"We only accept cheques drawn on UK banks via a mail order..."

[Guest WM183]

56 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

As annoying as it might be, the ability to take cards for a small trader is expensive. So if they opt for the cheaper and easier option for them, that's their prerogative. 

 

 

I am a small business proprietor. I use PayPal (a business account) for virtually all billing and payments. Yes, there are fees. Those fees are nowhere near as large a loss as not making a sale in the first place because I insist on a method of payment my customers simply cannot access.

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, Penlan said:

In west Cornwall, cash and cheques are a regular way of paying, and certainly in the recent Covid times, paying people who've brought our shopping etc., (our house is full of over 75's) is easiest done by cheque....
When it's mentioned about moving to a cashless Society, there is much laughter at this prospect 'Way down West'.

 

@Penlan - I certainly empathise with that, it's the same here in rural Wiltshire.

 

Maybe it's a thing in more traditional &/or rural areas, where we still have things like Gardening Clubs and Social Groups that don't want to open a Business Account. Even if they could, given the recent news about people who have tried to start a new business, but banks are refusing to let them open an account.

 

2 hours ago, Kylestrome said:

 

In Germany (and I've no doubt in the Netherlands too) we've relied for decades on direct bank transfers (Überweisungen) which are easily accessible to ninety year olds without internet. Since the advent of IBAN and BIC it's also a simple matter to make payments internationally except to Britain. PayPal has made life a lot easier in recent years and I hardly ever need my credit card except (you've guessed it) for some payments to Britain. Vive la différence!

 

David

 

@Kylestrome  We've experienced something similar with customers from Germany, who couldn't pay us in Britain via IBAN or BACS. Strangely, other customers in places like France, Belguim, Netherlands and Norway have had no problem. Worst of all (for them) are customers in the USA and Canada, who get charged extortionate amounts for what should be a simple transfer of cash from an account in credit.

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Kylestrome said:

 

In Germany (and I've no doubt in the Netherlands too) we've relied for decades on direct bank transfers (Überweisungen) which are easily accessible to ninety year olds without internet. Since the advent of IBAN and BIC it's also a simple matter to make payments internationally except to Britain. PayPal has made life a lot easier in recent years and I hardly ever need my credit card except (you've guessed it) for some payments to Britain. Vive la différence!

 

David

 

But Germany (I cannot comment on the Netherlands) has historically been very different regarding finance.  When I arrived in 1996 bank cards were almost unheard of.  You could use them in a train station, a hotel and to buy an airline ticket but almost nowhere else.

 

Cash was king.

 

And I soon learnt to get very twitchy if I had less than 250DM (£100+) in my wallet.  [In the UK if I had my bank card, a £10 note meant I was lard of the manor.]

 

The Ueberweisung was the equivalent of a cheque and cheque books (Eurocheques - before the days of the Euro) were essentially for international transactions.   As soon as the Euro arrived, the euro-cheque book disappeared.

 

Although card transactions had increased enormously when I left Germany in 2013, cash was still very much the main way to conduct business.

[Kylestrome]

2 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

When I arrived in 1996 bank cards were almost unheard of.

 

We've caught up a bit since then! These days I pay mostly contactless, which is now the preferred method due to the pandemic – not that this has much to do with the OP.

[31A]

6 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

But Germany (I cannot comment on the Netherlands) has historically been very different regarding finance.  When I arrived in 1996 bank cards were almost unheard of.  You could use them in a train station, a hotel and to buy an airline ticket but almost nowhere else.

 

Cash was king.

 

And I soon learnt to get very twitchy if I had less than 250DM (£100+) in my wallet.  [In the UK if I had my bank card, a £10 note meant I was lard of the manor.]

 

The Ueberweisung was the equivalent of a cheque and cheque books (Eurocheques - before the days of the Euro) were essentially for international transactions.   As soon as the Euro arrived, the euro-cheque book disappeared.

 

Although card transactions had increased enormously when I left Germany in 2013, cash was still very much the main way to conduct business.

 

Agree - I remember trying to pay by card in a big department store in Aachen for a not insubstantial purchase, in the 1980s.  What a drama - it obviously wasn't an everyday occurrence for them!

