SE&CR 5 and 7 plank open wagons.

[Wickham Green too]

Should there be bolt heads 'sticking out' on the inside ? - or would they be flush to avoid any possibility of damaging the load !

[Pre Grouping fan]

23 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Should there be bolt heads 'sticking out' on the inside ? - or would they be flush to avoid any possibility of damaging the load !

 

In my experience of working on wagons at the Bluebell. Most bolts used on the body are coach bolts with thin domed heads, probably half the thickness of an equivalent sized rivet so risk of damage to loads is minimal I'd say. 

[rapidoandy]

38 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

In my experience of working on wagons at the Bluebell. Most bolts used on the body are coach bolts with thin domed heads, probably half the thickness of an equivalent sized rivet so risk of damage to loads is minimal I'd say. 

 

I think the drawings specified this - the result in 4mm scale I think would be nearly impossible to see.

 

A collapsible mould is the only way to make better (I wont say complete) inner detail on a single piece body like this. Yes possible but very expensive - the result is you either have to sell a lot more wagons to keep the same price point, or raise the unit cost. Both of those are not ideal.

 

Andy

[Sweet pea]

Morning all, seen as I really liked my gunpowder van I now have purchased a Rapido Trains UK 906008 5 plank open wagon Diag D1347 in BR grey - S19220. 

Hopefully this wagon will arrive from Hattons on Wednesday. Happy days..😎

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Kevin Johnson

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

As I understand it, if you had a large milled block to be the 'negative' of the inside of the wagon in the mould, you wouldn't be able to remove it if it had to fit around sticky-out bits like bolt heads.

The planks are an illusion - each one is wider than the last.

A kit that has each side moulded individually should be able to have inside and outside detail represented (in theory).

 

In the case of the Cambrian kit for the SECR 7-plank (and other examples of their open wagon kits I have built), full bolt-head detail is present on the inner faces of the sides.

 

However as intimated in later posts, coach bolts were customarily (though possibly not universally) employed in securing body planks to strapping, and their heads would be next-to invisible in 4mm scale. 

 

As such, the detail present in the kit is inevitably overscale, but can be made much less prominent by  lightly sanding before assembly and subsequently painting/weathering. That returns us to the long-standing debate as to whether it is better to make such tiny detail visible through exaggeration, or omit it altogether. 

 

Ever the pragmatist, my Rapido wagons will run with loads or sheeted, and the kit-builds (when I get round to finishing them) will remain empty.

 

John

[MartinTrucks]

On 08/04/2022 at 22:18, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

In my experience of working on wagons at the Bluebell. Most bolts used on the body are coach bolts with thin domed heads, probably half the thickness of an equivalent sized rivet so risk of damage to loads is minimal I'd say. 

The railway companies and BR used flush-headed coach bolts. These are difficult to procure and have been so for several decades, hence the use of the raised head coachbolts on Bluebell wagons.

Best regards,

Martin

[Jon Harbour]

Collected my two SR Brown 7 plank wagons from work today. Superb.

[wainwright1]

On 10/04/2022 at 07:13, MartinTrucks said:

The railway companies and BR used flush-headed coach bolts. These are difficult to procure and have been so for several decades, hence the use of the raised head coachbolts on Bluebell wagons.

Best regards,

Martin

One of our former club members, now sadly passed away, was a working member on the Bluebell and was with a group restoring the Queen Mary brake van. This was held together with the flush headed coach bolts which were very difficult to find, although they did locate a supply in the end.

 

All the best

Ray

[Robin Brasher]

I had hoped to run my 5 and 7 plank SECR open wagons at the Wimborne Railway Society meeting with some Dapol private owner wagons from the area but when I opened my SECR H class box I found I had forgotten to pack the locomotive!

 

A Hornby LBSCR brake van deputised for the Rapido SECR brake van which may or may not appear in the future.

[Robin Brasher]

Almost a complete SECR train. Looking forward to receiving a grey SECR diagram 1558 six wheel brake van to complete it.

[57xx]

On 09/04/2022 at 08:36, Dunsignalling said:

However as intimated in later posts, coach bolts were customarily (though possibly not universally) employed in securing body planks to strapping, and their heads would be next-to invisible in 4mm scale. 

 

As such, the detail present in the kit is inevitably overscale, but can be made much less prominent by  lightly sanding before assembly and subsequently painting/weathering. That returns us to the long-standing debate as to whether it is better to make such tiny detail visible through exaggeration, or omit it altogether.

 

They might not be physically visible, but the rust staining around them is very prominent in pics. Having the bolt heads moulded on helps when weathering as to where to locate the stains. I appreciate however the practicalities of not being able to do this on a one piece RTR mould. On other RTR wagons where there is internal strapping missing (same problem as the bolt heads), I've just utilised microstrip before repainting to a more realistic colour that doesn't look like Grandma's mahogany sideboard.

