New structure for British railways

[caradoc]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Grade drift - invariably upwards - went on for years and job evaluation was introduced with the intention of stopping it.

 

One of the daft (to me) things was that, two years after being displaced (as a Grade D Controller), I applied for and got an MS1 job back in my office; None of the Grade E Controllers applied for the job because it would cost them money, so I became senior to them all, many having years more service and experience than me. Of course, a couple of years later their jobs were upgraded to MS also.....

 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

From what I have read elsewhere the lack of trains to Victoria was nothing to do with any engineering work, but because Southern did not have enough Drivers to provide anything like the full service, and not enough resources to plan a reliable reduced service, therefore the diversions to London Bridge for the planned closure at Victoria had to be kept in operation. As more Drivers became available a limited service to Victoria was reinstated. 

Which, for the great majority of the Southern-weary travelling public, cuts no ice at all.  

 

As a member of TOC staff directly impacted by the lack of service to and from Victoria I too am thoroughly sick of trying to offer explanations.  The apologies are wearing pretty thin too.  It takes one driver and one train to run a service to London Bridge.  So why, if that service would normally run to Victoria, does it not now do so?  Simple question.  No answers forthcoming.  

 

Certain safety standards managers are also less than impressed at the overcrowding of trains and platforms this situation is causing.  

[Mike Storey]

55 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

One of the daft (to me) things was that, two years after being displaced (as a Grade D Controller), I applied for and got an MS1 job back in my office; None of the Grade E Controllers applied for the job because it would cost them money, so I became senior to them all, many having years more service and experience than me. Of course, a couple of years later their jobs were upgraded to MS also.....

 

 

I certainly agree with that. When I went (on promotion, not a reorg) from Supervisory E grade  to MS1, I lost nearly a third of my income. It took until I reached MS4, some eight years later, to make up the difference.

 

But I would also have to defend some of the accusations about "top heavy" management, being an assumption that none of these people did anything, particularly on nights or at weekends. As one of those who went near the top of the EG grades by the time I left, I would remind many of you that we all (outside of HR, Commercial, Planning and Finance) had on-call duties, whether in Ops, Projects or Maintenance and Renewals. For most of my working life, in management, I was on-call 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 weeks, of every week of the year. That meant no drinking for that week, no going out late, going away or anything of that nature. It also meant out of hours visits, site inspections and frequently close involvement with whatever task was in hand that night or weekend. The reason the office lights were rarely on at those times is mainly because the clerical staff only worked M-F, 09.00 to 17.30, and any work in hand was out on site, which is where we needed to be. As a manager, I rarely worked less than 80 hours a week, either in the office, out on site, or at home. That is not something most people in the "working grades" faced doing, unless completely overtime-mad.

 

I completely accept that did not apply to all managers, but it did to a great many, and probably still does, if they are worth their salt and needed to get results. That is why we were paid the bigger bucks.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Always a problem going into MS grades and indeed promotion within when things like 'On Call' allowances were separate.  I went from Grade D supervisory to MS 1 in 1974 and year on year my income dropped by £1,500.  But I was no longer working all the Sundays (but still plenty of them) which had made a nice contribution to that £1,500.

[ess1uk]

On 11/02/2022 at 21:53, Titan said:

 

From what I have heard on the grapevine Network Rail has been compelled to offer the voluntary severance to everybody, and to refuse no-one no matter what their position until the quota is met. Unfortunately as there is a national shortage of certain engineers, so many are accepting and immediately starting new jobs, no doubt with a pay increase to boot and are laughing all the way to the bank.  Meanwhile Network rail are now having to draft in engineers on contract or secondment from other companies to cover the shortfall in key positions...

Really?

not what I’m being told

[Wheatley]

As a D Supervisor in 1992 I was paid about £12k, we were budgeted £25k  and questions were only asked when one of my colleagues (on a much busier patch than mine) managed to breach £27k for the year. My 'manager', with 'Manager' in his job title, was an E supervisor and very happy with it. No-one wanted the MS1 posts as we would have lost a third of our income, so they tended to be filled by management trainees and ex COs with a bit of aptitude. Most of them were great but God help those of them who rocked up expecting us all to kow tow to their superior grade and bow to their authority. It is of course very very easy to obey a completely stupid instruction knowing full well what will happen, and then take great delight in pointing out that you had done exactly what Sir had ordered you to do despite you telling him what would happen.