 

[Guest WM183]

19 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

But Germany (I cannot comment on the Netherlands) has historically been very different regarding finance.  When I arrived in 1996 bank cards were almost unheard of.  You could use them in a train station, a hotel and to buy an airline ticket but almost nowhere else.

 

Cash was king.

 

And I soon learnt to get very twitchy if I had less than 250DM (£100+) in my wallet.  [In the UK if I had my bank card, a £10 note meant I was lard of the manor.]

 

The Ueberweisung was the equivalent of a cheque and cheque books (Eurocheques - before the days of the Euro) were essentially for international transactions.   As soon as the Euro arrived, the euro-cheque book disappeared.

 

Although card transactions had increased enormously when I left Germany in 2013, cash was still very much the main way to conduct business.

 

I do most of my grocery shopping - and a good deal of other shopping - in nearby Aachen (It is the closest big city to us) and I have never used cash. Paying with a Dutch bank card there is simplicty; I'd probably get weirder looks if I *did* use cash!

Amanda

[JSModels]

I've been banking online since 2001, and stopped using cheques probably 15 years ago.

 

Then our club treasurer resigned, and I was press-ganged into taking over. All cheques and paying-in books!!! Trying to get access to internet banking has been an absolute nightmare, but I'm determined to drag the club into the 21st century. Because it's taking so long to get it set up (4+ weeks and counting!) I had to give in and write a cheque on Friday, as the clubroom rent needed to be paid!

 

I've been dealing with membership renewals the last week or so, and I'd say around 50% of members are paying by cheque, though even one or two of the older ones have done bank transfers.

 

Jonathan

[Steamport Southport]

41 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

@Penlan - I certainly empathise with that, it's the same here in rural Wiltshire.

 

Maybe it's a thing in more traditional &/or rural areas, where we still have things like Gardening Clubs and Social Groups that don't want to open a Business Account. Even if they could, given the recent news about people who have tried to start a new business, but banks are refusing to let them open an account.

 

 

 

I don't think it's just rural areas. You should see the students panic when they go to pubs and clubs in cities like Liverpool and Manchester, and find that most of the boozers don't have cashless or insist they have to spend over £20 to use their card. It's really only 'Spoons that are cashless.

 

"Can I pay by phone app?"

"On yer bike son!"

 

That's major cities. I doubt the average small town business in Lancashire or Yorkshire are going to be very tech friendly.

 

 

Jason

[Arun Sharma]

As a trader who only uses private i.e., personal as opposed to business accounts, cheques make considerable sense. If you have a business account, then you will be charged when you pay in a cheque from someone. That doesn't apply with personal accounts. 

Secondly, quite a few businesses that I deal with such as brass foundries prefer cash or cheques. They don't like credit cards or Paypal because of the charges involved.

The kits that I've designed, when not sold at shows, are generally paid for by cheque. At shows, they are generally paid for by cash or by credit card to someone else who then reimburses me. Many O gauge modellers [perhaps slightly older than 4mm modellers?] prefer to go to a show with cash presumably so as to control their finances and perhaps avoid impulse buys[?]

 

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, WM183 said:

 

I am a small business proprietor. I use PayPal (a business account) for virtually all billing and payments. Yes, there are fees. Those fees are nowhere near as large a loss as not making a sale in the first place because I insist on a method of payment my customers simply cannot access.

 

But what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for someone else.

 

This discussion about traders that don't take payment other than cheques has played out here countless times, and yet those traders are still in business, so they're getting the quantity of business they either want, or are able to handle.  

Whenever I see this topic raise it's head I'm always reminded of the advertising directories that would promise more work if I used them. My reply was always that I worked 6 days a week as it was, so didn't need any extra work. 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, it is actually social irresponsibility on the part of the so-called high street banks.

 

3 hours ago, RFS said:

 

It's the customers moving away from cheques and cash that's triggering all the bank closures. That's because it's far more convenient for us to do our business electronically as well. Can't remember when I last wrote a cheque, let alone last walked into a bank. 

 

DVLA did send me a refund recently via cheque, but with HSBC I was able to pay it in from home using my mobile phone (ie you send them a photo of it!). 

