KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And if they sell out on pre-order there will always be the second run, a two pack BR lined express maroon and BR Blue

 

I look forward to the emails

[Michael Hodgson]

45 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

On the bright side, the mail ended giving us an opportunity to vote between 3 or 6 month monthly payment options replacing the old 12 month one. I suppose next month we'll get to vote between credit card or paypal.

Sorry, but I'm still voting with my feet.

[Colin_McLeod]

58 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

On the bright side, the mail ended giving us an opportunity to vote between 3 or 6 month monthly payment options replacing the old 12 month one. 

 

We've decided to kick the 12-month financing option to the curb and make way for an alternative option.

 

You will have the option of two payment options: a swift and snappy 3-month plan or a slightly more laid-back 6-month plan. 

 

I thought the existing 12-month plan was even more laid-back. 😀

[Phil Parker]

27 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Sadly, I cannot but draw comparison between KR Models and  DJ Models. 

 

Rob

 

Why? Whatever else you say, KR has produced the models promised. Whether you like them is another matter, they actually exist.

[woodenhead]

This is how a Canadian company should be advertising it's new models, you can clearly see and hear what is coming, no hubris and this one is without the typical comedy.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by woodenhead
here to hear

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry but having enlarged a snip out of that video (which I suspect is probably an earlier one anyway) the valvegear is no more working now than it was previously.  But that might be down to it being an old video?  However looking at their 'new' photos and doing a bit of enlarging and lightening it appears that the radius rod and valve rod are still a one piece plastic moulding and although it is not so clear it also looks as if the eccentric rods are also still a one piece plastic moulding.

 

KR appear to be totally confused (or just plain not bothered?) about the fact that Stephenson gear (used on umpteen engines the world over) and Gooch gear are different even tho' the difference is minimal (the expansion link is the opposite way round).   However 'complicated' they might be finding it the fact that working Gooch valvegear has been previously modelled on an r-t-r HO engine seems still to elude them.

 

While some of this might be down to their seeming problems in communicating clearly in written English the simple fact remains that from what we are seeing now there appears to have been no advance at all in producing a valvegear which actually makes the valve rod move or even the eccentric rods work as they should.  

 

The video is the previous one dating back 5 months. So either there is a new video that is not yet published and they linked the wrong one or the only thing I see instantly different between this EP and the older one is the Cab roof (of course they may have been published before and I missed it) and - somehow - the message between different roof and working valve gear got mixed up.... 

Apart from that, the EP in the 5 month video (which does not highlight any special working link motion) and the ones in the photo look identical.

Perso, they would be better off giving up making it work, making it static and saying only a static representation was possible on this budget. The loco is still good value for £135.

 

 

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Why? Whatever else you say, KR has produced the models promised. Whether you like them is another matter, they actually exist.

 

 

I have removed my post, Phil in light of your latter view that my post was potentially libellous. 

 

I'll refrain from any further comment on KRModels and this model in particular other than to say that I  will look forward to the company producing the model they have promised, to the specification promised.

 

If they do, I'll happily put my hand in my pocket. 

 

Rob. 

[Edwardian]

There is a different  video of the old EP on the Facebook page, which gives a better view of the motion. 

https://www.facebook.com/krmodels.uk/videos/663948048645044

 

So, I checked what KR had told me back in February this year:

 

"The two eccentric rods do work, but the bracket that holds them does not.  This is one of the areas that we are working on now before the next sample comes out."  

 

That suggest to me an intention to make the the rocking crank ("bracket"), as I call it, as a functioning part attached to the eccentric rods. It follows that these rods could not be fixed at an angle, but must be separate components capable of independent motion. 

 

Nothing is mentioned in that statement about the connection to the rest of the valve gear or of that specifically working.  At the very least, however, it would seem that the area edged blue was to be fully and properly functioning, even if there was not to be a connection to the components edged yellow would be static. 

 

 

However, this is less than KR's claims of fully functioning valve gear that were have promised in the past, e.g. the December 2022 Newsletter, which states " We can confirm that the very complex valve gear is all fully functional and works very well."

 

Now the May 2023 Newsletter:

 

This valve gear ... we absolutely smashed it! It runs very smooth, with the motion just mesmerizing ... it just isn't a typical model. The complex gearing is what makes it ... We have brought Bellerophon to life, complete with the mind-blowing Stevenson-Gooch valve gear.

