Hornby 2021 - P2 new tooling

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, jonnyuk said:

really, you think steam is a gimmick?
all manufacture's are been asked to push the boundaries with detail and features. Hornby have done that with various products/features over the last 12 months but get slammed by a few for doing that, they really can't win. 

 

Does a double or single chimney really make a difference when its going round the layout with steam coming out of it? i think not.

It is a bit, so are headlights. Hornby need to do this to keep up with the likes of Accurascale and Cavalex that are producing models that cheaper and have added features. Then we come to second point, if you all ready have a P2 or Flying Scotsman why would you want to buy another especially when you can probably get the last release second hand. In the case of the 8F a better model. Hornby needs to add these features to persuade you to sell your old version and buy a new one, the same happens in lots of fields. Now it may well be a gimmick but I bet a lot of people didn't notice all the blemishes  with the loco because they were fascinated with the loco producing smoke.

[Johan DC]

‘All the blemishes’ or ‘gaping hole’. Must be me, but I don’t see these. And why would I sell my Lord President, or even CotN, to buy Prince of Wales? 
Some people seem to have a problem with others enjoying their trains. Strange, a hobby is a relaxing thing for me. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

really, you think steam is a gimmick?
all manufacture's are been asked to push the boundaries with detail and features. Hornby have done that with various products/features over the last 12 months but get slammed by a few for doing that, they really can't win. 

 

Does a double or single chimney really make a difference when its going round the layout with steam coming out of it? i think not.

 

Yes, I do think steam is a gimmick - for the simple reason that you cannot scale the laws of physics.

 

Particles of water vapour produced by a miniature vapouriser simply do not, and never can, behave in the same manner as exhaust steam, mixed with combustion products, under pressure.

 

Manufacturers MAY be being asked to produce ever more gimmicks by a certain sector of their customers, but I suspect the real reason is ever more competition in an ever more crowded marketplace. Anything to attract attention to your products.

 

Go to any heritage steam railway were steam locomotives have to work hard, and ask yourself if Hornby's wisps of water vapour in any way reproduce the exhaust of a heavily worked loco at the head of a train.

 

I suppose that, if you cannot discern whether a model loco on a layout has a single or a double chimney, then we are fast heading back to Tri-ang trains, where models of nothing in particular were painted up as a variety of supposed prototypes. Ducking giraffe wagons, anyone?

 

First it was fixed, flangeless trailing truck wheels; now oval single chimneys; I'm sure that I'm not the only one dreading the next compromise on the altar of gimmickry!

 

CJI.

[PeterStiles]

31 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Ducking giraffe wagons, anyone?

Yes please.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, PeterStiles said:

Yes please.

I still have one of those, never got the actuator that sits in the track.

[zr2498]

Just received Earl Marischal DCC ready for a very good price from Bure Valley Models. Running well on DC.

 

 

 

I decided against the DCC sound and steam. The steam generator seems an excellent idea for some fun, but I have a few concerns about the long term effects of condensate on scenery and applied weathering. To me, DCC control with good sound files /quality speaker is more important. I may just fit a decoder for DCC operation in the short term, and then hope that one of the sound supplier experts record the Prince of Wales to install on either an ESU or a Zimo decoder.

 

The new P2 paint finish does seem rather 'flat', so some weathering will be needed.

I did that to the CotN, which I have to say is still an excellent model, and currently is still my favourite. I did have to replace the motor though.

 

Here for comparison.

 

 

Some more shots of the weathering. The application of 'Klear' made all the difference.

 

 

 

[AdamOrmorod]

4 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Just received Earl Marischal DCC ready for a very good price from Bure Valley Models. Running well on DC.

 

 

 

I decided against the DCC sound and steam. The steam generator seems an excellent idea for some fun, but I have a few concerns about the long term effects of condensate on scenery and applied weathering. To me, DCC control with good sound files /quality speaker is more important. I may just fit a decoder for DCC operation in the short term, and then hope that one of the sound supplier experts record the Prince of Wales to install on either an ESU or a Zimo decoder.

 

The new P2 paint finish does seem rather 'flat', so some weathering will be needed.

I did that to the CotN, which I have to say is still an excellent model, and currently is still my favourite. I did have to replace the motor though.

 

Here for comparison.

 

 

Some more shots of the weathering. The application of 'Klear' made all the difference.

 

 

 

The driver's side slidebars on 2001 look like they could do with pushing back in to place! Lovely weathering though, and good job of disguising the plastic coal.