 

 

 

Its a bit of both.

 

Firstly you need to recognise the fundamental point that needing to go into a bank is a chore - there is nothing fundamental about a bank which requires you to be physically present (unlike say getting a haircut at the barbers or walking away with some shopping). Yes you may enjoy chatting to the cashier you have known for years while making a transaction - but banks are there to conduct banking business, not function as places to catch up with friends or the local gossip.

 

As such many will have embraced doing things online / by phone when it suits them - not fit there lives around branch opening hours.

 

That said its also obvious that the less people who use a bank branch, the less profitable it becomes. Banks, like railways are NOT charities there to subside socially beneficial but loss making services from there own profits. If society as a whole deems something  desirable (e.g. to keep loss making bank branches open then against the wishes of the business), as with railways, it has to stump up the cash to do so through taxes.

 

On the flip side however, banks have generally done very well in terms of profits over the past two decades or so and outside of the immediate aftermath of the 2008 financial crash many shareholders have received bumper dividends. That has understandably given many to question the 'morals' of said banks particularly at times when many ordinary folk are suffering and the vulnerable sections of society tend to be hit hardest by the continued reduction in bank branches.

 

Against that however you have to also remember that many other companies could also be said to have lost their moral compass. Whether its not properly funding pension schemes, using clever financial setups to avoid paying tax or some of the derisory terms dished out to staff by the Governments 'Outsourcing specialists' all seem to not really care about much else than 'maximising shareholder value'

 

Thus ultimately rather than blaming the banks for 'a lack of social responsibility' we actually need to take a good hard look at ourselves - yes the citizens and electorate of this country who have consistently prioritised, low taxes and a 'me, me, me' culture when politicians are asking for our vote has resulted not only a reluctance to properly fund loss making things things society deems necessary through taxes, but has also left a legacy where what mechanisms we do have to protect the interests of the vulnerable not working properly as they might get in the way of competition, globalisation and high share prices!

 

 

[Guest WM183]

15 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

But what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for someone else.

 

This discussion about traders that don't take payment other than cheques has played out here countless times, and yet those traders are still in business, so they're getting the quantity of business they either want, or are able to handle.  

Whenever I see this topic raise it's head I'm always reminded of the advertising directories that would promise more work if I used them. My reply was always that I worked 6 days a week as it was, so didn't need any extra work. 

So for those people who would like to buy their products but cannot , because we simply cannot pay by check... what do we do? You're suggesting that they simply don't want our business?

[Michael Hodgson]

If you're worried about losing your local bank branch you need to use it - the banks are only doing what Beeching did to railways that nobody was using at the time.

 

I have spent most of my working life in banking, financial services and payment systems. Payment methods have been evolving throughout my life and still are.  A hundred years ago, only businesses and the upper class an later the middle class had bank accounts - the ordinary working man was paid in cash and paid for everything the same way.  Cheques had been developed as a special class of the Bills of Exchange which were rather more important in Victorian trade, especially over long distances and internationally.

 

Until a fortnight before sterling went decimal in 1971 you had to pay a flat tax of 2d (two old pence) "Stamp Duty" on every cheque you wrote.  This is why many people believed that they had to "buy" a cheque book from their bank for five shillings - they were simply paying this tax, but it did mean it was uneconomic to write cheques for piffling transactions like buying your lunch. Individuals only wrote cheques for big ticket purchases and payments that need to be made by mail - shops wouldn't often take cheques until the cheque guarantee cards were introduced.  ATMs also only really started in the early 1970s in this country - before that you would cash a cheque at the bank counter 

 

A little before that all big employers had stopped paying wages weekly in cash and insisted on paying (usually monthly) into bank accounts, so everybody had to open one.  Initially of course, many workers went straight to the bank and drew out every last penny in cash.  But this saved companies a lot of manpower in making up wage packets and handling the security risk of having a lot of cash in the office.  It simply dumped that cost onto the banks.  As part of this trend it was politically essential that the banks allowed you to have a current account without paying bank charges, at least provided you kept your account in credit.  The UK was unusual in this respect - it cost you to run a bank account in most other countries.  Many European countries didn't use cheques much, preferring to use "bank giro" system and paying direct into suppliers' bank accounts.

