Using the easy-assembly Finetrax pointwork kits in 00 and EM (and in P4 from the S4 Society)

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

As if your average modeller will notice, let alone care!

 

Mike.

 

But they aren't the ones using Finetrax kits, which is what this topic is about.

 

Martin.

[NFWEM57]

The thread has come alive again..!  Thanks for highlighting the errors in TT120.  

[whart57]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

TT-120 would have been much more attractive on 11mm gauge. That way they could be exact scale models, easily converted to P-120 exact-scale wheels on 11.96mm gauge, and possibly generated a whole new finescale hobby segment.

 

 

I don't think Hornby and PECO are interested in creating a whole new finescale hobby segment with half a dozen modellers in it.

 

Simon Kohler goes on about exact scale-gauge being possible with TT-120 as a marketing soundbite. His designers will have told him about the compromises they have had to make. However as it is as near as spot on as makes no difference (1440mm as against the real 1435mm) it shuts off alternative interpretations. Anyone bothered by fat wheels will put on thinner ones. It won't be easy but it is possible. Most won't bother though.

 

There is one other issue though, namely international compatibility. At the moment there is not much cross-over between British railways and continental ones, Class 66s being the main one. However given that these days only a handful of companies are behind all the world's trains it's likely that in future there will be more.

[billywhizz]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:54, Wayne Kinney said:

Thanks for all your suggestions, Guys!

 

As it was almost finished, I've just released the 00 Gauge A5 kit:

 

 

https://www.britishfinescale.com/product-p/finetrax-00-a5.htm

 

Going to do the 00 Gauge B7 Standard Crossover next...

Hi Wayne. Any update on the B7 standard crossover? 
Regards. 
Bill. 

[bradfordbuffer]

15 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

I don't think Hornby and PECO are interested in creating a whole new finescale hobby segment with half a dozen modellers in it.

 

Simon Kohler goes on about exact scale-gauge being possible with TT-120 as a marketing soundbite. His designers will have told him about the compromises they have had to make. However as it is as near as spot on as makes no difference (1440mm as against the real 1435mm) it shuts off alternative interpretations. Anyone bothered by fat wheels will put on thinner ones. It won't be easy but it is possible. Most won't bother though.

 

There is one other issue though, namely international compatibility. At the moment there is not much cross-over between British railways and continental ones, Class 66s being the main one. However given that these days only a handful of companies are behind all the world's trains it's likely that in future there will be more.

Hst railadventure power cars in hannover....class 20s to Bosnia....a 47 in Budapest 58s in Holland 87s in Bulgaria 08 look alike in Holland...37s and 58s in France...all novelties for euro layouts! 

 

My wheel treads on my 14.2mm Motor bogie from loconstuff will make a purists start counting rivets buy it trundles through points 

Edited January 22, 2023 by bradfordbuffer

[whart57]

12 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Hst railadventure power cars in handover....class 20s to Bosnia....a 47 in Budapest 58s in Holland 87s in Bulgaria 08 look alike in Holland...37s and 58s in France...all novelties for euro layouts!

 

I'm glad you mentioned the NS 600s, I got burned for suggesting they were 08s ...... 🥵

 

Not mentioned of course is that someone who happily runs Flying Scotsman while a Merchant Navy Pacific is going round the other track and a Pannier shunts the yard is not going to be fussed about having a German or American loco in the mix as well. As long as it doesn't look silly by being too small.

[bradfordbuffer]

42 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

I'm glad you mentioned the NS 600s, I got burned for suggesting they were 08s ...... 🥵

 

Not mentioned of course is that someone who happily runs Flying Scotsman while a Merchant Navy Pacific is going round the other track and a Pannier shunts the yard is not going to be fussed about having a German or American loco in the mix as well. As long as it doesn't look silly by being too small.

Rule one!

[RichardT]

52 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Not mentioned of course is that someone who happily runs Flying Scotsman while a Merchant Navy Pacific is going round the other track and a Pannier shunts the yard is not going to be fussed

…about hand-assembling better-looking track.  It’s not my place to tell Wayne how to run his business, but I’m not sure there’s much mileage in him investing in a TT-120 12mm gauge range until TT-120 stops being largely a vapourware scale monopolised by a company that just wants to sell train sets & train set accessories to “model railway curious” newbies, who it also wants to tie entirely to its own proprietary ecosystem.  
 

It might be worth doing if Wayne can get crossover sales to 3mm modellers using 12mm gauge, but I would have thought that most 3mm modellers bothered about finer track will use 14.2mm gauge.

 

Despite being an N/2mm modeller I’m intrigued by TT-120 as a possibility for a small steam-era* layout, as I’m never 100% happy with the look of the outside valve gear on many rtr N locos. But I can’t see any TT-120 locos in a shop to judge what they look like, and from what Martin says above I may be up for a disappointment.  Also, given Hornby’s “direct sales only to non-traditional buyers” model, how long is it going to be before I will see a steam TT-120 layout at a show? I’m not sure much of Hornby’s target market will be buying to build exhibition layouts! 

