Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[Oldddudders]

If the UK gutter press is to be believed, over here that would be an aphrodisiac......

[Steamport Southport]

Off to the Tower....

 

[Halvarras]

12 hours ago, George Spencer said:

Incidentally, it appears that the "worst cold ever" is going round. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-58624295

 

 

A year and a half of Immune system-suppressing mask wearing + social distancing = totally expected.

[hayfield]

A very interesting report in the Daily Telegraph today quoting a source from The World Health Origination by their science editor

 

Chinese (Wuhan) and US scientists were planning to create a new Covid virus which did not exist in nature before by combining the genetic codes of different viruses 

 

A genetics expert from the WHO stated that if Sars- CoV 2 virus was made this way, it explains why the WHO cannot find a close match naturally occurring

 

It has been published before that the US was planning a joint venture with China long before the pandemic had started and that the Wuhan labs were studying Covid viruses

 

I guess now over time we will be drip fed more and more information about the origins of this disaster, and if anything good can come out of it the world may be better prepared for the next virus to emerge

 

In a separate article the Sun brings up the fact that 5m doses of vaccine due for UK consumption was diverted into the EU stocks, probably an old story and part of the bartering process which went on and only worth a quick glance 

[APOLLO]

Nowt good comes out of China these days - except our model trains !!!!!

 

Look at Aussie news reports on Youtube to see what they think - eye opener.

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

Anyone else seen Prof Spector’s video issued today? He really is quite angry with HMG’s approach to Covid right now.

[John M Upton]

The Goverment still have an approach to Covid?  From what I have seen lately, they seem to have given up, brushed it under the carpet and are now too busy congratulating themselves.

[Torper]

Just over a fortnight ago on a bright sunny day I was sitting in the open air at a village event having a couple of beers with a friend.  It was a convivial and happy occasion.  Then six days later I heard that Covid had found my friend and he'd been rushed into hospital.   Last night I heard he'd died.

 

Covid hasn't gone away.  My friend had been vaccinated twice, but Covid didn't care about that.  Instead Covid preyed on his underlying health condition  My friend fought hard.  Confined in an oxygen tent he wasn't able to see his wife and family, but it wasn't looking too bad - he was improving slightly but it would be a long haul.  But then, as so often seems to happen, just when things were looking up, Covid was just too strong for him and it took him. 

 

So please, don't drop your guard.  You may not have an underlying condition and you may feel safe.  But Covid didn't jump on my friend from nowhere.  Someone, somwhere, passed it on to him, not maliciously, not with intent, but perhaps carelessly, thinking there was no more need for precaution.  I do hope that that's not the message people are now getting from the Government, but I very much fear that it is.

 

DT

[Nearholmer]

8 hours ago, John M Upton said:

The Goverment still have an approach to Covid? 

I think they do, but I also think they aren’t saying overtly what it amounts to, because it has a dark side that would clash with the “everything is on the up-and-up” message that is clearly favoured.

 

The approach seems to be to rely completely on vaccination in order to limit numbers needing hospital treatment, and ……. er…….. that’s it!

 

The effect of that is to allow/cause pretty much un-controlled spread among those who are not vaccinated, which despite all the positivity, is still a heck of a lot of people, something like 20 Million across the U.K. Now, most of that 20 Million are children, teenagers, and adults <40yo, so by-and-large don’t suffer too badly when they catch it, but it means that everyone is unwittingly going about in what might be described as “a steady drizzle of covid”. If ever there was a time when anyone who has the slightest vulnerability by reason of age or otherwise needed to be very cautious, it is now.

 

If you look at the “exhibitions” thread, you will get a flavour of what I think is a very widespread attitude: a great many people value the ability to do ordinary things, in the ordinary way, without the slightest precaution, and are either genuinely ignorant of the continuing Covid risk to others, or don’t give a monkey’s about it, provided they are individually alright.

 

So, in a nutshell, HMG’s approach is working: hospitals can just about cope with the rate of Covid patients arriving; schools are just about managing to remain open; and, the great majority of the population can safely and happily get on with their lives with zero precautions. It’s a populist approach, which keeps the majority happy, while turning a blind eye to the impact on the minority.

 

The big missing component IMO is honesty, in that all this ought to come with very loud and clear warnings along the lines: if you are  over about 70yo, or have any kind of underlying health condition that makes you vulnerable to Covid, you need to be very careful right now, even if you have been vaccinated. But, warnings like that really would clash with the positive razzmatazz.

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

I had my second vaccination on 17/05 and I no longer have antibodies, I’m part of the ONS study and after the most recent blood test they are gone. My wife who had her second vaccination the week after me still has antibodies. No idea about T cells as that isn’t part of the study.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

The big missing component IMO is honesty, in that all this ought to come with very loud and clear warnings along the lines: if you are  over about 70yo, or have any kind of underlying health condition that makes you vulnerable to Covid, you need to be very careful right now, even if you have been vaccinated. But, warnings like that really would clash with the positive razzmatazz.