 

More recently our management grades are now allegedly based on Hayes points (although no-one appears to be able to explain the system) and a lot of 'managers' are indeed what would have once been senior clerical posts. The advantage to the company is that you don't have to pay them overtime or allowances, you can require them to 'volunteer' to cover striking wages grade staff, special events etc, and you can generally require them to do things they don't really want to do. The advantage to the employee is that the pensionable pay is a bit higher. 

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, Pandora said:

 

What will lhappen to the current HQ premises of Network rail?

Being bulldozed for HS2?

[Mike Storey]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

As a D Supervisor in 1992 I was paid about £12k, we were budgeted £25k  and questions were only asked when one of my colleagues (on a much busier patch than mine) managed to breach £27k for the year. My 'manager', with 'Manager' in his job title, was an E supervisor and very happy with it. No-one wanted the MS1 posts as we would have lost a third of our income, so they tended to be filled by management trainees and ex COs with a bit of aptitude. Most of them were great but God help those of them who rocked up expecting us all to kow tow to their superior grade and bow to their authority. It is of course very very easy to obey a completely stupid instruction knowing full well what will happen, and then take great delight in pointing out that you had done exactly what Sir had ordered you to do despite you telling him what would happen.

 

More recently our management grades are now allegedly based on Hayes points (although no-one appears to be able to explain the system) and a lot of 'managers' are indeed what would have once been senior clerical posts. The advantage to the company is that you don't have to pay them overtime or allowances, you can require them to 'volunteer' to cover striking wages grade staff, special events etc, and you can generally require them to do things they don't really want to do. The advantage to the employee is that the pensionable pay is a bit higher. 

 

Agree with all of that, except that Hayes point scoring has been around for decades - it was being used in BR days. But, like you, I found no-one capable of being able to explain some of it.

 

It was always weird that, despite going into MS grades, we were still covered by the TSSA, to whom I continued to pay subs until going into EG grades (which were personally negotiated terms). Indeed, I remember as a wildfire LDC Clerical rep when in my teens, objecting to the presence of management staff at branch meetings, but they were perfectly entitled to be there!! It was useful for free legal advice and representation, should that ever be needed (which a few of my colleagues did when faced with bizarre reasons for termination in NR days), but I am not aware of any role the TSSA took in determining the grading of MS posts or in their remuneration, other than the usual "consultation". In "management grade" circulars, the emphasis did indeed appear to be about pensionable benefits (as cited above) but absolutely sweet FA about all the additional duties, responsibilities or obligations you took on board (also cited above). So, whilst you are all bashing "management", I would ask that you bear some of that in mind.

 

But, on voluntary redundancies, which seems to be the hot topic right now, there appears to be nothing new in the rumour market. There were always myriad propositions about how such schemes were to be delivered, despite a set of rules being published. The fact was that, whatever the rules, a canny Line Manager would decide who he wanted out, and who he wanted to "reward". HR could do little about it. It was standard practice in Railtrack for "redundant" managers and engineers to appear back at their desks the following week, under contract, and usually on much better money. Less so under BR, but it did happen. The drawback was that those same people could be let go, with just a week's notice (which often happened when schemes got terminated or scaled back, mid-way), get no holiday or sick pay and get no additional railway pension. The "gig" economy is nothing new either.

 

 

[Ncarter2]

10 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

 

From what I have read elsewhere the lack of trains to Victoria was nothing to do with any engineering work, but because Southern did not have enough Drivers to provide anything like the full service, and not enough resources to plan a reliable reduced service, therefore the diversions to London Bridge for the planned closure at Victoria had to be kept in operation. As more Drivers became available a limited service to Victoria was reinstated. 

 

 

 

 

Management-graded staff are not necessarily managers in the accepted sense of the word. I was once reorganised out of my job because it was regraded from the Supervisory to the Management structure - That was by BR in 1987. So by privatisation in 1994 the number of Management Grade staff in my office was considerably greater than when I started there in 1984. Nothing new under the sun. 

 

 

 

Agree with you comments, but at the same time, my point was aimed at those roles which have been ‘created’ to provide a role for individuals, one for instance being transformation manager. 

[caradoc]

On 13/02/2022 at 13:52, Gwiwer said:

Which, for the great majority of the Southern-weary travelling public, cuts no ice at all.  

 

True, of course. 

 

On 13/02/2022 at 13:52, Gwiwer said:

As a member of TOC staff directly impacted by the lack of service to and from Victoria I too am thoroughly sick of trying to offer explanations.  The apologies are wearing pretty thin too.  It takes one driver and one train to run a service to London Bridge.  So why, if that service would normally run to Victoria, does it not now do so?  Simple question.  No answers forthcoming.  

 

That must be up to Southern management to explain, have they not done so ? 