 

Computerisation enabled banks to eliminate much of their clerical workload, but in time cheque processing became one of the major remaining bureaucratic costs.  Anyway credit cards followed by debit cards and then real-time systems had gradually meant that cheques became relatively costly as well as having an inefficient 3-day clearing cycle - though that was considerably faster than the way the USA cleared cheques.  Even that had only possible become courtesy of the GPO and our wonderful mail trains.

 

I still write a few cheques a year, I use paypal rather than credit and debit cards for many online purchases, and that type of system might appear to be the future as online shopping increases and cash usage in general continues to decline.  As a result of Covid, I rarely go into a shop now, so this year I have used very little cash.  The government would prefer us to stop using cash altogether and use electronic payments instead as they want to be able trace the proceeds of crime.  However it remains to be seen whether the public will insist on keeping the anonymity they have with cash, and cryptocurrency payments could possibly become the norm, provided of course it can be based on a currency much less volatile than bitcoin.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

24 minutes ago, WM183 said:

So for those people who would like to buy their products but cannot , because we simply cannot pay by check... what do we do? You're suggesting that they simply don't want our business?

Any small trader who takes cheques must have bank account that he pays them into.  So there's no good reason why he can't also accept direct credit into his bank account - although it is valid for large organisations to refuse that because of the administrative cost of bank reconciliations. 

 

In the case of payments from a different currency the cost of conversion must be carried by somebody of course, and I would suggest that would probably fall to the customer just as the higher postage cost does.  If we'd stayed in the EU and adopted the Euro, it would be simpler of course...... I think it was Napoleon who said the Brits are a nation of shopkeepers.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I don't mind how NSI send me the money. I just wish that they would send some!

A friend just told me that he received a cheque for a win in Tattslotto (Australia's biggest lottery), for $4.55!

 

Told him that he will be able to buy his wife a coffee while they're out. Should just about cover it!

 

He needs to register his card, then he will get paid out of his next 'donation' and avoid the cheque fee that doubtless exists.

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, WM183 said:

So for those people who would like to buy their products but cannot , because we simply cannot pay by check... what do we do? You're suggesting that they simply don't want our business?

 

Having been in that position but the other way around - UK bank account wanting to buy things from small traders on the continent who would only take a bank transfer (very expensive back then from the UK) or national cheque, I understand your pain*.  The issue is however not that they don't want your business but rather that they don't need your business.  

 

*At the time the SNCF Society as was French Railway Society as it is now known ran a French bank account and would buy things for members to get around some of the problems.

 

Things today are arguably easier (and for me very much easier with accounts in several countries).  Paypal allows small traders to accept orders from all over the world with relatively low charges but if a trader has sufficient business without then he may not bother with the extra administration and cost.  Both may be a distraction from what he enjoys doing - making and selling specialist items.

Credit cards are expensive for small traders and we should not forget that.  The current C19 pandemic and a desire to stop using money - which might be contaminated (seems to be less and less evidence for that as time progresses) - raised the question of whether all traders should accept card payment - preferably contactless.   Even the local baker would accept a card for €1.30 stick of bread now but not this time last year.  But our local market is packed with farming/small holding traders who attend one or two markets per week to sell their goods one selling eggs, another beetroot and potatoes etc..   The cost of renting a card reader would go a long way towards wiping out their profit especially if the minimum rental is 12 months but they might have goods for sale for a small part of the year (fruit growers for example).

Ultimately the problem is that each country has different banking systems, facilities and costs - yes all you UK modellers, here on the continent we pay a monthly fee for our bank accounts.  Exchange rates creates another level of complexity and at a selfish level, the Euro has gone a long way to solving issues like that.  All of these compound to make complex international trading unattractive to the small/hobby trader.  

[kevinlms]

21 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

  The issue is however not that they don't want your business but rather that they don't need your business.  

 

 

Not a question of not 'needing' our business, but more of a little more work is involved, so it's easier for them to say 'comply with our methods of doing business, or don't bother'.

