Using the easy-assembly Finetrax pointwork kits in 00 and EM (and in P4 from the S4 Society)

[Wayne Kinney]

35 minutes ago, TonyW said:

Has anyone used this track with foam underlay? 

My layout has Peco OO BH laid on DCC Concepts underlay.  I would really like to have a go at building a couple of these kits but suspect I would need to use cork underlay and glue them down well.  The layout is in a room above my garage with a temprature range of 5 deg C to 20 deg C.  I am planning to move back south to England so that top temperature will go up.

Thanks, Tony

Hi Tony,

 

They would require a solid base and firmly glued down.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Wayne Kinney

[TonyW]

Hi Wayne,  Thanks, I will need to look for some 3mm ply or MDF to bring the height up to the existing track with the foam underlay.  Will have a look on ebay as its a 250 mile round trip to the nearest B&Q, Wicks etc.

[NFWEM57]

4 hours ago, TonyW said:

Has anyone used this track with foam underlay? 

I used 3mm cork on my test track instead of foam underlay for the BF turnouts.  For my planned layout I will be using 3mm polyurethane foam (available from B&Q) and following the excellent guidance about track laying from Norman Solomon at https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/  

 

Not quite sure how long  DCC Concepts or Woodland Scenic foam underlay lasts which is why 3mm polyurethane foam is suggested for use; and which is far far cheaper.

 

Patrick

[TonyW]

10 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

I used 3mm cork on my test track instead of foam underlay for the BF turnouts.  For my planned layout I will be using 3mm polyurethane foam (available from B&Q) and following the excellent guidance about track laying from Norman Solomon at https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/  

 

Not quite sure how long  DCC Concepts or Woodland Scenic foam underlay lasts which is why 3mm polyurethane foam is suggested for use; and which is far far cheaper.

 

Patrick

Thanks, I may buy one and fix it down to cork as a test piece, I have a good stock of 3mm cork which was bought for the fiddle yard. 

 

Quote from DCC Concepts web site "Our DCCconcepts track-bed or track underlay is made using top quality very long life EVA closed cell foam". 

 

Its more expensive but curves easily, other options are available of course, however where I live at the moment its a case of who will actually deliver up here. 

 

B&Q is a 250 mile round trip and they won't deliver, looking forwards to moving back the England and civilisation!

 

Tony

Edited March 11, 2023 by TonyW

[Enterprisingwestern]

The results.

 

 

I used one of the unopened RH B7's as a victim, this is a view with the long side lightly clamped so as not to dig into the cork and compound the felony showing the amount of warpage.

 

 

This is the base fully, lightly, clamped, just enough to hold it level and dilute PVA smeared all over the place with my usual messy incompetence.

 

 

Voila, one finished item.

If you look closely you can see a minute bit of lifting on the outer edge, but considering the before shot, nothing to worry about, if only I could get so accurate with the rest of my tracklaying!

The cork is Javis 1.5mm thick and is quite compact in its surface. Speaking as an inveterate bodger, not an expert, I don't think closed cell underlay would have had sufficient shear strength to resist the initial  warping.

As I keep banging on about, I have no issues with the manufacturer, but will be contacting Wayne with a few questions and suggestions, and also to place a further order once the weekend is out of the way, and anyway, it's too hot here to sit inside at a computer!

 

Mike.

 

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

I know a lot of people use PVA to stick down plastic based track (I've done it before too) but it doesn't have a good grip - PVA is not meant for plastic/nylon etc.  For a good permanent bond use wet impact adhesive and hold down until set.  Only use PVA if at sometime you intend to lift and re-use the track.

[NFWEM57]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

For a good permanent bond use wet impact adhesive and hold down until set. 

What about Copydex?

[Dominion]

If you have any slips or crossing don’t glue those down before you have at least put the couple of rail sections in that require the base to be flexed. I think with the new all rail design you may get way with gluing the base first as you have. However I always assemble them first as Wayne suggests so I can solder in the electrical contacts I want from the underside and then glue the assembly down afterwards. 
 

Your picture looks like it may be the earlier design one with the cast frog. If so they came with pins for the tie bar already soldered to the point blades. The assembly sequence was designed for the base to flex down a little to allow the blades and pins to get in position before the stock rails held the tie bar down. If yours has those kind of blades I am not sure how much space you will have to get them in if it it solidly glued down already. 

[Dominion]

If you do find yourself in that predicament I you may be able to shorten the pins on the blades a little. They are longer than required to engage positively in the tie bar. Still concerned it may not be enough to get the blades past the toe end without any flex. 

[Nick C]

16 minutes ago, Dominion said:

If you have any slips or crossing don’t glue those down before you have at least put the couple of rail sections in that require the base to be flexed. I think with the new all rail design you may get way with gluing the base first as you have. However I always assemble them first as Wayne suggests so I can solder in the electrical contacts I want from the underside and then glue the assembly down afterwards. 
 

