Wayne or the company, I still think the range is a breath of fresh air, especially for us awkward sods who persist in modelling in an obscure scale!

 

Mike.

[BWsTrains]

FWIW I had several of the original style cast frog kits bought in September 2021 and I've only just assembled the last of these plus some newer ones bought in July last year. None of these showed any tendency to warping before assembly but all were kept in the original packing until use.

 

Any warping, albeit modest occurred after assembly.

[bradfordbuffer]

7 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Well, it seems I've found the answer, I need to run the layout submerged in boiling water, not sure what it will do the DCC electrics, but, hey, worth a go!

Seriously though, whilst submerged in boiling water and held flat they went, as expected, flat. Removing them once the water had cooled off and laying them on a flat glass surface the bowing has returned as they reach ambient temperature.

To me, as an amateur engineering chemist, that infers there is a built in imbalance in the sleeper moulding itself which probably can't be got rid of.

Where I probably went wrong is that I didn't lay them immediately upon purchase which may have negated any tendency for movement, and as nobody has mentioned a similar problem I can only assume that is where I went wrong.

I think the next move is to contact Wayne direct and seek his advice.

 

Please note, none of any the foregoing comments is a complaint against Wayne or the company, I still think the range is a breath of fresh air, especially for us awkward sods who persist in modelling in an obscure scale!

 

Mike.

Obscure scale em? Have a bash at 3mm scale 14.2mm gauge!...suppose the trade off for living in warm pleasant land if your points curl....living in rainy Yorkshire...only out toes curl as feet always wet!

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Obscure scale em? Have a bash at 3mm scale 14.2mm gauge!...suppose the trade off for living in warm pleasant land if your points curl....living in rainy Yorkshire...only out toes curl as feet always wet!

 

The kits were also kept in their original packaging in as temperature controlled environment as I can manage, maybe they do get hotter than the UK although never in direct sunlight, but I would have thought not so hot as to inflict this level of warping.

As I mentioned earlier, I received some street lamps from the UK which were warped when I received them, so in my simplistic mind it's the formulation/quality of the 3d source plastic, although that's only an amateurs guess.

 

Mike.

[NFWEM57]

On 06/03/2023 at 08:37, Enterprisingwestern said:

Pics as requested.

Is this a straight out of the packet British Finescale turnout or a modified one?. Not clear from the thread?

 

Sorry just spotted the rest of the thread.  My points on the test track lay in direct sun light in a conservatory with a temperate rage of 5~45C through the year.  I built the original OO prototype for Wayne , it never warped.  The latest all rail crossings, double slip and B7s all sit in the same environment.  No warping issues.  Have no idea what might have caused the problem with your turnouts.

 

Good luck with finding a resolution.

Edited March 7, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo

[BWsTrains]

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

The kits were also kept in their original packaging in as temperature controlled environment as I can manage, maybe they do get hotter than the UK although never in direct sunlight, but I would have thought not so hot as to inflict this level of warping.

As I mentioned earlier, I received some street lamps from the UK which were warped when I received them, so in my simplistic mind it's the formulation/quality of the 3d source plastic, although that's only an amateurs guess.

 

Mike.

Mike

 

As you appear alone to have this issue and your handling / storage sounds fine, can you recall from when they arrived, did they look OK, viz flat in their packs? These packs are fairly thin affairs with a backing card so any substantial warping might have been evident.

 

Over here in Australia, in summer I'm constantly in fear of fragile stuff sitting in an uncooled small parcels mail van all day from 7am before arriving at 5pm when it's still 40C outside, higher in the van no doubt. It's entirely plausible for them to have been stressed under such conditions, no doubt Spanish mail drivers park up during the hottest hours for lunch then siesta. Just a thought.