 

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

True, of course. 

 

 

That must be up to Southern management to explain, have they not done so ? 

 

Not a word.  Only "Driver shortage".  Which it appears there is not when many trains are running to London Bridge instead of Victoria in addition to which GatEx are operating half the East Croydon shuttles.  There are drivers.  Maybe not quite the normally-required numbers.  But again we are asked all too often "Why can't my train run into Victoria if there's a driver to take it to London Bridge?"  I have no sensible answer to that.  

[stewartingram]

Route knowledge? Requirement for next turn?

[great central]

13 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

True, of course. 

 

 

That must be up to Southern management to explain, have they not done so ? 

 

 

Present day management in touch with the travelling public?

 

I'm in the same situation as Gwiwer, asked questions to which I have no answer.

Edited February 15, 2022 by great central
Add sentence

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/02/2022 at 18:36, Mike Storey said:

 

Agree with all of that, except that Hayes point scoring has been around for decades - it was being used in BR days. But, like you, I found no-one capable of being able to explain some of it.

 

It was always weird that, despite going into MS grades, we were still covered by the TSSA, to whom I continued to pay subs until going into EG grades (which were personally negotiated terms). Indeed, I remember as a wildfire LDC Clerical rep when in my teens, objecting to the presence of management staff at branch meetings, but they were perfectly entitled to be there!! It was useful for free legal advice and representation, should that ever be needed (which a few of my colleagues did when faced with bizarre reasons for termination in NR days), but I am not aware of any role the TSSA took in determining the grading of MS posts or in their remuneration, other than the usual "consultation". In "management grade" circulars, the emphasis did indeed appear to be about pensionable benefits (as cited above) but absolutely sweet FA about all the additional duties, responsibilities or obligations you took on board (also cited above). So, whilst you are all bashing "management", I would ask that you bear some of that in mind.

 

But, on voluntary redundancies, which seems to be the hot topic right now, there appears to be nothing new in the rumour market. There were always myriad propositions about how such schemes were to be delivered, despite a set of rules being published. The fact was that, whatever the rules, a canny Line Manager would decide who he wanted out, and who he wanted to "reward". HR could do little about it. It was standard practice in Railtrack for "redundant" managers and engineers to appear back at their desks the following week, under contract, and usually on much better money. Less so under BR, but it did happen. The drawback was that those same people could be let go, with just a week's notice (which often happened when schemes got terminated or scaled back, mid-way), get no holiday or sick pay and get no additional railway pension. The "gig" economy is nothing new either.

 

 

Yes the Hayes-MSL system has been around for a long time, it was even being used in the 1980s.  I remained in the TSSA throughout, even in EG days, although I had a relatively poor opinion of them as a union and their access to their tame firm of solicitors in London led you to a fairly useless bunch of jobsworths who had less idea about employment law than I did when it came to certain areas of redundancy.  

 

The union and staff reps did not get involved in the Hayes-MSL system when jobs were graded but you could as staff reps argue the toss debate grades during consultation and, as I did on one occasion as a management staff rep, grab the occasional victory on an upgrading.  But you had to play the Hayes-MSL game if you could by drawing out extra responsibilities to justify what you were after.  The system could also be slightly bent - two of us in EG jobs applied for regrading but it was turned as the numbers didn't crunch the right way in the system but what the DGM did for us on a personal basis was move us up to the next salary scale (with a salary increase ) but as we weren't officially in the grade we didn't get the perk which went with it - but as that was taxable it wasn't really any loss.

 

When it came to taking peopl back BR were fairly hot on the subject and wouldn't allow anyone back within 6 months of leaving on redundancy and even then it was very difficult to get approval. However a way round it was to hire the person via an employment agency which I did when bringing back in a chap who had been with us in WR freight planning for years before he went to the CCE in charge of their loco and wagon fleet - where he was subsequently made redundant.  i picked him up for the first time some months after he'd been made redundant there (several years after he'd left us) and he stayed until we reorganised a year or so later.   Subsequently when I was at Eurostar I re-engaged him again - directly that time - because of extra test train planning work but he had to go when Regional Eurostar was cancelled.  However a while after I left he was re-engaged again for some months - not for nothing was he known as the 'comeback kid'.

[caradoc]

18 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

But again we are asked all too often "Why can't my train run into Victoria if there's a driver to take it to London Bridge?"  I have no sensible answer to that.  