Your picture looks like it may be the earlier design one with the cast frog. If so they came with pins for the tie bar already soldered to the point blades. The assembly sequence was designed for the base to flex down a little to allow the blades and pins to get in position before the stock rails held the tie bar down. If yours has those kind of blades I am not sure how much space you will have to get them in if it it solidly glued down already. 

I built a couple of the earlier ones in situ without any problems (I wanted them slightly curved, so it was easier to gluethe base down first to the required curve). I agree that it wouldn't really work with the newer ones.

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I know a lot of people use PVA to stick down plastic based track (I've done it before too) but it doesn't have a good grip - PVA is not meant for plastic/nylon etc.  For a good permanent bond use wet impact adhesive and hold down until set.  Only use PVA if at sometime you intend to lift and re-use the track.

 

I agree with you in that some PVA's do not grip plastic very well

 

Impact adhesive (Evostik etc) also works very well

1 hour ago, NFWEM57 said:

What about Copydex?

 

My wife (who was a commercial artist) taught me to use Copydex as an impact adhesive. Works very well when you coat both surfaces, allow to dry then impact them together

 

Modern polymer (NoNails) glue also works very well, as it is desined to stick plastics and other material

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Dominion said:

If you do find yourself in that predicament I you may be able to shorten the pins on the blades a little. They are longer than required to engage positively in the tie bar. Still concerned it may not be enough to get the blades past the toe end without any flex. 

 

That one is glued down as an experiment to flatten it on a scrap piece of baseboard, so won't be used as is, but I see no reason for any difficulty fitting the rails in situ TBPH, but anyway, I have a plan which I will be discussing with the boss.

 

The surplus metal on the point blades is coming off anyway, I find the operating tiebar to be the cosmetic weak link in both these and the Peco/EMGS turnouts.

 

Mike.

[BWsTrains]

8 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I know a lot of people use PVA to stick down plastic based track (I've done it before too) but it doesn't have a good grip - PVA is not meant for plastic/nylon etc

 

I've been using PVA for 60 years and I can assure you it sticks (physically) well enough to plastics to make it really tough getting the tops off from already opened bottles. By habit I always wipe the top and neck carefully with a wet sponge a couple of times. Even a small film left on the top surface is enough to seal it shut.

 

TBH there is virtually no glue that will give a secure bond onto pure olefin # based polymers yet PVA will stick the lid on a polythene container, ask me how I know!

Just about any adhesive,  even CA will warn you about this limitation on olefin polymers.

 

With PVA the adhesive will penetrate the cork giving its structure more strength for a start. The rest is the weak adhesive force applying over a very wide surface area but the challenge as Mike has shown will be keeping a non-flat base fully in contact with the cork while the glue drys and sets.

 

I favour the "heavy block on the rails approach" but then I've yet to glue a base permanently in place using PVA by this technique. Here it is shown spanning the join between two turnouts forming a crossover but it is big enough to cover one during installation. I'm fortunate in having a good supply of these photo blocks which weigh over 2kg each with dead straight edges and faces.

 

When not in use I can turn them around and have my grandsons "watching" me 😊

 

 

# Polyethylene (PE) Polypropylene (PP) etc.

 

[Dominion]

I have used pva and copydex to glue several of Wayne’s bases to cork.  Using weights on the rails while drying. Both have worked fine. 

[nick_bastable]

in the absents of the 2mm Easitrac glue I found Gorilla PVA glue worked well on the track  I assume maybe incorrectltly the 4mm versions are moulded in the same plastic  ( for info both glue types grab although weights are essential )

[BWsTrains]

I'd be happy using either type of adhesive but the appeal for me of using PVA is the ability to soften the glue and remove the turnout non-destructively if the need ever arose. With these precious kit builds it's not just a case of popping an order into your favourite box shifter or store for a replacement PECO.

[BWsTrains]

Meanwhile, I've installed a trap turnout built from parts of a British Finescale B7 Kit. This is described over on my project topic but I thought I'd share the results here. Like most of my installs, this location required the trap to be given a modest curvature.

 

The near end is not fixed down pending further work so may not be precisely located in this photo.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by BWsTrains

[NFWEM57]

On 12/03/2023 at 05:24, BWsTrains said:

trap turnout

Hopefully, Wayne will eventually manufacture one of these..!

[The Fatadder]

19 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Hopefully, Wayne will eventually manufacture one of these..!

Would be a very useful addition (as would an A6), fortunately the rebuild of Wheal Imogen only needed the one B7, but either its extension or the planed depot layout will certainly be in need of at least one trap. 

[Jack P]

Finally bit the bullet and started my two EM kits. 