 

Colin

 

 

 

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Guys,

 

Sorry to hear of the warping issue you have. Colin has kindly posted from the assembly instructions above:

 

 

All the bases go through a post heat treatment after they are printed and UV curved. This both helps with material strength and also it helps with warping. But this is, as previously stated, a by product of 3D printing and it seems to readmonly affect some bases more than others. The bases will require to be firmly glued down and ballasted. I have bases here that I’ve glued down with PVA over 3 years ago, they have not budged. Once glued properly while pinned flat, they are fine.

 

Mike, if you send me an email, I can send you a replacement base?

 

Thanks,
Wayne.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Wayne Kinney

[Graham T]

Now there's a good example of looking after your customers!

 

[RBAGE]

3 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

Hi Guys,

 

Sorry to hear of the warping issue you have. Colin has kindly posted from the assembly instructions above:

 

 

All the bases go through a post heat treatment after they are printed and UV curved. This both helps with material strength and also it helps with warping. But this is, as previously stated, a by product of 3D printing and it seems to readmonly affect some bases more than others. The bases will require to be firmly glued down and ballasted. I have bases here that I’ve glued down with PVA over 3 years ago, they have not budged. Once glued properly while pinned flat, they are fine.

 

Mike, if you send me an email, I can send you a replacement base?

 

Thanks,
Wayne.

Hello,

 

I might have mentioned this previously so I apologise for repeating myself. Age is my excuse.

 

When laying any track, I use the Norman Solomon method of using an office stapler to lightly apply a staple across the rail and into the roadbed and baseboard. It's important to apply minimum pressure so that you don't damage the rail. I deliberately allow a gap between the staple and rail then tap the staple to just touch the rail, using a panel pin hammer.

This ensures the timbers are flat between the rails so ensuring the gauge is correct. Once the glue is set the staples can be removed, There may be some lift of the timbers outside the rails but this will not affect running and will be much less apparent when ballasted.

 

I also use this method on plain (flexi) track to maintain position while the adhesive grabs. The time before the adhesive grabs (PVA in my case) is used for final adjustment and then width of the staple allows movement while maintaining the "touch" pressure.

 

Works for me.

 

Bob

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, Graham T said:

Now there's a good example of looking after your customers!

 

 

Accurascale, are you listening?!!

 

Mike.

[bradfordbuffer]

23 minutes ago, RBAGE said:

Hello,

 

I might have mentioned this previously so I apologise for repeating myself. Age is my excuse.

 

When laying any track, I use the Norman Solomon method of using an office stapler to lightly apply a staple across the rail and into the roadbed and baseboard. It's important to apply minimum pressure so that you don't damage the rail. I deliberately allow a gap between the staple and rail then tap the staple to just touch the rail, using a panel pin hammer.

This ensures the timbers are flat between the rails so ensuring the gauge is correct. Once the glue is set the staples can be removed, There may be some lift of the timbers outside the rails but this will not affect running and will be much less apparent when ballasted.

 

I also use this method on plain (flexi) track to maintain position while the adhesive grabs. The time before the adhesive grabs (PVA in my case) is used for final adjustment and then width of the staple allows movement while maintaining the "touch" pressure.

 

Works for me.

 

Bob

Can I use my nail gun?

Note vid was done as a skit in response to some comments on tt120 peco thread!....not my normal method of track laying..but not a million miles from good suggestion above!

G

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

An update for those of you who haven't fallen asleep!

Thanks to Wayne for his generous offer, if the next step doesn't work out I may well take you up on the offer, it's times four though!

I am creating a new bit of micro baseboard, turnout sized, to the same methods as the rest of the train set. I am then going to lay a bare track panel, no rails, and cleat it along each side, then affix it via my normal method of PVA glue, and basically see what happens.

Pictures asap hopefully.

 

Mike.

[TonyW]

Has anyone used this track with foam underlay? 

My layout has Peco OO BH laid on DCC Concepts underlay.  I would really like to have a go at building a couple of these kits but suspect I would need to use cork underlay and glue them down well.  The layout is in a room above my garage with a temprature range of 5 deg C to 20 deg C.  I am planning to move back south to England so that top temperature will go up.

Thanks, Tony