 

From what I understand it is because, thanks to the Victoria blockade at Christmas, paths, Traincrew and set diagrams already existed for an amended service to London Bridge, and as there was insufficient time and staffing to plan a greatly reduced service running to Victoria, that timetable was simply rolled on. As more Crews have become available limited services to Victoria have been restored. What I cannot answer is why the situation persists now.

 

[Gwiwer]

3 minutes ago, caradoc said:

What I cannot answer is why the situation persists now.

It is utterly bizarre.  No-one can answer the question.  Train crew we speak with suggest they are keen to return to Victoria.  Passengers are thoroughly cheesed off (to put it in RM-web friendly terms) at having to change at East Croydon which adds somewhat to their journey time and shifts them from one crowded train to another.  Operating staff are faced with overloaded trains disgorging onto platforms with those crowds sometimes alighting into the arms of those waiting to board.  And the tube service at London Bridge is reduced by half during the Northern Line closure making that an even less attractive option that it normally is for most.  

 

Terminating two out of three Metro trains at Balham seriously inconveniences many users who are obliged to change there and await an already-packed through service to Clapham and Victoria.  Wandsworth Common and Battersea Park (which are routinely fairly busy at peak times) have extremely limited services.  And only two tracks instead of four are available because terminating trains force through ones onto the fast lines.  

 

Someone in a suit needs to take a good hard look at what's going on and fix it.  Then start the enquiry into how the situation arose.  

 

GTR (Southern) seem to be playing for time knowing they have the BML closure next week to relay Keymer Junction among other works.  I know of several commuters who recall the last time that junction was relaid and ask why it cannot again be done over weekends but requires a full nine-day line block.  The first train from Brighton into London (Victoria, as it happens) will not arrive until 08.42 after a journey of almost three hours and much too late for some.  But that's another project.  I'm sure NR will be crossing everything that there isn't another bridge-strike on the Arun Valley route.  If yesterday's had happened next week instead there would have been no route available between London and the coast and no spare buses because they are all engaged already on the main line replacement program.  

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

GTR (Southern) seem to be playing for time knowing they have the BML closure next week to relay Keymer Junction among other works.  I know of several commuters who recall the last time that junction was relaid and ask why it cannot again be done over weekends but requires a full nine-day line block.  T 

 

H&S requirements have changed massively since it was last done properly - which was 35 years ago!

 

NR are on record as saying to do the same volume of works in weekend possessions would need 28 of them.

 

You also need to remember that with Brighton being a hotspot for leisure travel during the Summer months there is considerable pressure from stakeholders NOT to have too many weekend closures from Easter onwards. With Covid having ravaged the hospitality / leisure industry there will be many hoping for a bumper crop of visitors to the sea this year.

 

None of that excuses the chaos re- Victoria though....

[John M Upton]

Most if not all Sussex Coast to/from Victoria services are booked to be reinstated from 28th of February when the BML blockade finishes.  Alas to make up for that, the Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton coastways will (barring some peak ones) from the same date be turning around at Chichester and all booked for 313's.

 

I believe the plan is to utilize as many 377's on core commuter routes to London to alleviate overcrowding so expect lots of 12 car trains up there.

 

Gatwick Express and most Watford/Milton Keynes remain suspended UFN.

[Gwiwer]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

None of that excuses the chaos re- Victoria though....

And another thing. 
 

Out of curiosity and because it is a journey I make fairly regularly I checked the price of tickets. 
 

Southern has had a long-running quota-based internet offer of £5 tickets between London area stations and the Sussex coast. I wasn’t surprised to find those no longer on offer. 
 

Selecting a couple of random weekdays two to four weeks ahead all I could find was Off-Peak and Anytime fares between £30 and £38. Not even the Advance fares we could always get for about £17. So a trip from, say, Worthing to London has not only jumped from £5 or £17 outside peak hours to at least £30. For which the poor passenger is also being asked to change at East Croydon in both directions currently or divert via Horsham while Keymer Junction is dealt with. 
 

And there’s the March fare rise ahead. I thought even the accountants might want people to start paying fares and travelling again. I’m sorry but at those prices (per person) it’s far cheaper and sometimes quicker to get the car out.  Even at £1.50 a litre for petrol.  Fixed price for one to four of us. 

[Gwiwer]

9 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Gatwick Express and most Watford/Milton Keynes remain suspended UFN.

GatEx is constrained by the airport station rebuild and the suspension was announced pre-Covid to run until 2023. 
 

The Milton Keynes service is not well used north of London, on the whole, though provides useful connectivity used especially by Gatwick passengers who can usually find a cheaper fare “Not via London Terminals”. 
 

Southern also has to pay for staff at Wembley Central in order to stop their trains there. I would be surprised to see the service return in the long term though it offers useful peak-time capacity. 

