1938 Tube Stock

[Jeremy Cumberland]

12 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Look at vids of 483006 before being retired on IOW, was lots of wheelslip as if i remember there was an issue with some sort of resistor bank on one DM so would go straight to full power.

On my sound project the wheelslip only occurs if you wack the speed on the controller right up from a standstill. Drive normally and it wont happen.

38 stock has PCM (Pneumatic Camshaft Mechanism) control, so the driver has almost no control over the rate of notching up, just being able to select shunt, series or parallel. I don't know how they were actually driven, but there isn't really any reason for a driver not to go straight to parallel for most main line operation. Each motor car regulates itself according to the setting of the master controller, which merely limits the maximum notch.

 

From memory, I don't think 38 stock had wheelslip protection. Since all the IOW cars were DMs (London Underground formations usually had 2 trailers in a 7-car set), wheelslip might be because one or more motors was isolated.

[Gwiwer]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

I don't think 38 stock had wheelslip protection

Definitely not!  Neither did the 1956 / 1959/ 1960 or 1962 stocks.  As witness a good many misty moisty mornings at a good many suburban stations when the driver took power and the wheels commenced to rotate at differing speeds with various interesting whining noises.  

[Erixtar1992]

wheelslip right at the beginning.

there was a fault causing the one DM to go straight to parallel so i was told.

 

Case closed lol

 

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

48 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said:

wheelslip right at the beginning.

there was a fault causing the one DM to go straight to parallel so i was told.

 

Case closed lol

You are right about the fault, but it goes to full series. You can hear the nine clicks of the RPA (Rotary Pneumatic Actuator) notching up to full series at 0:24. It then notches up to full parallel at 1:14. The driver is presumably aware of the fault and holds the controller in series till the train is up to an appropriate speed. After coasting for a bit, the driver reapplies power at about 2:22, and there is a couple of seconds delay between the two sets of clicks, presumably caused by the driver pausing in series.

 

The RPA has 10 positions and cycles from 1 to 10 and back to 1 again. Postion 1 covers off, shunt, full parallel and weak field, and position 10 covers full series and first parallel.

 

It's losing a lot of air, isn't it?

[teeinox]

On 09/01/2023 at 00:27, Erixtar1992 said:

Look at vids of 483006 before being retired on IOW, was lots of wheelslip as if i remember there was an issue with some sort of resistor bank on one DM so would go straight to full power.

On my sound project the wheelslip only occurs if you wack the speed on the controller right up from a standstill. Drive normally and it wont happen.

 

it also has the two clicks of the line breakers closing that you mention when starting off.

 

i wasnt able to find a clip of one of the rotary compressors, i did look but sadly nothing. If you know of any id love to include it as a selectable option!

eric

 I wish!

 

The KLL4s are ancient history.  They were steadily replaced as much as they could be because of their problems.  But I travelled on the 1938 tube stock so often that the sound remains in my head!  The nearest modern facsimilie I can think of would be a battery powered drill: but it still wouldn't  be right: right tempo but too harsh.

 

Anyway, glad you have got the sound of the line breakers included.  That was truly part of their sound "signature".

 

Regards, Teeinox

[Erixtar1992]

On 16/01/2023 at 19:09, teeinox said:

 I wish!

 

The KLL4s are ancient history.  They were steadily replaced as much as they could be because of their problems.  But I travelled on the 1938 tube stock so often that the sound remains in my head!  The nearest modern facsimilie I can think of would be a battery powered drill: but it still wouldn't  be right: right tempo but too harsh.

 

Anyway, glad you have got the sound of the line breakers included.  That was truly part of their sound "signature".

 

Regards, Teeinox

I will ask about and see if anybody has any footage of one while the compressor is whirring away but i doubt it! Ha.

if you find something similar, can always modify the tempo/pitch to suit i guess.

 

cheers though!

[Broadway Clive]

On 09/01/2023 at 23:26, Jeremy Cumberland said:

You are right about the fault, but it goes to full series. You can hear the nine clicks of the RPA (Rotary Pneumatic Actuator) notching up to full series at 0:24. It then notches up to full parallel at 1:14. The driver is presumably aware of the fault and holds the controller in series till the train is up to an appropriate speed. After coasting for a bit, the driver reapplies power at about 2:22, and there is a couple of seconds delay between the two sets of clicks, presumably caused by the driver pausing in series.

 

 

Drivers were taught to pause the master controller handle at series before moving to full parallel once that speed had been attained. Many would ignore that and just move the handle right round, but the idea of listening to the RPA on the front car and responding to a fault is a fantasy. In the case of wheel spin one would just shut off and move the reverser key back from forward 2 to forward 1 position, which gave a slower rate of acceleration.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Broadway Clive said:

Drivers were taught to pause the master controller handle at series before moving to full parallel once that speed had been attained. Many would ignore that and just move the handle right round, but the idea of listening to the RPA on the front car and responding to a fault is a fantasy. In the case of wheel spin one would just shut off and move the reverser key back from forward 2 to forward 1 position, which gave a slower rate of acceleration.