[Dunsignalling]

 

Probably easier to load or sheet most of ones open wagons so any omissions can't be seen!

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Probably easier to load or sheet most of ones open wagons so any omissions can't be seen!

Depends on your definition of easy - there are a number of ways of doing the sheets themselves but convincing ropes from corners/edges are tricky !

[GreenGiraffe22]

Fitted the bar to one, little fiddly getting it all aligned but I managed it! 

 

[Rich46]

I've been reading that the sheet rail can't be moved and has to be fixed in one position. However all mine are moveable through 180 degrees. I checked that the sheet rail fitted easily in each bracket before I glued the brackets to each end. Then I  gently sprung the sheet rail in place. I know that there are comments about the lack of bolt heads on the inside of the body but I think that overall these are great models that once weathered will really look very convincing when running on a layout. 

[Wickham Green too]

I think you're misinterpreting what should happen with the rail ! - the trapezoidal plate and its supporting wheel are attached to the rail : the wheel sits in a notch in the semi-circular track when in the central position - as supplied by Rapido - but, when not in use, would be lifted out and rolled round its track to one side or t'other so the longitudinal rail lies on the side of the wagon.

[Compound2632]

On 15/04/2022 at 09:21, 57xx said:

On other RTR wagons where there is internal strapping missing 

 

Rapido have cunningly chosen to model wagons with external side knees...

[Rich46]

I see what you mean. A bit difficult to make it work in 4mm scale.

[Wickham Green too]

Difficult - but not impossible.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Rich46 said:

I see what you mean. A bit difficult to make it work in 4mm scale.

Bachmann do it by omitting the portion of bar below the semi-circular track (static in the Rapido rendition) and having the bar pivot in a hole where the end of the bar should be. The subterfuge is not noticeable unless you get pretty up-close and personal with the wagon.

 

That places the bar (incorrectly) outside the track rather than inside, but it ensures the rest of the geometry is maintained. By contrast, Rapido intend their bar to be fitted above the track so that nothing has to move beneath it. That will look better when the wagon is sheeted. Neither is technically correct, but I personally prefer Bachmann's dodge as it works whether I sheet the wagon or not. My first SECR 7-plank will not be getting a bar and I have removed the "Hybar" markings, but I am looking at adapting the next one to represent the bar in its "parked" position.

 

It should be possible to do it correctly and make it work, so long as the track goes on last, but I suspect all the spacing would end up out of scale in order to allow the bar to move smoothly over its full travel.

 

Overall (IMHO) I consider Rapido's solution to be better if the wagon is to be sheeted, Bachmann's if it is not. Where provided for user fitting, providing the bits needed to model the bar up or down (but non-moveable) would be the way to create a more "finescale" look.

 

As a matter of interest, there seem to be many more photos of flat-sheeted wagons, or where the sheet is resting on the load, than ones where the bar is evidently deployed. Were some sheets not big enough to reach over the bar?

 

John

Edited April 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[gwrrob]

I'm planning on sheeting mine using the Smith's ST2 product. It will hide all the weathering.😮

 

[Rich46]

Thanks for all the information. Now I know I will just keep a couple as Hybars and remove the equipment from the rest. Hopefully with a little bit of making good to the paintwork and weathering it will only notice really close up. Who knows maybe someone will produce 3D printed replacement brackets in the parked position ? 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Rich46 said:

Thanks for all the information. Now I know I will just keep a couple as Hybars and remove the equipment from the rest. Hopefully with a little bit of making good to the paintwork and weathering it will only notice really close up. Who knows maybe someone will produce 3D printed replacement brackets in the parked position ? 

You won't need to remove the equipment as it comes in a bag for the user to fit if so desired. This is because the SECR didn't fit the bars to the wagons they built. The Southern Railway fitted them to the batches they constructed, and possibly added them to some of the earlier examples. A few SR-built wagons later had them removed, especially ones transferred to BR engineers' use. 

 

Looking at the bits provided, it should be possible to modify them to represent the parked position. Having a spare set or two will be good insurance should the first attempt not go well.

 

John

Edited April 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Lastbroadcast]

My pair of 7 plankers just arrived. Like many I was skeptical at the price but I must say, they look incredibly sharp and weigh a lot for their size. Not a blemish on either of them, and they really nailed the colours, especially that lovely chocolate brown. Overall very pleased. 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Lastbroadcast

[Dunsignalling]

They are indeed very nice wagons and do justify the price IMHO, even after I factor in the cost of changing the couplings and wheels. 

 

I wonder if the impression of quality, commented on more than once, created by the presence of an extra pennorth of iron ballast will have Bachmann and Hornby dashing to give their 2023 wagons a little more heft!😉

 

John