[zr2498]

39 minutes ago, AdamOrmorod said:

The driver's side slidebars on 2001 look like they could do with pushing back in to place! Lovely weathering though, and good job of disguising the plastic coal.

Thanks @AdamOrmorod. Fixed and tested OK. The slide bar needed freeing up and lubricating.

[Ollie K]

6 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Some more shots of the weathering. The application of 'Klear' made all the difference.

 

 

 

Great finish on what was at source a rather flat interpretation of LNER apple green. Is that the ‘original’ Klear, or the new white bottle stuff? And do you recall how many coats?

I’ve dabbled before but not achieved such a strong lustre as your fine efforts here.

 

Cheers.

[zr2498]

1 hour ago, Ollie K said:

Great finish on what was at source a rather flat interpretation of LNER apple green. Is that the ‘original’ Klear, or the new white bottle stuff? And do you recall how many coats?

I’ve dabbled before but not achieved such a strong lustre as your fine efforts here.

 

Cheers.

The Klear original was replaced with Pledge revive it floor gloss, that is a clear gloss.

This is the stuff but it's been a while since I ordered some.

 

 

This question has come up on RMWeb before, and I am not sure what the equivalent would be now as this does not seem to be available. Some more research needed.

The weathering on the CotN had over 25 stages to achieve the finish, the idea being to be 'in service but well maintained and cleaned / polished'. The Klear cote was done once over the loco body and tender sides, and a second coat only applied over the lower half of the loco boiler.

If / when I weather the Earl, I will record and photo the steps for input to a thread at some stage.

 

This might be the same stuff as Klear (claimed), but it needs to be tested by brush coating and via airbrush.

 

Edited March 27 by zr2498
Extra info added - possible equivalent

[Johan DC]

I use the Humbrol-copy Clear. While I'm not a fan of the matt version, the gloss Clear paints and sprays well, and if you use it in a lot of layers, gives a nice dept.

 

[That Model Railway Guy]

I finally had a chance to get my steam generator fitted P2 running on the layout last weekend so here's a review of the loco plus some footage of it in action for anyone that might still be on the fence about these.

 

Skip to 10:38 to see how the steam generator works.

Skip to 15:50 if you want to see the model running on a layout (with sound and steam).

 

 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

I finally had a chance to get my steam generator fitted P2 running on the layout last weekend so here's a review of the loco plus some footage of it in action for anyone that might still be on the fence about these.

 

Skip to 10:38 to see how the steam generator works.

Skip to 15:50 if you want to see the model running on a layout (with sound and steam).

 

 

 

Thank you for this; a very useful assessment.

 

I don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of this new development, so what follows is definitely my PERSONAL view.

 

Steam is a state of existence of water - its behaviour in our atmosphere is controlled by many factors - NONE OF WHICH CAN BE SCALED!

 

Whilst Hornby are to be congratulated for what they have achieved, I would stick my neck out and say that miniature steam generators will NEVER be able produce an effect that mimics the behaviour of smoke and steam when emitted by a steam locomotive.

 

The laws of science simply dictate that what comes out of the P2 funnel resembles what comes out of the spout of a kettle, as opposed to a steam loco.

 

For instance, a steam locomotive, standing at rest in a siding, emits lazy curls of, mostly, smoke - not the abrupt on / off spurt of steam, which is evident in the first layout shots in the video.

 

I could go on, ad infinitum, but it all comes down to the physical behaviour of tiny quantities of water vapour as opposed to large volumes of smoke and steam.

 

CJI.

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Thank you for this; a very useful assessment.

 

I don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of this new development, so what follows is definitely my PERSONAL view.

 

Steam is a state of existence of water - its behaviour in our atmosphere is controlled by many factors - NONE OF WHICH CAN BE SCALED!

 

Whilst Hornby are to be congratulated for what they have achieved, I would stick my neck out and say that miniature steam generators will NEVER be able produce an effect that mimics the behaviour of smoke and steam when emitted by a steam locomotive.

 

The laws of science simply dictate that what comes out of the P2 funnel resembles what comes out of the spout of a kettle, as opposed to a steam loco.

 

For instance, a steam locomotive, standing at rest in a siding, emits lazy curls of, mostly, smoke - not the abrupt on / off spurt of steam, which is evident in the first layout shots in the video.

 

I could go on, ad infinitum, but it all comes down to the physical behaviour of tiny quantities of water vapour as opposed to large volumes of smoke and steam.