 

Which suggests to me that the claim is again that all the gear works, but now the work on it is complete, whereas the EP pictures published alongside suggest no change at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I have made my feelings on KR quite clear in the past and have no wish to get involved with this issue.

I shall remain in the garage and watch my Fleishmann Prussian T3 potter along so that I can enjoy seeing all the bits moving correctly.😃

Benard

[Schooner]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

shall remain in the garage and watch my Fleishmann Prussian T3

Very reasonable course of action.

 

Any contact with KR, whether through poorly-judged marketing tactics, desperate-sounding newsletters or BS-smelling updates, costs a little more of my goodwill. Horses for courses, and perhaps I'm not the target audience (although given I'm fairly vocal about mid-Victorian industrials I'd be interested to know who is), but every word from KR is a turn-off.

 

Fingers remain x'd for Bellerophon, but expectations remain low.

 

 

[AlfaZagato]

I hadn't taken a close look this morning when I received my newsletter.   Shame to see the update seems a dud.

 

 

 

 

I also now approach this thread with a bag of popcorn.

[BVMR21]

Having had a look through it all, it just seems very minor, considering you won't really be seeing it all the time, though I have made my view point known before that as long as it runs well, pulls a decent sized train, and doesn't break as soon as I pick it up then I'm happy.

Yes it is a minor disappointment that the model seems to not have the valve gear 100% accurate, however if it was a choice between having a decent quality model and the fully working valve gear then I know what I would pick.

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, BVMR21 said:

Having had a look through it all, it just seems very minor, considering you won't really be seeing it all the time, though I have made my view point known before that as long as it runs well, pulls a decent sized train, and doesn't break as soon as I pick it up then I'm happy.

Yes it is a minor disappointment that the model seems to not have the valve gear 100% accurate, however if it was a choice between having a decent quality model and the fully working valve gear then I know what I would pick.

And at the pricepoint to it would be a fine model....except that isn't what KR Models are declaring about their model and I think this is the crux of the argument - the hubris and reality.

 

If KR Models had come clean early on that this was the best they could do for the price and fragility of the valve gear I expect some would be disappointed but equally understanding of the situation, but the declarations so far are the polar opposite.

 

Of course, new moving images may appear shortly showing that KR Models have delivered exactly what they acclaim and people will be very happy to purchase.

[Edwardian]

Hews flash

 

Responding to my latest email, I am told by KR that a new video will be released shortly "showing the slow motion of the valve gear working" 

 

Hopefully that will provide some much needed clarity and end our speculation.

[Schooner]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Hews flash

 

Cover up, Hew, nobody's interested. We all just want to watch the new video in peace, okay?

[The Stationmaster]

Simple really - the new video linked by Edwardian confirms that the radius rod and valve rod are still a single plastic moulding.  Quite what the eccentric rods are doing is not really clear nor is the fact that there are the necessary two eccentrics reqiuired in order to create the correct motion of the eccentric rods.  We know it can be done because it can all be seen working on the model from another company shown in 'Schooner's link.  So we now await KR's new, new, video to see what has happened.

 

Maybe in the end it will come back to to KR's description of their product and whether or not it actually matches what is described - which is covered by the Consumer Rights Act, 2015

[Ian Hargrave]

22 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

Cover up, Hew, nobody's interested. We all just want to watch the new video in peace, okay?

 Netflix or Amazon Prime ?

[Michael Hodgson]

59 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Maybe in the end it will come back to to KR's description of their product and whether or not it actually matches what is described - which is covered by the Consumer Rights Act, 2015

 

I would be surprised if many of KR's customers make a stand on those rights if it does fail to live up their hopes/expectations.

[Roy Langridge]

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

I want to want one; but I don't yet.

 

And that sums up nicely my view of a number of manufacturers/models these days. Increasingly, in regard to those aforementioned,  I am finding I have to wait to see the final product and only rarely does the end result satisfy me. Shame.

 

Roy

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

This valve gear ... we absolutely smashed it! I

 

Maye it's just me but that sort of marketing hype just gives me the message the that indeed it does NOT work.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I would be surprised if many of KR's customers make a stand on those rights if it does fail to live up their hopes/expectations.

 

I did - not as described - and was refunded.

