Ship stuck across (blocking) the Suez Canal

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Before casting stones you should reflect that that was the expectation throughout the West until really very recently. 

So much so that my mother worked during the 1950s and it wasn't considered shameful as it is still these days in some Muslim countries.

Also we were educating our women, which still isn't general in some "conservative" countries.

[Compound2632]

Yes indeed, my parents' generation. But both my grandmothers were effectively fired on getting married - in the nicest possible way, with gifts of wedding china etc. And they had been pioneers in the workplace - not confined to service or being a shop assistant. My point is, it's not Islamic societies in particular but "traditional" societies in general. Religion may come into it but not any particular religion. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Compound2632

[Darius43]

This thread is about the Ever Given Suez Canal incident not an outlet for Islamaphobia.

 

Darius

[Oldddudders]

14 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

This thread is about the Ever Given Suez Canal incident not an outlet for Islamaphobia.

 

Darius

Islamophobia? Swiss women didn't get the vote until 1971. A referendum in 1959 turned the idea down emphatically. Evidently they were just expected to cook, have babies and wind the cuckoo clock. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

.......Evidently they were just expected to cook, have babies and wind the cuckoo clock. 

 

Is the last one a euphemism Ian?

 

 

.

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Is the last one a euphemism Ian?

Not intentionally, and no doubt someone had to do it, but it could indeed be a cypher for all sorts of domestic trivia! Second class citizens, certainly.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Before casting stones you should reflect that that was the expectation throughout the West until really very recently. 

Talking of casting stones, didn’t we just divorce them for adultery though?

Edited April 4, 2021 by boxbrownie

[The Johnster]

The culture of inequatlity between men and women in those parts of the world connected with Islam is not actaully down to Islam; I believe the Quran states that a man may have many wives but is unable to do justice to more than one.  As it happened, Islam was rooted in and spread rapidly to parts of the world that, by no more than coincidence, already featured highly male-centric societies whose cultures went back to classical times; it is significant that both the Greeks (except the Spartans) and Romans of classical times regarded women as chattels or property, with no rights and unable to make decisions unless they were approved by the man of the situation.  They were expected to be pure, docile, obedient, to keep house, and to serve their fathers until they got married after which they served their husbands, and trained their daughters to do the same.

 

I am old enough to remember the 'traditional' attitudes to women that were prevalant here in the 1950s and were not challenged until the 1960s, and I am rather proud to have been an active member of the generation that did the challenging!  Women are intellectually as capable as men (and in other ways too, by and large), so take a moment to consider the scientific, mathematical, philosophical, technological, medical and engineering advances that have been lost to mankind since the early classical period by men's insistence on dominance over and control of women.

 

The abuse of the Egyptian lady is disgraceful; ship's captains are qualified and highly skilled professionals who should command respect as well as ships.

[Michael Hodgson]

Yeah, and she's not bad looking either.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Things have progressed more rapidly in other fields.

Egyptair and Royal Jordanian airlines, have had some female pilots for something like 15 or 20 years or so. 
 

Nowadays, there are female airline pilots flying for various Gulf based airlines.

Emirates have a few women captains, including an Egyptian A380 captain.

 

 

.

 

[johnofwessex]

I suggest a read of 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Drummond

 

or get the book

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Remarkable-Victoria-Drummond-Marine-Engineer/dp/0907206549

 

Fascinating woman, it also says a lot about how women were treated in the recent past in the UK and abroad

[jonny777]

14 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Talking of casting stones, didn’t we just divorce them for adultery though?

 

If I was ever going to worship a deity of unbelievably high intelligence, I would avoid one of so limited knowledge that they devised a sunrise to sunset fasting period which was only really workable in the tropics.  Those living above the Arctic Circle and on Antarctica would need to go without food for 2-3 months if Ramadan fell in their summertime. 

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Things have progressed more rapidly in other fields.

Egyptair and Royal Jordanian airlines, have had some female pilots for something like 15 or 20 years or so. 
 

Nowadays, there are female airline pilots flying for various Gulf based airlines.

Emirates have a few women captains, including an Egyptian A380 captain.

 

 

.

 

Very true, and from 2019 women can drive cars in Saudi 

[Hroth]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I am old enough to remember the 'traditional' attitudes to women that were prevalant here in the 1950s and were not challenged until the 1960s, and I am rather proud to have been an active member of the generation that did the challenging!  Women are intellectually as capable as men (and in other ways too, by and large), so take a moment to consider the scientific, mathematical, philosophical, technological, medical and engineering advances that have been lost to mankind since the early classical period by men's insistence on dominance over and control of women.

 

Interesting article on BBC website positively comparing performance of drivers in the weekends Extreme E event.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/56618503

 

[The Johnster]

Actually, muslims living in the polar regions have dispensation from their Imans to observe Ramadan daylight fasting at set times rather than by sunrise/set.  The sunrise/sunset fasting works well enough outside the tropics even as far north as the UK, and Mecca is north of the tropic of Cancer. 

[LNER4479]

In a similar vein...

[Oldddudders]

Meanwhile, grasping for a tenuous Middle-east connection, I read that two Irish ladies have been detained in Dublin, having refused to take mandatory quarantine after stepping off a plane from Dubai. In the middle of a pandemic they had gone there for cosmetic surgery, allegedly each getting a boob job. And lo, when challenged and detained, they cry foul in that they each have young children. Children that they left behind to get enhanced figures, having no doubt paid a fortune to fly, when so few are doing so and thus fares are up rather than down. 

 

Where emancipation is concerned, I see these two rather letting the side down. 