Much to my surprise.. I also finished them!

 

 

Need to now go through and fix everything down (and swap out the slightly too short stock rail on the diamond). I was hugely impressed with the instructions, the bases print quality & the general approach to construction. I'm also amazed at the quality of the end result that I managed to produce. 

 

I had thought for a long time, that the cast common crossing was a godsend, but having built the diamond from all rail, I can see how much nicer they look, and not difficult either!

 

Wayne, could I just check, are the sleepers a specific spacing/width? I'm just comparing the turnout to my PECO EM flexitrack, and the timbers are thinner and differently spaced. I've got a junction to build, and so I'd love to make sure that things match up - should I be using C&L flexi instead? Definitely not a criticism as this is my first foray into 'proper' track construction!

 

 

Thanks in advance, and thank you for producing such an excellent product!!

Edited March 19, 2023 by Jack P

[Nick C]

My understanding is that pointwork timbers are usually 12" wide, whereas plain line sleepers are 9". I suspect that like most things, it probably depends on era and company...

Edited March 19, 2023 by Nick C

[martin_wynne]

22 minutes ago, Nick C said:

My understanding is that pointwork timbers are usually 12" wide, whereas plain line sleepers are 9". I suspect that like most things, it probably depends on era and company...

 

Hi Nick,

 

Plain line sleepers are 10" wide. The two dimensions 12" and 10" have been remarkably standard across all companies and periods for standard-gauge tracks. (Narrow-gauge can differ.)

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Chuffer Davies]

6 hours ago, Jack P said:

Finally bit the bullet and started my two EM kits. 

Much to my surprise.. I also finished them!

 

 

Need to now go through and fix everything down (and swap out the slightly too short stock rail on the diamond). I was hugely impressed with the instructions, the bases print quality & the general approach to construction. I'm also amazed at the quality of the end result that I managed to produce. 

 

I had thought for a long time, that the cast common crossing was a godsend, but having built the diamond from all rail, I can see how much nicer they look, and not difficult either!

 

Wayne, could I just check, are the sleepers a specific spacing/width? I'm just comparing the turnout to my PECO EM flexitrack, and the timbers are thinner and differently spaced. I've got a junction to build, and so I'd love to make sure that things match up - should I be using C&L flexi instead? Definitely not a criticism as this is my first foray into 'proper' track construction!

 

 

Thanks in advance, and thank you for producing such an excellent product!!

Hi Jack,

sleeper spacing varies between plain track and points/crossings so they won’t match.  In fact sleeper spacing, length and cross section varied through time and across companies so it is quite difficult to ensure that your track work is definitely correct.  N.B. the sleeper spacing reduces as it approaches a rail joint to provide greater support and sleeper width whilst normally 10inch was 12inch for the sleepers either side of the fishplate. 
I think you are safe to stick with the EMGS plain track unless you are going to be pedantic about getting your track work absolutely correct for your company and period being modelled.

Frank

Edited March 19, 2023 by Chuffer Davies
More info

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, Jack P said:

Finally bit the bullet and started my two EM kits. 

Much to my surprise.. I also finished them!

 

 

Need to now go through and fix everything down (and swap out the slightly too short stock rail on the diamond). I was hugely impressed with the instructions, the bases print quality & the general approach to construction. I'm also amazed at the quality of the end result that I managed to produce. 

 

I had thought for a long time, that the cast common crossing was a godsend, but having built the diamond from all rail, I can see how much nicer they look, and not difficult either!

 

Wayne, could I just check, are the sleepers a specific spacing/width? I'm just comparing the turnout to my PECO EM flexitrack, and the timbers are thinner and differently spaced. I've got a junction to build, and so I'd love to make sure that things match up - should I be using C&L flexi instead? Definitely not a criticism as this is my first foray into 'proper' track construction!

 

 

Thanks in advance, and thank you for producing such an excellent product!!

 

 

I think you will find the templates in Templot will match up with Wayne's turnouts, certainly others have used the Templot templates

 

The software is free

The software is automated for a simple Diamond crossing

Templot club is both friendly and helpful 

 

Buy if you are uneasy in making a template I guess one of us will be happy to send a PDF to you

 

As for the differences between Peco and Finetrax, it may be down to the geometry used. As a general rule timbers in most situations will be 12". 10" sleepers usually are for plain track 

[BWsTrains]

7 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I can see how much nicer they look, (all rail frogs)

 

I've several of both types and while I know what you mean, as per your photo, when you blacken the inner parts and paint up the cast frog I find it hard to tell the difference from normal viewing distance.

 

The one thing I have noticed is that the rail surface of cast frogs loses its luster quicker than normal nickel silver rail and needs a more regular polish. Perhaps Wayne can provide some comment on this?