 

CJI.

I appreciate your opinion, and get what you’re meaning. For me, it’s just the other way around, a steam loco with steam, even fake, is much more ‘real’ to me. I’ve always felt so, from a child on, my fathers LGB steamer with, were always my favourites. When I converted a plastic model a Flower corvette to RC, I included a Seuthe. 
Model railways are always a fine balance between trade-offs and personal preference. I almost didn’t start in OO because of the wrong gauge, but other railways just didn’t had that high appeal. For me, fake steam wins over no steam. So I’m waiting with impatience on my PoW/Highland Chieftain and pre-ordered a generator-fitted Earl Marichal. 
You’re not spoiling my enjoyment, I agree with your arguments. I’ll just gonna (politely) ignore them and play with my electrical driven steam engines that emit water vapor. 

[E100]

Looks quite good to me with the steam effect but it is a shame about the double chimney needing to be swapped. Anyone given it a try with the more accurate one in regardless?

[Johan DC]

Just now, E100 said:

Looks quite good to me with the steam effect but it is a shame about the double chimney needing to be swapped. Anyone given it a try with the more accurate one in regardless?

Mine is at Neville Grove for renaming and weathering, when it arrives in Belgium I'll look into it, I have some ideas about making a double chimney myself. 

[rogerzilla]

On 26/03/2024 at 14:32, cctransuk said:

 

First it was fixed, flangeless trailing truck wheels

To be fair to Hornby, a swivelling rear axle would be just as wrong as flangeless wheels.  A Cartazzi axle has sideways movement (and self-centres using the loco weight), but it doesn't swivel.

 

The average model coach or loco bogie doesn't work like a real bogie, either.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

To be fair to Hornby, a swivelling rear axle would be just as wrong as flangeless wheels.  A Cartazzi axle has sideways movement (and self-centres using the loco weight), but it doesn't swivel.

 

The average model coach or loco bogie doesn't work like a real bogie, either.

 

If you re-read my post, I did not propose a swivelling rear axle - I said "fixed, flangeless trailing truck WHEELS".

 

I would be quite happy with an alternative rear axle with flanges, sitting in a slot in the mainframes.I

 

CJI.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I would be quite happy with an alternative rear axle with flanges, sitting in a slot in the mainframes

Thus far all my Hornby wide firebox purchases have come with alternative flanged wheelsets. What Hornby haven't done is made any serious provision for mounting these, and in one case they would not fit at all. But with more or less hacking it has been possible to use these wheelsets for a good running result, on my 30" minimum radius layout.

 

However. Bachmann have now demonstrated a much superior technique on their V2, and I expect this standard from now on, or no purchase. (I can safely write that because I have the full squadron of Doncaster wide firebox classes I require, and we are never going to see a RTR P1...)

[rogerzilla]

I don't think typical model railway curves permit any kind of sliding axle like the prototype had, since the truck is outside-framed.  R2 on OO is a 36.5 yard curve, and the tightest curve the new build P2 will negotiate is 125 yards - dead slow.

 

So you need flangeless wheels (wrong) or a swivelling pony truck (also wrong).

[cctransuk]

39 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

I don't think typical model railway curves permit any kind of sliding axle like the prototype had, since the truck is outside-framed.  R2 on OO is a 36.5 yard curve, and the tightest curve the new build P2 will negotiate is 125 yards - dead slow.

 

So you need flangeless wheels (wrong) or a swivelling pony truck (also wrong).

 

Read the post above yours - re fitting flanged wheels for 30" radii. It is clearly possible; Hornby simply don't choose to do so.

 

CJI.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Had a few layout issues but finally got them solved allowing for a proper full length railtour with the P2 steam gen. Even if it’s not the most realistic it certainly adds an element of immersion. It did struggle around some of the curves tho hence the 67 at the rear

 

 

 

[rogerzilla]

17 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Read the post above yours - re fitting flanged wheels for 30" radii. It is clearly possible; Hornby simply don't choose to do so.

 

CJI.

Don't they include them in the box?  They usually do for their Pacific locos with the same rear truck, although few people can use them except for display purposes

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Don't they include them in the box?  They usually do for their Pacific locos with the same rear truck, although few people can use them except for display purposes

 

Please read previous posts; they may provide the wheels, but it's not possible to use them on 30" radii without modifying the model - which should not be necessary.

 

 CJI.

[E100]

 

Steam and the proper chimney fitted!