 

Brexit will probably make the problem worse for EU customers, but possibly better for those outside the EU - although I have never had any significant issues with sending anything to Australia.

[TheQ]

I pay out about half a dozen cheques a year from my account, 

MRJ, 2X sailing clubs, and the odd modelling trader. ( one of the sailing clubs should be electronic for the next bill)

I also hold a sailing club account, which I've had great difficulty getting rid of  to the current club official, because the bank keeps changing the requirements. Like at the moment they say it needs two recognised signatures to change over the account... Our club account only has one authorised signature... mine. That account, in a normal year has a dozen checks (plus cash) coming in, race and event  entries, and a couple going out to pay for the event  dinner. I've come to the conclusion that next year once things start opening up, I'm going to with draw the money , and hand the  over the books over letting the account go dormant..

[Mike Bellamy]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 . . .   The cost of renting a card reader would go a long way towards wiping out their profit especially if the minimum rental is 12 months but they might have goods for sale for a small part of the year . . . . . 

 

 

It's no longer necessary to rent a card reader. A trader I have helped at exhibitions was paying about £30 a month for his, but then bought a small hand held card reader for the same one off cost. They are now even cheaper to buy - see 'Sumup' and 'Square' for example. From what I can remember, the percentage charge per transaction was about the same but the funds got to his account a day or two quicker. Paypal has been mentioned several times above - I have just checked and they also offer a card reader with a one off purchase cost.

[Wheatley]

In both cases mentioned above where the traders only take cash or cheque, I believe their ranges are only there at all as an extension of their own modelling requirements i.e. Dave Bradwell had a load of 12ton hoppers to detail so he drew up some bits and had them etched. Neither are relying on the income for survival so if they choose to only accept magic beans over the counter at Scaleforum then so be it. They could just not bother.

 

Masokits takes international bankers drafts but you need to get it right first time off your own bat as he chooses not to mess about sorting out wrong amounts, bank charges etc. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Wheatley

[Guest WM183]

46 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

..if they choose to only accept magic beans over the counter at Scaleforum then so be it. They could just not bother.

 

 

 

What is the exchange rate from EUR to Magic Beans?

[Izzy]

To return to the base question, how does someone in my position pay for/obtain such bits I think the only answer would be if you can find a person willing to purchase on your behalf,  paying them via paypal, but there is still then the issue of getting the bits posted.

 

No easy answers really, it is what it is, and especially when much revolves around small/part time/one man affairs who don't need, want, or can cope with the extra hassle often involved.

 

The big problem is these days that you don't know what size of business you are dealing with when web based, which just helps things along.......

 

Izzy

[Dunsignalling]

18 hours ago, Nile said:

National Savings still send out premium bond winnings in the form of a cheque. I can't remember the last time I used one of my own.

That stops next April. They have been progressively switching to directly crediting bank accounts in advance of the change.

 

I received a request to input details with my most recent £25.

 

John

[KeithMacdonald]

3 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

It's no longer necessary to rent a card reader. A trader I have helped at exhibitions was paying about £30 a month for his, but then bought a small hand held card reader for the same one off cost. They are now even cheaper to buy - see 'Sumup' and 'Square' for example. From what I can remember, the percentage charge per transaction was about the same but the funds got to his account a day or two quicker. Paypal has been mentioned several times above - I have just checked and they also offer a card reader with a one off purchase cost.

 

+1 for using Sumup and Square, we're using both.

 

Sumup is good for in-person payments (cardholder present). The card reader is paired by BlueTooth with a small tablet, which makes it easy for the customer to use. IIRC, the charge is 1.67%.

 

We have found Square is good for cardholder not present, and people from (e.g.) USA and Germany that have trouble paying by IBAN/BACS or would get charged bigger fees elsewhere. Also for sending invoices for payment by card.

 

 

[No Decorum]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Until a fortnight before sterling went decimal in 1971 you had to pay a flat tax of 2d (two old pence) "Stamp Duty" on every cheque you wrote.  This is why many people believed that they had to "buy" a cheque book from their bank for five shillings - they were simply paying this tax…

 

A teacher who knew that my father worked in a bank said in class, “I bought a book in your father’s shop. Very dull book. All the pages were the same.”