That - handle full on - was the driving technique used by many Central Line drivers on 1962 stock.  I can't speak for 1938 stock as I rode it less often and rather seldom on the open-air sections where wheel spin might occur, at an age when I would take note of such things.  

 

It has also been the technique of many a driver on many other rail networks.  Handle to "full on" and let the hardware do the notching up.  I spent some years working on Melbourne's tramways, the largest system in the world, where I found the same system in use again especially on the elderly W-class cars dating from around the time of 1938 tube stock.  In all cases if you caused wheel spin you notched back until you got a grip and then "went for it" again.  

Edited April 30, 2023 by Gwiwer

[GoingUnderground]

There has been some debate over the accuracy of the top speed of the EFE Rail '38 Stock models with doubt being cast on their top speed.

 

The LT Muiseum was running their 4 car '38 Stock between Acton town and Uxbridge over last weekend. I was on one of those trips and luckily was sat next to the cab door. I can confirm from personal observation that on the leg from Acton to UJxbridge it ran at between 40 and 45 between stations according to the speedo in the cab. The weak field flag was not showing but I was told that it was set permanently.

[Gwiwer]

6 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

There has been some debate over the accuracy of the top speed of the EFE Rail '38 Stock models with doubt being cast on their top speed.

 

The LT Muiseum was running their 4 car '38 Stock between Acton town and Uxbridge over last weekend. I was on one of those trips and luckily was sat next to the cab door. I can confirm from personal observation that on the leg from Acton to UJxbridge it ran at between 40 and 45 between stations according to the speedo in the cab. The weak field flag was not showing but I was told that it was set permanently.

Having also been on one of those trips and being well-versed in calculating the speed of a tube train I will agree with the comments made.  Station speed limits were scrupulously observed but - where no other restriction or signal intervened - speeds in the region of 40 - 45mph were achieved and the train rode superbly given its 85 years.  

 

How does one calculate the speed of a tube train without seeing the speedometer?  One notes the time taken to pass successive kilometre markers (spaced every 0.2km on LU) and calculate speed from time and distance.  

[GoingUnderground]

On 05/05/2023 at 21:25, Gwiwer said:

Having also been on one of those trips and being well-versed in calculating the speed of a tube train I will agree with the comments made.  Station speed limits were scrupulously observed but - where no other restriction or signal intervened - speeds in the region of 40 - 45mph were achieved and the train rode superbly given its 85 years.  

 

How does one calculate the speed of a tube train without seeing the speedometer?  One notes the time taken to pass successive kilometre markers (spaced every 0.2km on LU) and calculate speed from time and distance.  

Indeed, it rode better than the regular '73 Stock that took us to and from Acton Town, and was very comfortable thanks to the very generously sprung seat cushions.

 

 

And before anyone says that it only reached that speed as the train was lightly loaded, it is true that there was no-one standing other than the couple of LT Museum car attendants in each car, but all the seats were fully occupied with very happy passengers.

 

[Jeff Smith]

Finished in bus red.....pity, would have looked better in train red!  The coach interior was ex-Northern Line judging by the map.

[PeterStiles]

Do we then agree, that this model which does up to 25mph with a following wind and down a gradient,is _defective_?

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, PeterStiles said:

Do we then agree, that this model which does up to 25mph with a following wind and down a gradient,is _defective_?

No. There is nothing defective about my EFE unit. 

[GoingUnderground]

10 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Finished in bus red.....pity, would have looked better in train red!  The coach interior was ex-Northern Line judging by the map.

As far as I know it is Train Red as the fleet numbers are in gold, not white.

 

The set was one of the ones that were brought out of retirement in the mid/late 1980s and ran on the Northern line between September 1986 and May 1988. The route maps, in the D DM car at least, do not date from that period as they show the terminus of the GN&C branch as being Finsbury Park with a note that the Victoria line is under construction and the service will be cut back to Drayton Park, which happened in October 1964.

 

The set comprises 10012-012256-12027-11012. The A DM 10012 was the first '38 stock DM to enter service with its companion D DM 11012, and the last to leave revenue service. the original 11012 was written off in an accident at London Road depot (on the Bakerloo) in 1983 and was replaced by 11178 renumbered 11012.

 

Some years ago, the LT Museum commissioned EFE Gilbow to produce a 4 car set with the running numbers of the preserved set and the destination of Amersham and Metropolitan as the line. It is to the usual EFE Gilbow standard,  except that the fleet numbers of the A and D DMs were transposed and 10012 is on the D DM and 11012 is on the A DM.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by GoingUnderground

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

Do we then agree, that this model which does up to 25mph with a following wind and down a gradient,is _defective_?

