Accurascale's First Steam Locomotive; GWR Collett 78xx Manor Class!

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, maico said:

I expect he knows a lot more about model railway CAD design and resin printing than most on the forum...

100% more than me

But you need to produce convincing prints to say you can challenge someone like Rapido

I've got a wagon body in front of me and it looks as good as his, however it was injection moulded 60 years ago🙂

 

If you want to spend only £10 on a new wagon why not get one of these:

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 03/09/2023 at 17:04, IOW O2 said:

I do wonder if weight does make much difference...

It is not the sole factor, even if dealing with an all wheels driven loco such as a tank engine. For models the main factors are

Coefficient of friction between driven wheel tyres and rail materials.

Weight on the driven wheels.

Centre of balance (ideally centred within the driven wheelbase).

 

As soon as unpowered wheels are added, the drag these impose subtracts from the traction available from the above three factors - they are effectively part of the train load.

 

You can gauge these effects by operating locos without carrying wheels or tenders (as applicable) to assess the losses from these items.

 

Heavier than necessary tenders with wiper pick ups are often the principal reason why your mighty express loco can only manage a third the load of an 0-6-0 shunter.

[Captain Kernow]

On 05/09/2023 at 15:04, Moley48 said:

3d printing is so accessible

if you are prepared to learn a new skill. It's not difficult

 

It's all easy stuff

It's just another avenue of model creation to go down. 

I wasn't going to bite, but I will anyway.

 

You may well find it 'easy', 'not difficult' etc., but for some of us, any kind of computer software that goes beyond the very basics of Microsoft Word is an inaccessible country. As far as I am concerned, it's an 'avenue of model creation' that has a 'No Entry' sign at the entrance.

 

And yes, I am at the older end of the spectrum. I'm sure there are some 'old dogs' out there, who are capable and willing to learn new tricks, but there are equally some who cannot (and not for want of trying at one time, either). I am also very happy to buy the products of such new technology from those that do it commercially, just as I was when etched brass kits started appearing.

 

I'm sure you and others who are expert in this new technology enjoy what you do and I certainly am prepared to admire the results of your labours, but to glibly say that such technology is 'accessible and easy' is certainly not the case for many of us.

 

I might as well try learning how to design and build a new Hadron Collider...

 

[melmerby]

17 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I might as well try learning how to design and build a new Hadron Collider...

I'm doing that right now, just need a good supply of empty drinks bottles, yoghurt cartons and sticky back plastic.................🙂

[melmerby]

On 05/09/2023 at 15:04, Moley48 said:

It's all easy stuff with plenty of knowledge on the subject available

I suspect the Captain, like myself, finds time is the enemy these days.

Despite being nearer to 80 than 70, learning new skills is not beyond me but the time to do so is scarce.☹️

I've played with CAD in the past but have forgotten everything I learnt, so it would be all new.

 

I'm quite prepared to build electronic modules (for my railway) and find it easy having been doing it since before I left school more than 60 years ago, when semiconductors never had more than 3 connections and 99% electronics was using valves.

Edited September 6, 2023 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

As this thread is [supposed to be] about 'Manors' and I know far more about them than I'm ever likely to know about 3-D printing, as I actually saw all of them in traffic,  rode behind a fair number of them in BR days, and ... ... so on,   I thought it might be nice to move towards the arrival of black livery with the photo below.

 

So here we have 7814 on shed at Newton Abbot in 1958 - it's last year there.  Captured by my dad from a droplight of a Down  train standing at the station while we were on our way to stay with relatives in Plymouth.  Engine and tender are in a fairly good state of cleanliness with evidence of recent Cleaners' attention although there is slight hint of the results of an oil leak below the oil pipe cover between the boiler cladding and the smokebox.   Livery appears to be plain black although red lining might well have not shown up well on the film used.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[melmerby]

Red backed number plate - possible? It looks lighter than the cab side sheet

[Miss Prism]

7814 at about the same time, and I think confirming plain black:

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Collett-Locomotives/Collett-460-designs/Collett-Manor-Class-78007829/Manor-Class-Pre-1968/78127819-Built-1939/i-gLMxDdb/A

 

[Michael Hodgson]

20 hours ago, melmerby said:

100% more than me

But you need to produce convincing prints to say you can challenge someone like Rapido

I've got a wagon body in front of me and it looks as good as his, however it was injection moulded 60 years ago🙂

 

If you want to spend only £10 on a new wagon why not get one of these:

 

To be fair to Sam, he didn't produce a generic mineral wagon, it was an SECR one pretty close to the Rapido one apart from the chassis which he hadn't really got round to doing the artwork for - yet. 