 

So, I’m not risking my money ordering sight-unseen until this new scale matures a lot more. And until then I’ll not be in the market for finer scale 12mm trackwork.

*OT: I say steam era specifically because I’ve no idea why anyone wanting to model the post-1968 railway in a small space would choose current TT-120 over N/2FS.  The “too fiddly” argument is much less relevant, converting N diesels/electrics to 2FS is pretty simple if you’re bothered about scale track, and it will be years/a decade before TT-120 catches up with the range of diesel & electric stock available in N.

 

RichardT (not RichardTT for now)

 

EDIT

APOLOGIES - just looked again at the thread title. This post is way OT - my fault for following a diversion.

Edited January 22, 2023 by RichardT
Typo, and apology

[whart57]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

It might be worth doing if Wayne can get crossover sales to 3mm modellers using 12mm gauge, but I would have thought that most 3mm modellers bothered about finer track will use 14.2mm gauge.

 

And Wayne has already delivered a decent range of 14.2mm gauge items to the 3mm Society

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I've got badly bent timbering, (ooo err missus), too far gone to expect cork to hold it alignment once glued and ballasted.

Apologies if we've already been here, it's a long thread to wade through, I'm assuming the solution is a trip to the oven on a flat surface, but what sort of temperature, and with or without the rails in place?

 

Mike.

[bradfordbuffer]

On 22/01/2023 at 15:07, whart57 said:

 

And Wayne has already delivered a decent range of 14.2mm gauge items to the 3mm Society

A5 & B6 turnouts, main to main x overs b6 and a double slip....not bad for minority scale and gauge? 

Edited March 4, 2023 by bradfordbuffer

[Nick C]

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I've got badly bent timbering, (ooo err missus), too far gone to expect cork to hold it alignment once glued and ballasted.

Apologies if we've already been here, it's a long thread to wade through, I'm assuming the solution is a trip to the oven on a flat surface, but what sort of temperature, and with or without the rails in place?

 

Mike.

If it came like that, probably best to drop Wayne a PM or email - he'll be best placed to advise. 

[The Fatadder]

My first Finetrax point kit (OO B7) arrived yesterday, set to work building it today at the Swindon model exhibition.  I had forgotten the print out of the template so made do using the pdf opened on my phone.  Impressed how easy it went together, will definitely be using them again on future projects 

[BWsTrains]

9 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I've got badly bent timbering, (ooo err missus), too far gone to expect cork to hold it alignment once glued and ballasted.

Apologies if we've already been here, it's a long thread to wade through, I'm assuming the solution is a trip to the oven on a flat surface, but what sort of temperature, and with or without the rails in place?

 

Mike.

 

I had a somewhat different but possibly relevant situation, described on my topic here:

 

(track-making pros pls excuse the bodgery disclosed) I needed to hold two templates of a crossover precisely together when my bad design prevented me having rail connectors between them.

 

My solution was to place a plastic insert# in a recess created from removing the cork and a layer of base ply, giving me something I could firmly glue down onto.

Then use a perspex photo block, hefty and dead flat to hold it in situ while the glue sets. I'd use a flexible superglue to fix to the PVC and standard PVA for sleepers to cork.

 

If you have the rails in, I suspect that three of these will do the job to keep it flat, along the the rest of the sleepers being glued to your cork.

 

PS, if the kit is not yet built you could try the perspex block trick on the template with rails inserted on a flat surface and leave for a few days. The plastic may well creep back to a more friendly condition. Safer than ovens!  I've tended to flatten mine this way during kit builds (10 now and counting)

 

# 3mm thick filled PVC of the type used in modern Venetian blinds, easy to cut, stays flat and easy to glue. You always get excess in an install so I've a ready supply.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by BWsTrains
PS + typo

[Enterprisingwestern]

16 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

I had a somewhat different but possibly relevant situation, described on my topic here:

 

(track-making pros pls excuse the bodgery disclosed) I needed to hold two templates of a crossover precisely together when my bad design prevented me having rail connectors between them.

 

My solution was to place a plastic insert# in a recess created from removing the cork and a layer of base ply, giving me something I could firmly glue down onto.

Then use a perspex photo block, hefty and dead flat to hold it in situ while the glue sets. I'd use a flexible superglue to fix to the PVC and standard PVA for sleepers to cork.

 

If you have the rails in, I suspect that three of these will do the job to keep it flat, along the the rest of the sleepers being glued to your cork.

 

PS, if the kit is not yet built you could try the perspex block trick on the template with rails inserted on a flat surface and leave for a few days. The plastic may well creep back to a more friendly condition. Safer than ovens!  I've tended to flatten mine this way during kit builds (10 now and counting)

 

# 3mm thick filled PVC of the type used in modern Venetian blinds, easy to cut, stays flat and easy to glue. You always get excess in an install so I've a ready supply.

