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RevolutioN Trains Announce First Locomotive in OO Gauge the Class 93

sc2016

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Peter749

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On 04/08/2023 at 20:55, TomScrut said:

I aren't sure why anyone (other than DRS perhaps) would want 88s when there's improved figures in the 93.

 

Especially given the 88 won't be a lot of use for a passenger service on its engine (and so why have it at all).

It depends if you treat the 88 as a ED or an Electric with limited off wire use.

 

Just recently some of the Electric Only 9 Car Azumas worked between York and Darlington running just on the single diesel engine to get round an OHLE problem.

 

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TomScrut

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8 minutes ago, Peter749 said:

It depends if you treat the 88 as a ED or an Electric with limited off wire use.

 

Just recently some of the Electric Only 9 Car Azumas worked between York and Darlington running just on the single diesel engine to get round an OHLE problem.

 

But given both designs now exist; for what I expect will be a minor cost difference in the grand scheme of ordering locomotives (especially given only DRS could order an 88 as is anyway, it's their front end)  why wall oneself into the inflexibility? It would be interesting to know if DRS would have had the 93s specs if they had been available then.

 

The context was for passenger use and whilst yes there is a reason the 801s have an engine, there's also a reason why the 803s have batteries. The 93 has both.

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MarshLane

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On 06/08/2023 at 14:39, TomScrut said:

But given both designs now exist; for what I expect will be a minor cost difference in the grand scheme of ordering locomotives (especially given only DRS could order an 88 as is anyway, it's their front end)  why wall oneself into the inflexibility? It would be interesting to know if DRS would have had the 93s specs if they had been available then.

 

The context was for passenger use and whilst yes there is a reason the 801s have an engine, there's also a reason why the 803s have batteries. The 93 has both.

 

Also if an 88 was ordered now, it would use a 93 bodyshell, not the existing 88 design.

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jpendle

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The only company that can order a CL88, or CL68 for that matter, is DRS, as they own the design rights to the cab.

 

So if DRS wanted more Stadler Electrics they would have a choice between CL88 or CL93. If they really wanted, they could have Stadler re-do the CL93 with a DRS cab (CL98?), but why bother?

 

Regards,

 

John P

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adb968008

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15 hours ago, jpendle said:

The only company that can order a CL88, or CL68 for that matter, is DRS, as they own the design rights to the cab.

 

So if DRS wanted more Stadler Electrics they would have a choice between CL88 or CL93. If they really wanted, they could have Stadler re-do the CL93 with a DRS cab (CL98?), but why bother?

 

Regards,

 

John P

The offering is a catalog offer of “light” type locos, offered to a territory ie Eurolight, UKlight etc.

The spec is tailoured to the buyer.


for example, in Spain, Stadler just made 22 ‘class 68’ which is the UKlight spec for UK gauge, for operator Adif.

 

https://www.railvolution.net/news/first-eurolight-for-adif
 

basically a class 68 but with a standard stadler cab (like the 93). The give away of Uk spec to Euro spec is the towed in profile below buffer beam level and tapered / lower roof.

 

In theory these could go for approval to run in the UK, as could another operator buy more of them from Stadler.


 

The 88 is a Stadler Dual.. of which theres UKDual (class 88) as well as EuroDual which is in use in Europe for various operators and still in construction, then theres the AfroDual which at 8 years old is subject to an unbelievable “only in africa” drama which will probably never see these delivered, and the “Afro 4000” series accompanying them went to Tanzania, brand new for just a few £10’sk from South Africa, after spending hundreds of millions, in a corruption case involving a fake CME, corrupt government officials, a sham contract and a front company with dodgy money trails all over the place. The Afro 4000 scam was only uncovered when the locos arrived, and were out of gauge (being Euro spec not UK spec) and banned from use… though it didnt stop one being written off in a crash… only in Africa.

 

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TomScrut

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11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

for example, in Spain, Stadler just made 22 ‘class 68’ which is the UKlight spec for UK gauge, for operator Adif.

 

That's interesting, why do they want/need the UK gauging? Or is it that they are cheaper being smaller?

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newbryford

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1 minute ago, TomScrut said:

 

That's interesting, why do they want/need the UK gauging? Or is it that they are cheaper being smaller?

 

Future proofing them for use in the UK in a later life?

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adb968008

adb968008

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32 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

That's interesting, why do they want/need the UK gauging? Or is it that they are cheaper being smaller?