 

CJI.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I did - not as described - and was refunded.

 

CJI.

Fine, but I suspect you're in a small enough minority not to give them a prblem selling the model

[Edwardian]

 

OK, so this is the new video from the KR Models' Facebook page.

 

The easiest places to see what's going on are on the rolling road from 0.14 and on the layout from about 0.55. I slowed it right down, however, 25% speed is a bit 'I am the Walrus', if you know what I mean, but half speed is slow enough to see exactly what's going on, while being a good deal less trippy.

 

So what is going on?

 

Well, I can say as a certainty what's not going on. Gooch valve gear in full motion is not going on.

 

As we surmised, the valve rod and the top crank are all static moulded components and I can see the daylight between these forward elements and the central rocking crank area where they connect on the prototype.  Sad, but we pretty much expected that, despite the claims, not all the gear would function. 

 

But the eccentric rods?

 

The ends of the eccentric rods may now be connected to the central crank, but IMHO they still do not move quite as they should.  The good news is that they are not a single piece, but two separate rods. As such, they move independently of one another. Now that they are connected to the rocking crank, it can be seen that the angle between them does not remain constant, however, the range of movement does seem to fall short of that seen on the prototype, so the scissoring effect does not really seem to come off.

 

Perhaps I am being a little harsh here? It basically works, this bit. I would be interested to see how others feel about this eccentric rod motion, most clearly seen on the rolling road footage.  

 

So, I think the jury is now in.

 

For me, I would say my verdicts are:

 

(1) I can just about live with the the valve rod and top crank not working provided the prominent motion of the eccentric rods is captured correctly; it's a tough technical challenge, especially with such a long valve rod, so no shame on KR if it could not be done. I did not expect miracles, though I, like others here, would have preferred some honesty on this score;

 

(2) The eccentric rods do now work, but, as I say, I have some reservations about this. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was mesmerising, though certainly an improvement now it's working as KR intended. 

 

In two minds at this stage. 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Edwardian

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Fine, but I suspect you're in a small enough minority not to give them a prblem selling the model

 

At the end of the day, if you pre-order / pre-pay on the basis of a product description / specification, and the ultimate product does not conform to that description/ specification, you are entitled to a full refund BY UK LAW.

 

CJI.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

OK, so this is the new video from the KR Models' Facebook page.

 

The easiest places to see what's going on are on the rolling road from 0.14 and on the layout from about 0.55. I slowed it right down, however, 25% speed is a bit 'I am the Walrus', if you know what I mean, but half speed is slow enough to see exactly what's going on, while being a good deal less trippy.

 

So what is going on?

 

Well, I can say as a certainty what's not going on. Gooch valve gear in full motion is not going on.

 

As we surmised, the valve rod and the top crank are all static moulded components and I can see the daylight between these forward elements and the central rocking crank area where they connect on the prototype.  Sad, but we pretty much expected that, despite the claims, not all the gear would function. 

 

But the eccentric rods?

 

The ends of the eccentric rods may now be connected to the central crank, but IMHO they still do not move quite as they should.  The good news is that they are not a single piece, but two separate rods. As such, they move independently of one another. Now that they are connected to the rocking crank, it can be seen that the angle between them does not remain constant, however, the range of movement does seem to fall short of that seen on the prototype, so the scissoring effect does not really seem to come off.

 

Perhaps I am being a little harsh here? It basically works, this bit. I would be interested to see how others feel about this eccentric rod motion, most clearly seen on the rolling road footage.  

 

So, I think the jury is now in.

 

For me, I would say my verdicts are:

 

(1) I can just about live with the the valve rod and top crank not working provided the prominent motion of the eccentric rods is captured correctly; it's a tough technical challenge, especially with such a long valve rod, so no shame on KR if it could not be done. I did not expect miracles, though I, like others here, would have preferred some honesty on this score;

 

(2) The eccentric rods do now work, but, as I say, I have some reservations about this. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was mesmerising, though certainly an improvement now it's working as KR intended. 

 

In two minds at this stage. 

 

 

Thank you for posting. It looks to me as if both eccentrics and their associated rods are moulded as a single piece or else are separate pieces fixed together. Thus there is only one working eccentric and the other eccentric and the eccentric rods move with it. You may be right and I may be wrong but either way, as you say, “Gooch valve gear in full motion is not going on.”