 

I would take issues with his economics however.  3D printers aren't exactly cheap, and he doesn't appear to have factored in the wear and tear/depreciation of his machine - but the manufacturers have to cover their equivalent of that cost into their pricing policy.  So I believe it cost him more than any tenner.  That said, once you have made the investment, you can run off a lot, although with his approach to lettering they would all have the same running number unless he made a customised stencil for each one,

 

He didn't explain what he spent on making the jigs and painting stencils he used.  The stencil let him down, particularly when he used digits with a hollow middle even though it did a better job of masking than I would have expected.  I suppose he could have done better by choosing different running numbers.  Or used transfers.

 

As others have said, advancing years tend to inhibit the inclination to learn new tricks.  I am old enough to have been an undergraduate the first year my university offered computer science as a subject.  There were three of us (and one post-grad) that year so we didn't go to lecture theatres - we used a small office!  And I've worked in one aspect or another of IT for most of my working life.  So I'm not afraid of the technology.  However I do see a significant learning curve (there is always one with any CAD package, and it is clear from other threads that the printers themselves have even bigger issues that need to be mastered.  You only have to look at the way some models have to be printed on the slant with sacrificial supporting scaffolding.

 

Whilst his approach may allow him to produce a big rake of fairly simple open wagons a lot more cheaply than the trade, a complex steam loco is a different kettle of fish.  For wagons you can simply keep turning the handle and print off a whole trainload, but you don't get that economy of scale with a loco where you only want one or or two any particular prototype.  And you probably won't want it to have 3d printed Walshaerts gear either.

 

So whilst I am very impressed with what can be done, unfortunately I do see it as something I'm not prepared to put the time and effort into at my age, nor of course the capital cost of a good quality printer.  If this had come along 20 years ago it would have been a very different matter.

[The Stationmaster]

Looks like we need another hint - athough not black in this case.  A  view I got of Reading's 7808 on an LCGB rail tour, Platform 4 Reading 1963.

 

[Harlequin]

Whether you get into CAD and 3D printing is a personal thing. You are either willing and happy to pick it up and learn how to do it or you feel it's a step too far for you. That's fine.

 

Neither position is "wrong" but I feel that 3D printing is going to become a big part of the hobby. There's no denying that there are some dark arts to it at the moment but the technology will improve and it will get easier.

 

If it's not for you, don't feel excluded or threatened. Talk to those of us who have picked it up and we can help you model the things you never dreamt were possible! This is a big community and we're all here to help each other. 😊

 

P.S. 3D printers are really not that expensive. Around £150-£300 will get you a good resin printer. Comparable to the cost of a current loco.

 

(Sorry Mike, Back to the prototype Manors.)

 

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I suspect the Captain, like myself, finds time is the enemy these days.

Indeed, 'Time and Motion wait for no man'...

 

And now for a comment that perhaps is a little harsh....

 

I was looking at a review of the Dapol Manor in a recent issue of BRM today and it got me thinking, how could anyone prefer one of them over the Accurascale one? Dare I say it, the Dapol one even looked a little 'toy like'...

 

Not a dig at Dapol per se, they have some fine products in their range and I have some of them myself.

 

But the Accurascale Manor just looks right, without even having to lift a finger to do so...

 

However, back to the old enemy, 'time'. Do I spend the time that it would take to convert mine to P4...?

 

[Haverail]

Did anyone get to the bottom of the Bradley Manor issues with Key? I like the idea of limited editions but it seems that there can be risks particularly if dealing with companies/oorganisations whose main business is not retail selling.

[Moley48]

Sorry Captain Kernow and melmerby. My post was a little insensitive..   and Captain, I fully agree with the proportions on the AS Manor they really shine in that department. 

 

.....and now for something Manor related.   This must have been early nineties at didcot. Gives away my age a little.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  We could have looked happier I know.. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Moley48

[didcot]

4 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

I might as well try learning how to design and build a new Hadron Collider

Funny you should say that. My day job is spent working on another Synchrotron and I can say that proper CAD design, be that 3D or 2D takes a lot of learning.

[didcot]

1 hour ago, Moley48 said:

and now for something Manor related.   This must have been early nineties at didcot. Gives away my age a little.

I made the assumption that the Steam in your photo came from 7808, but probably from another loco.

Edited September 6, 2023 by didcot
Not reading the post properly!

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

7814 at about the same time, and I think confirming plain black:

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Collett-Locomotives/Collett-460-designs/Collett-Manor-Class-78007829/Manor-Class-Pre-1968/78127819-Built-1939/i-gLMxDdb/A

 

Brilliant - those coal lumps are huge so I dont need to redo my recent one afterall!

 

Lined tender would also be the smaller size crest i think?