I’m not understanding why they are needed at all

22 locos bought for “rescue” work of failed trains & infrastructure work.

 

Imagine an order like that from Network Rail in this country.

 

That may also be the reason, if production lines are geared up to class 93 and 99, the price may have been attractive to offer UK spec, instead of resetting the production line ?


Various other groups suggest the South America spec 4000’s were uncompleted Afro4000 shells from the PRASA fiasco that were unfinished. But theres still 3 Duals and 7x 4000’s finished in Spain, never shipped to South Africa… about 8 years now.

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Legend

Legend

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10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It seems to be taking a long time for 93001 to break cover on the network.

Unless the delivery schedule in Rail was wrong, they are pretty much all supposed to be here now.

 

Lack of things to do with them perhaps ?

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MarshLane

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On 09/08/2023 at 15:37, TomScrut said:

 

Even if DRS ordered it?

 

Tom, sorry for some reason rmWeb didn't flag up that there had been a post on this thread, so I missed it!  Yes I understand that Stadler do not have the design rights to use the '68/88' style cab which is a Vossloh copyright.

 

On 09/08/2023 at 17:32, jpendle said:

The only company that can order a CL88, or CL68 for that matter, is DRS, as they own the design rights to the cab.

 

So if DRS wanted more Stadler Electrics they would have a choice between CL88 or CL93. If they really wanted, they could have Stadler re-do the CL93 with a DRS cab (CL98?), but why bother?

John P

 

John, unless you know something I dont (which is feasible!!), while DRS have rights to the tech spec and design, the cab and intellectual property (IP) on the 'look' including the cab design is Vossloh. So my understanding from a Stadler source is that no more locos could be built with the '68/88' style cab, as Stalder do not have the rights to use it, such IP was not included in the sale.  I suppose there is nothing to stop Stadler going to Vossloh, requesting and paying to use it, but I my source was very clear that  any further 68 or 88 acquisitions would need a new cab design (or use the 93, as that is a Stadler design). After all why would a manufacture want their products to look like somebody else's?  From a DRS point of view, the whole 'would it be worth it' quandary, could come down to whether a new external cab design could need re-certification and validation etc.  It depends how far such a change would go.

 

On 12/10/2023 at 09:18, adb968008 said:

It seems to be taking a long time for 93001 to break cover on the network.

Unless the delivery schedule in Rail was wrong, they are pretty much all supposed to be here now.

 

Some minor issues with electrical testing have flagged up, which have now been traced to an issue with the OHL power source I gather, rather than the locos.  93001 should start WCML testing in November now.  In terms of delivery, because the testing has been pushed back, I gather the delivery schedule has altered.

 

On 12/10/2023 at 09:29, Legend said:

Lack of things to do with them perhaps ?

 

Nope, all 10 are allocated to traffic from next year, 2 with ROG once mainline certification is valid, the other 8 with an external operator, but I can't say who!  Only that they are required from June (I think) next year.  Likely hood is that the eight will also have the Dellner couplers removed, as they won't be needed for stock movements.

 

On 12/10/2023 at 16:25, The Meerkat said:

don't they need testing over here?

 

Yes 93001 has dynamic testing to be done on the WCML overnight for a few weeks to finalise the certification.  Then it's probably two months for ORR to review all the paperwork and (hopefully!) grant the certification. With testing originally expected in September, it was hoped that certification would be granted just before Christmas, so I am expecting now that the hope is main line certificatio from February 2024, assuming no problems.  But once they have certification there will be a number of runs on the WCML and ECML on diesel and electric, for crew training - the 93 is a VERY different beast to a 37.  Depending on where the fleet is based, which has not yet been decided (there are four companies in the running for that), could dictate whether more of those runs are West Coast or East Coast based.  They will likely be with Mk3 stock in tow, to provide some train weight and train handling experience.

 

On 12/10/2023 at 19:00, Revolution Mike said:

IIRC 93002 is on test and I think it is then coming over to the UK once various acceptance tests have been finished.

Cheers Mike

 

Yes, 93002 will be the last to be delivered, as it has to go back to Spain for mods.  Basically to remove all the various testing equipment and make it the same as the rest of the fleet.

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MarshLane

MarshLane

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks a very informative update, appreciated!

No problem - I should have added, that like all projects with new rolling stock, things keep moving and the number on the dice changes with each shake, so timescales could move forward or backwards as things develop!  I am looking forward to the Revolution 93 ... may even have to get one for the cabinet!

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