[tomparryharry]

After a 12-hour nightshift working with molten metal, I too, like to tidy my hair.  Mind you, tights don't last very long..... 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

  The sunrise/sunset fasting works well enough outside the tropics even as far north as the UK, and Mecca is north of the tropic of Cancer. 

 

Up to a point it does work, but we put Muslims on light duties during Ramadan in our factory in Marseille.  Manually humping 1000 x 25kg sacks while you have no sustenance (and in some cases no liquid intake) is not something that should be accepted.

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

If I was ever going to worship a deity of unbelievably high intelligence, I would avoid one of so limited knowledge that they devised a sunrise to sunset fasting period which was only really workable in the tropics.  Those living above the Arctic Circle and on Antarctica would need to go without food for 2-3 months if Ramadan fell in their summertime. 

I believe they've got rules for how you should go about it in extreme latitutudes.

 

edit: already explained I see. Should read to the last post before posting!

Edited April 5, 2021 by Reorte

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

........Where emancipation is concerned, I see these two rather letting the side down. 

 

When it came to lady's upper bits, I thought "emancipation" was letting things down?

 

Surely a boob Job would be the opposite, I would have thought?  

 

 

.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Up to a point it does work, but we put Muslims on light duties during Ramadan in our factory in Marseille.  Manually humping 1000 x 25kg sacks while you have no sustenance (and in some cases no liquid intake) is not something that should be accepted.

sounds like discriminatsion on grounds of religion

[Andy Hayter]

In a sense you would be right, but then we let lots of non-Muslims have Christmas and Easter off.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

sounds like discriminatsion on grounds of religion

 

It shouldn't be. When you sign a contract for employment, a  contract should state what the job & duties should entail.  It should also state that by turning up for work, you are fit for work. Going on 'light duties' without medical requirement  or permission in safety-critical situation would have you out. Why? Because said 'fit' worker is a liability; liability to themselves, and more importantly, liability to his fellow workmates.  Would you  have a workmate with you who is incapacitated through drink, drugs or religious requirement? 

 

I never, ever discriminate by colour or creed; never have, and never will. Only attitude is a demarcation.  One guy had a severe warning when we were tapping a furnace, and  he disappeared. "Where's xxx? " Oh, he's outside, having a fag..." WTF?  Thank the Lord for drug & alcohol testing.  No employer will hire you if they think the employee is a liability. 

 

I'm sorry for ranting, but I've seen first hand what happens when a worker is incapable.  Food misuse is one of them.

[The Johnster]

So, if you are keeping practicing muslims from heavy work during Ramadan because they cannot eat, or drink anything other than fresh water, between sundown and sunset, on the basis of their health and safety and those of their workmates because of assumed low energy levels, the question then is about whether you are imposing positive discrimination on them on religious grounds.  This is where it gets awkward; you're not discriminating but applying good H & S practice, but as the muslim employees signed a contract of employment which delineated their duties, they have, if TPH's analysis is correct, disbarred themselves from consideration from any special treatment. 

 

But, you were aware that they were muslim at the time you signed their contract of employment, and this sort of thing cuts both ways.  You were aware if they informed you of a conversion to Islam at a later date as well.  I reckon if a court case were brought, say by an non-muslim worker who felt discriminated against on religious grounds, the court judge would decide on the basis of your intention, which I would say is on health and safety grounds in this instance.  A non muslim worker who was performing below par because of a mild illness might be put on light duties for the same reason, so in that sense there is no discrimination (not saying this isn't a legal minefield in a legal quagmire in a legal fog on a dark legal night when you haven't got a legal torch, legal map, or legal compass). 

 

It is also dependent on how the duties are distributed among the employees.  Are they shared out so that normally everybody has a turn on the light duties, or are they allocated to to individual workers who have settled into individual duties having proved competent, capable, and reliable performing them, which is what I suspect happens officially or unofficially in most workplaces, even those where unionised demarcation is not enforced.  If a man proves good at a job, then it makes sense to leave him there.  So, if you take the regular man off a light duty and replace him with a muslim observing Ramadan for H & S reasons, this looks a bit more like religious discrimination; the man shifted from his normal job will almost certainly think so, but if he does not react in the same way if a non muslim replaces him, it might be argued that it is he that is guilty of religious discrimination; it will certainly be so argued if he is heard commenting on the fact in such terms!

 

I would see no reason to move a muslim from heavy work during a winter Ramadan in the UK. as the fasting is relatively short and can be preceeded by a big breakfast.  OTOH, I can remember pracising muslims being very much below par during midsummer Ramadans, when rise to set might be around 18 hours, more in Scotland, when I worked for Royal Mail in sorting offices in the 80s and 90s.  I can fully see why an employer might be concerned if very heavy work was involved; even sorting office work involves chucking full mail bags about the place and is no place for a man who has not eaten properly for 12 or more hours!  There is also a potential issue where work requires concentration, especially driving or operating machines.

 

There are muslims and muslims of course, and there is a range of how closely they follow the 'rules'.  One of my chums is an Algerian bloke of my own age, but who had a rather more interesting childhood (while I played 3 and in with jumpers for goalposts over the park, he was throwing molotov cocktails at French tanks in the street; his father was murdered along with a group of men rounded up by the OSS and summarily shot in a local square in a retaliation killing after a bombing.  He observes Ramadan by drinking low alcohol beer and not eating bacon, which he loves, for breakfast. and I think none the worse of him for this.  He does engage with Ramadan in the sense of paying more attention to his religious duties and supporting muslim charities, and concentrating on Halal food, but will eat during the day in summer Ramadans.  Allah, he says, is reasonable.