 

 

 

My problem is the fact that they will be laid on cork which has no tear strength to resist the timbering curving again.

 

Mike.

[bradfordbuffer]

30 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

My problem is the fact that they will be laid on cork which has no tear strength to resist the timbering curving again.

 

Mike.

Cut the point cork out replace with ply once balasted you or any one else will never know...

Once the ballast has been set in what ever you use any flex in Cork is cancelled out may be just a bit of sound deadening at best and a shoulder for edge of ballast.....

Just a thought! Other methods are avaliable! 

[hayfield]

Would warming it up with a hair dryer help?

[Chuffer Davies]

On 04/03/2023 at 14:34, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I've got badly bent timbering, (ooo err missus), too far gone to expect cork to hold it alignment once glued and ballasted.

Apologies if we've already been here, it's a long thread to wade through, I'm assuming the solution is a trip to the oven on a flat surface, but what sort of temperature, and with or without the rails in place?

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

any chance you could take a picture to illustrate the problem?  When you say bent, do you actually mean bent or has it warped/curved? Do you have any idea what caused this deformation in the first place?  
Frank

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Cut the point cork out replace with ply once balasted you or any one else will never know...

Once the ballast has been set in what ever you use any flex in Cork is cancelled out may be just a bit of sound deadening at best and a shoulder for edge of ballast.....

Just a thought! Other methods are avaliable! 

 

TBPH ply in Spain will probably be more warped than the turnout, especially thin stuff if I can get it!

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

Would warming it up with a hair dryer help?

 

Dunno, I don't want to beggar it up, hence my question if anyone else has been here.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Mike,

any chance you could take a picture to illustrate the problem?  When you say bent, do you actually mean bent or has it warped/curved? Do you have any idea what caused this deformation in the first place?  
Frank

 

I shall do a pic in the morning.

It has curved along the length of the timber.

As to what caused it, I suspect it's a by product of 3d printing, I have street lights with a similar issue. I can only assume 3d polymers don't like thin straight mouldings.

 

Mike.

[BWsTrains]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I shall do a pic in the morning.

It has curved along the length of the timber.

As to what caused it, I suspect it's a by product of 3d printing, I have street lights with a similar issue. I can only assume 3d polymers don't like thin straight mouldings.

 

Mike.

 

Like you I'm operating in a very warm climate in summer and while some timbers here warped substantially after inserting the rails, pressing them flat under a weight sorted out the issue and it didn't arise again. I should add that as I was curving virtually all my kits, I'd snipped out the webbing as required.

 

Give the pressing a try first, least destructive option.

 

The other thing I've done is hold all my installed turnouts in position with cleats on the layout until I'm ready to do the final gluing down. When I needed to lift them for further wiring and minor adjustments they were all still good and flat.

 

I feel you're overly concerned that they'll pull off the cork and I think they should be fine when firmly glued down over their entire area, as long as you've flattened them out first.

 

If unsure, try flattening and gluing one onto a test board overlaid with cork, the "undo" is only to stick it all in a bucket of water!

 

Colin

 

 

[bradfordbuffer]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

TBPH ply in Spain will probably be more warped than the turnout, especially thin stuff if I can get it!

 

Mike.

5 sheets of 3mm ply on ebay for 15 quid ish labeled for laser cutting, should warp less as small sheets keep it under books till ready to use...all depends on original cork size....once evosticked to base board its not going to warp any more

good look with finding solution...

G

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

 

 

Pics as requested.

In the last shot there are four 3-2-1 blocks on it and still there's a slight curve at the outer ends.

I will leave them in the sun for a while to see if that does anything.

Thanks for all of your input.

 

Mike.

[hayfield]

On 21/01/2023 at 19:20, martin_wynne said:

 

They have made the classic mistake of using over-scale RTR wheel profiles on an exact-scale track gauge.

 

As a result, all the models will be over scale width below the footplate to allow for the thicker wheels and side-play for curves. (Just like in H0 -- are you listening NMRA?)

 

There is a reason why the established UK scales use a reduced track gauge for RTR -- 00, EM, 0-MF, 0-Fine, UK-N. That way our RTR models can be exact scale models, ripe for conversion to the finer scales if wanted. You can't do that with H0 or TT:120, they are not scale models to start with.

 

We sensibly keep the exact-gauge track for exact-scale wheels only -- P4, S7, etc.

 

TT-120 would have been much more attractive on 11mm gauge. That way they could be exact scale models, easily converted to P-120 exact-scale wheels on 11.96mm gauge, and possibly generated a whole new finescale hobby segment. And on 11mm gauge the Hornby designers would have had a much better chance of getting them round train-set curves.

 

Heaven knows why modellers are so fixated on the track gauge, it's not important compared with other factors. For example, the TT:120 steam locos will look daft with the splashers about a foot wider than the prototype.

 

Martin.

 

Sounds like it has not been thought through thoroughly enough.

 

My own opinion when here in the UK we have two existing TT scales what a third new scale achieves, simply ignoring those who are already using the gauge