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

And another thing. 
 

Out of curiosity and because it is a journey I make fairly regularly I checked the price of tickets. 
 

Southern has had a long-running quota-based internet offer of £5 tickets between London area stations and the Sussex coast. I wasn’t surprised to find those no longer on offer. 
 

Selecting a couple of random weekdays two to four weeks ahead all I could find was Off-Peak and Anytime fares between £30 and £38. Not even the Advance fares we could always get for about £17. So a trip from, say, Worthing to London has not only jumped from £5 or £17 outside peak hours to at least £30. For which the poor passenger is also being asked to change at East Croydon in both directions currently or divert via Horsham while Keymer Junction is dealt with. 
 

And there’s the March fare rise ahead. I thought even the accountants might want people to start paying fares and travelling again. I’m sorry but at those prices (per person) it’s far cheaper and sometimes quicker to get the car out.  Even at £1.50 a litre for petrol.  Fixed price for one to four of us. 

 

It has been noted that ALL TOCs have withdrawn their very cheap fares. Thameslink used to do a off peak travel card deal for about £12 rather than the normal off peak one which came in closer to £20

 

It is believed this is entirely due to instructions from the DfT - remember every 'franchise' is now a management contract with the DfT calling the shots (and taking all the revenue)

 

As the Governments stated policy is that rail users must 'pay their share' (i.e. not bosses or shareholders who have been syphoning off bailout money to pay dividends) of supporting the industry through Covid rather than treating the support they handed out as non repayable grants then its no surprise that all those cheap fares which fall outside the ordinary fare structure have vanished.

 

You want cheaper fares says the Government?  well the DfT says that can only be achieved by smashing the workforce to bits!

[Classsix T]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It has been noted that ALL TOCs have withdrawn their very cheap fares. Thameslink used to do a off peak travel card deal for about £12 rather than the normal off peak one which came in closer to £20

 

It is believed this is entirely due to instructions from the DfT - remember every 'franchise' is now a management contract with the DfT calling the shots (and taking all the revenue)

 

As the Governments stated policy is that rail users must 'pay their share' (i.e. not bosses or shareholders who have been syphoning off bailout money to pay dividends) of supporting the industry through Covid rather than treating the support they handed out as non repayable grants then its no surprise that all those cheap fares which fall outside the ordinary fare structure have vanished.

 

You want cheaper fares says the Government?  well the DfT says that can only be achieved by smashing the workforce to bits!

Is this why I'm seeing more ads on TV for the trainline.con, sorry, .com?

 

That a bulk buyer of pre-order tickets can now "offer" (not guarantee) alleged inexpensive hassle-free tickets because direct to TOC buying has been made unnecessarily cumbersome?

 

Ahh, capitalism, welcome to the debate.

 

Wasn't it a stated aim of GBR to make ticket purchases simpler? I hadn't read that to mean going to a monkey tout rather than the organ grinder.

 

C6T. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Classsix T said:

 

Wasn't it a stated aim of GBR to make ticket purchases simpler? I hadn't read that to mean going to a monkey tout rather than the organ grinder.

 

C6T. 

 

Yes - but since when has 'simpler' been the same thing as 'cheaper'?

 

Technically simply charging everyone a flat £500 fare for every single journey they make still counts as 'simplifying' ticket purchases

Edited February 16, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

GatEx is constrained by the airport station rebuild and the suspension was announced pre-Covid to run until 2023. 
 

The Milton Keynes service is not well used north of London, on the whole, though provides useful connectivity used especially by Gatwick passengers who can usually find a cheaper fare “Not via London Terminals”. 
 

Southern also has to pay for staff at Wembley Central in order to stop their trains there. I would be surprised to see the service return in the long term though it offers useful peak-time capacity. 

 

If it did return I would expect it to be curtailed at Watford Junc and with the Wembley stop removed.

 

[Classsix T]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yes - but since when has 'simpler' been the same thing as 'cheaper'?

 

Technically simply charging everyone a flat £500 fare for every single journey they make still counts as 'simplifying' ticket purchases

Sorry Phil, that doesn't wash and I'll not kowtow to any such. Trainline specifically state that they'll do "cheaper/easier" that's anyway you wanna swing it. They're literally hawking tickets (bulk bought) to the public. "Easier' perhaps, cheaper? I doubt it. Besides, us arguing the toss doesn't disprove the fact that a customer can't easily purchase a minimal rate" piece". Unless, as you say, TOCs have been handicapped in what they can offer.

 

C6T.