 

At one time the message was no one is protected until everyone is protected. There was a view that this illness would be irradiated. That is not the case now its realised we have to live with it rather like we do with influenza

 

I don't think they have forgotten about it, rather the opposite. Children now are being vaccinated at a much younger age and tests are ongoing on even younger children. Boosters are now starting for many of the population and new drugs and treatments are regularly being introduced. Then covid information is released daily. Hospitalizations are thankfully reducing, but those dying after testing positive within 28 days are still quite high

 

Clearly for the government and our health system covid is an issue and will be. But we are in the period where society is finding its new normal. We have had friends who have caught covid recently (including my wife's parents who are 90) thankfully all got better. However the past 4 weeks has seen one relation and 3 friends pass away, none covid related 2 to cancer and 2 from old age related issues

 

 

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The big missing component IMO is honesty, in that all this ought to come with very loud and clear warnings along the lines: if you are  over about 70yo, or have any kind of underlying health condition that makes you vulnerable to Covid, you need to be very careful right now, even if you have been vaccinated. But, warnings like that really would clash with the positive razzmatazz.

 

The same applies to Flu, which hasn't gone away, if you look at figures before Covid those were exactly the people that were most at risk. Those same people are now being offered Covid booster jabs as well as flu jabs. As John says the Gov are trying to get Society back to some sort of normality, those at risk are getting vaccinated, and people are still being reminded of the risk (despite what you have said), but perhaps not at the same level as before. Those of us at risk of something, whether that be flu or Covid or any other virus/allergy, already take precautions, all that's happened is that Covid has been added to that list, then it's down to the individual how they live their lives. Time to take responsibility again for how we live our lives?

Edited October 7, 2021 by Hobby

[Nearholmer]

People can’t properly make decisions about how they live their lives if they aren’t given appropriate warnings.

 

I must be blind and deaf, because I am neither seeing nor hearing any clear message that the old and otherwise vulnerable need to be bl00dy careful at the moment, and certainly no message that others need to act to protect them.

 

Now, that might be because I’m not in the ‘target audience’, being in my early 60s and (pending the findings of a visit to the cardiologist tomorrow!) reasonably fit. But, I don’t think so.

 

I think HMG is very happy for ‘incautious feel good’ to pervade, rather than a bit of sensible caution, just right now.

 

You will notice how vaccination rates among <40yo are stubbornly stuck with c1:3 not vaccinated. That isn’t the case in other countries where the governments have continued to sound appropriate notes of caution.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Torper]

42 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

I had my second vaccination on 17/05 and I no longer have antibodies, I’m part of the ONS study and after the most recent blood test they are gone. My wife who had her second vaccination the week after me still has antibodies. No idea about T cells as that isn’t part of the study.

 

Please forgive what may be a rather stupid question, but does that mean that the vaccinations you have had are now ineffective?

 

DT

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Torper said:

 

Please forgive what may be a rather stupid question, but does that mean that the vaccinations you have had are now ineffective?

 

DT

The protection given by the vaccination wears off over time, around 6 months, hence why us older people are now having boosters.

[boxbrownie]

18 minutes ago, Torper said:

 

Please forgive what may be a rather stupid question, but does that mean that the vaccinations you have had are now ineffective?

 

DT

It sounds like it doesn’t it?  Don’t forget the scientists were always saying they had no evidence of how long any of the vaccines would last hence the always planned booster jabs.

Our last shot was in April and we are due for the booster in the next week or two, but we are still being extremely cautious regardless.

[beast66606]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

People can’t properly make decisions about how they live their lives if they aren’t given appropriate warnings.

 

I must be blind and deaf, because I am neither seeing nor hearing any clear message that the old and otherwise vulnerable need to be bl00dy careful at the moment, and certainly no message that others need to act to protect them.

 

Now, that might be because I’m not in the ‘target audience’, being in my early 60s and (pending the findings of a visit to the cardiologist tomorrow!) reasonably fit. But, I don’t think so.

 

I think HMG is very happy for ‘incautious feel good’ to pervade, rather than a bit of sensible caution, just right now.

 

You will notice how vaccination rates among <40yo are stubbornly stuck with c1:3 not vaccinated. That isn’t the case in other countries where the governments have continued to sound appropriate notes of caution.

 

 

 

Appropriate notes of caution = the army ? or arrest everyone ?

 

If - after all this time - people can't make their own decisions about their own risk factors then they really need to give their heads a wobble.

 

[woodenhead]

28 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

People can’t properly make decisions about how they live their lives if they aren’t given appropriate warnings.

 

I must be blind and deaf, because I am neither seeing nor hearing any clear message that the old and otherwise vulnerable need to be bl00dy careful at the moment, and certainly no message that others need to act to protect them.