[didcot]

It's a real shame 7808 hasn't returned to steam since the early 80's. It must be the only Manor to have spent that much time side lined. I remember it on the Vintage train, but must have been almost out of ticket when I did my volunteering stint from the early 80s to the early 90s and was only 11 when I started. 

[Moley48]

31 minutes ago, didcot said:

I made the assumption that the Steam in your photo came from 7808, but probably from another loco.

 

Thats ok. However I think the bottom pic was 1994 or slightly earlier. The top pic I've just realised is from a batch of photos when I was about 7 or 8 which would be 89/90..

 

I loved visiting Didcot as a kid. Different times even then.  Burton agnes Hall, Duke and always said hello to Bonnie prince charlie :)  My dad is the real railway guy. His dad was a signalman at gleneagles and lived in a house right at the station for about 5yrs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Moley48

[didcot]

Thanks @Moley48. Your top pic looks like it was taken down by the turntable. 

I do remember some joker making a large clockwork key that was placed in the filler cap of Bonnie Prince Charlie.

I remember Burton Agnes Hall doing Oxford shuttles must have been 86/87. I got to drive Iron Duke in August 87 before I started my apprenticeship. I still live within earshot. 

[MikeParkin65]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Indeed, 'Time and Motion wait for no man'...

 

And now for a comment that perhaps is a little harsh....

 

I was looking at a review of the Dapol Manor in a recent issue of BRM today and it got me thinking, how could anyone prefer one of them over the Accurascale one? Dare I say it, the Dapol one even looked a little 'toy like'...

 

Not a dig at Dapol per se, they have some fine products in their range and I have some of them myself.

 

But the Accurascale Manor just looks right, without even having to lift a finger to do so...

 

However, back to the old enemy, 'time'. Do I spend the time that it would take to convert mine to P4...?

 

By virtue of the fact that we are all here on the AS Manor thread and I think many of us have one it’s pretty much a given that we find the AS Manor superior.
 

The AS version is  undoubtedly superior is but it would be a mistake to think of the Dapol Manor as a bad or even ‘ toy like’ model - it isn’t. The Dapol model looks a lot better in real life. It doesn’t photograph well and I think a lot of that is down to finish which is very matte and emphasises the plastic construction. The BR green is ‘off’ in the way of most Hornby. Contrary to Sams Trains view I think the metal effect safety valve looks naff (and I said this when AS were considering doing the same) I think the dimensional issues are minor and are exaggerated in photos  - again ‘in the flesh’ it looks fine. I recall seeing a TMC varnished and weathered version at Warley and thinking if I hadn’t got the Accurascale version on order I’d probably have one.  
 

AS have certainly produced the better 4mm Manor but the the Dapol version is a worthy alternative and I wouldn’t worry about buying one if circumstances so construed. 

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Lined tender would also be the smaller size crest i think?

 

For lined Churchward 3500g, crests (both early and late) had to be small. Intermediates and Collett 3500g had taller bodies, and it seems crests were not size-restricted, but late crests tended to be small I think.

 

Manor tender options:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/152139-manor-announced-for-00/?do=findComment&comment=3860309

 

 

[melmoth]

6 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

I might as well try learning how to design and build a new Hadron Collider...

 

 

Not needed Captain, I have reason to believe* that NuCast Partners are bringing out a revised version with a new etched chassis to replace the depleted uranium block provided with the original Cotswold kit - which as we all know was impossible to get running true, particularly in P4

 

*no I don't, not at all

[Cofga]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Looks like we need another hint - athough not black in this case.  A  view I got of Reading's 7808 on an LCGB rail tour, Platform 4 Reading 1963.

 

Those rivets look way oversized compared to the Dapol model, has it been Photoshopped?

 

In all seriousness how close to scale are the Accurascale and Dapol models with respect to the buffer beam rivets? There really seems to be a stark disparity between the models.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Cofga

[Clearwater]

I've taken some (camera phone) pictures of the Dapol and Accurascale side by side.  I think there are some parallax / lens distortion issues going on in some of the shorts and I've not done this too scientifically.  For me the points that stand out:

1) The difference in the greens - Accurascale is definitely richer; Dapol looks more like a Hornby green (I've taken below with them both ways around)

2) The shininess of the Dapol safety valve stands out to me - again I prefer Accurascale

3) The Dapol firebox looks a touch fatter and a less smooth transition from firebox to boiler barrel

4) It feels like the Dapol model is a smidgen longer - I doubt noticeable at any normal range.

 

Personally I prefer the Accurascale one however I was also keen to support Dapol.  If we want more RTR goodies, we have to give manufacturers a reason to keep making them!

 

David