 

Now, that might be because I’m not in the ‘target audience’, being in my early 60s and (pending the findings of a visit to the cardiologist tomorrow!) reasonably fit. But, I don’t think so.

 

I think HMG is very happy for ‘incautious feel good’ to pervade, rather than a bit of sensible caution, just right now.

 

You will notice how vaccination rates among <40yo are stubbornly stuck with c1:3 not vaccinated. That isn’t the case in other countries where the governments have continued to sound appropriate notes of caution.

 

 

Vulnerable people are still being given guidance - my MiL had a letter last week advising the to still keep away from people where she can as she is immune suppressed but the formal support was dropping away.  Basically for ever more she will have to be careful, not that she has been and is still continuing, she only goes out now for walks, to visit her son or shopping.

[Nearholmer]

7 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

Appropriate notes of caution = the army ? or arrest everyone ?

Hyperbole.

 

Government ministers get bags and bags of airtime, and they consistently fail to use it appropriately.

 

The failure to update the advice about what symptoms indicate the need to test for Covid is a big omission, and the failure to bang the drum about the recommendation to mask-up in indoor public spaces to protect others is another, while chirruping on about how well the U.K. has done with vaccination is becoming something of dud message now that other countries have surpassed us and while vaccine uptake among <40yo is decidedly underwhelming.

 

I’m not accusing HMG of lying, but when one takes an oath, it includes the words “…. The whole truth…..”, and on that front I’m anything but convinced that they are doing a decent job.

[woodenhead]

I think part of the issue is that with the economy opening back up other factors are coming in to play taking up ministers time and impacting the voters:

1. shortages - food, gas, petrol & human resources
2. Brexit - dealing with Northern Ireland, getting new trade deals etc
3. Inflation - see 1
4. NHS backlogs - see 1
5. Covid

I deliberately put Covid at number 5, it's not something we hear much from ministers at the moment as they seek to distance themselves from any blame for items 1-4, but can we afford not to still give real focus on vaccinations as it will only make items 1-4 worse in the long run if we end up locking down again.

[Reorte]

We live in a time where finding out information is easier than ever, should you need to have every relevant piece of useful information and appropriate guideline delivered to you with no effort on your part, or is it reasonable to expect people to be able to search for and assess the information for themselves?

 

The reality, as usual, isn't either of those black and white extremes, but people need to have some responsibility for themselves.

[beast66606]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Hyperbole.

 

Government ministers get bags and bags of airtime, and they consistently fail to use it appropriately.

 

The failure to update the advice about what symptoms indicate the need to test for Covid is a big omission, and the failure to bang the drum about the recommendation to mask-up in indoor public spaces to protect others is another, while chirruping on about how well the U.K. has done with vaccination is becoming something of dud message now that other countries have surpassed us and while vaccine uptake among <40yo is decidedly underwhelming.

 

I’m not accusing HMG of lying, but when one takes an oath, it includes the words “…. The whole truth…..”, and on that front I’m anything but convinced that they are doing a decent job.

 

Did you forget what you posted ?

 

49 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

That isn’t the case in other countries where the governments have continued to sound appropriate notes of caution.

 

you generalised into other countries and yet drop back to talk about HMG when challenged.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

people need to have some responsibility for themselves.

And, I’m afraid, that’s about as far as many people seem to get.

 

The bit where they move on and take actions out of a sense of responsibility towards others seems to be beyond rather too many people.

 

And, I regard it as part of HMG’s job to inculcate that sense of responsibility for others. To lead in a positive direction, if you will.

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

And, I’m afraid, that’s about as far as many people seem to get.

 

The bit where they move on and take actions out of a sense of responsibility towards others seems to be beyond rather too many people.

 

And, I regard it as part of HMG’s job to inculcate that sense of responsibility for others. To lead in a positive direction, if you will.

Beware of the black and white extreme approach though, too many peoples' ideas of "responsibility towards others" appears to be "don't do anything if there's any chance it could put someone else at risk, no matter how few people or how low a risk," and that's held up against the other extreme of not giving a damn about anyone else.

 

Once again it's about where that balance should lie, unfortunately people tend to bunker down at extremes. That balance is rarely exactly half way between the extremes either, where it does lie is subjective, and finding it requires thought and care and not a simple set of rules to follow,  (this isn't directed at you personally BTW).

Edited October 7, 2021 by Reorte

[Nearholmer]

Beast

 

I’m accusing you of hyperbole when you suggest/imply that either I’m suggesting compulsion, or that the only option left is compulsion.

 

Neither is the case. What is needed is complete honesty, and a willingness to push some messages that people would rather not have to hear: we need to achieve a higher vaccination rate among the <40yo; and, people need to get a lot better at acting to protect others.

 

Kevin