No. Just that Bachmann appear to have chosen gear ratios suitable for its nominal "in tunnel" running speed, and forgot that there are stretches of above ground running on the Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Northern lines. Whether the gear ratios were chosen because of the power, or lack of it, from the motors, or whether they wanted to make sure that it could handle ramps up from tunnels is another question.

[Jeff Smith]

15 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

As far as I know it is Train Red as the fleet numbers are in gold, not white.

Well, I certainly accept your assessment having seen it in person but it looks bright in the photo.

[PeterStiles]

37 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

chosen gear ratios suitable for its nominal "in tunnel" running speed

Ok.

I'll just have to build more tunnels...

[Wickham Green too]

Save yourself the bother - just TELL people there's an underground layout beneath the lawn ..... I doubt if anyone will dig it up to check ! 🙃

[letterspider]

If anyone wants an EFE 1938 tube stock with directional lighting, there is one on eBay

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145062916232?hash=item21c66c7088:g:EYAAAOSwIr5kQ62j&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4MkvpXT%2F7dRcYcWzksycTPMMrJ5GsJuDW9RkQn0NJXf82HyAhx12KKv3EXvr4I9yTZjgQVnNPoy8him8J%2FKgKq59w3sCjukKDkSYG2D3rb4aLEOdZ51xnSu3BI%2Frgud43pseXTx%2FxxSvym84l%2BqnBuPfCW9aaj5%2FbBXg11W%2FACIOHq4kVtbFat54idT6SjFKLHoij7sbbWtEgD5bnw%2FKR0Bq6%2BB1sXezgzJ246u%2FcEO%2FHgGkyRVc0Fy7OntbIYpSyMfNJ01sBTjZgB39U%2FUwUr%2Bpsi%2F1Nu%2FDkSEWjf4LQ%2BZ7|tkp%3ABk9SR9KCm9D_YQ

 

not bad for 7 coaches

[Gwiwer]

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

9 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

As far as I know it is Train Red as the fleet numbers are in gold, not white.

Well, I certainly accept your assessment having seen it in person but it looks bright in the photo.

"Train Red" does appear bright when freshly applied.  Those of us who remember the difference between that and "Bus Red" which is a slightly lighter and brighter shade may well be recalling the weathered appearance and often as not the dimly-lit sighting of same in a tube station lit by a handful of incandescent bulbs.  

 

EHO (Extra-Heavy Overhaul) units which were intended to outlast the main fleet were repainted in Bus Red, given stock numbers in smaller white vinyl stickers and the roundel symbol replacing the gold-block underlined LONDON TRANSPORT name on the driving cars.  It was occasionally possible to see a train with one unit in each shade of red which showed the difference quite clearly (not least because the Bus Red unit would have been recently overhauled / painted) but the illumination of many tube stations before the mid 1970s and the widespread adoption of fluorescent lighting gave the trains a darker appearance.  When they emerged into daylight even the standard Train Red livery was usually quite a bright - if usually well weathered - shade.  You would need to have seen a train and a bus side by side to really pick the difference.

 

My opinion is that the Museum unit is in Train Red.  We travelled in NDM 12027 which has 1960s line diagrams and adverts, possibly replicas, which would not be contemporaneous with a Bus Red livery. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Gwiwer

[andyman7]

I agree that the preserved unit is train red - the EHO units in bus red were a brighter shade. I realise that due to the vagaries of film the difference may not be obvious in the below two photos, one on digital media from last week and one from a print I took in 1985.

[4railsman]

14 hours ago, letterspider said:

If anyone wants an EFE 1938 tube stock with directional lighting, there is one on eBay

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145062916232?hash=item21c66c7088:g:EYAAAOSwIr5kQ62j&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4MkvpXT%2F7dRcYcWzksycTPMMrJ5GsJuDW9RkQn0NJXf82HyAhx12KKv3EXvr4I9yTZjgQVnNPoy8him8J%2FKgKq59w3sCjukKDkSYG2D3rb4aLEOdZ51xnSu3BI%2Frgud43pseXTx%2FxxSvym84l%2BqnBuPfCW9aaj5%2FbBXg11W%2FACIOHq4kVtbFat54idT6SjFKLHoij7sbbWtEgD5bnw%2FKR0Bq6%2BB1sXezgzJ246u%2FcEO%2FHgGkyRVc0Fy7OntbIYpSyMfNJ01sBTjZgB39U%2FUwUr%2Bpsi%2F1Nu%2FDkSEWjf4LQ%2BZ7|tkp%3ABk9SR9KCm9D_YQ

 

not bad for 7 coaches

 

Looked very interesting, especially as it is a proper 7-car train, but so many decoders installed was overkill imho. But it didn't attract a single bid.

Would probably have sold if it hadn't been converted for DCC as that knocked out all those people that still run conventional 12vDC as they couldn't run the train on their layouts.

 

BTW, has anyone seen any of the original BRASS Metromodels tubestock for sale anywhere recently?

 

Thanks

4railsman

[GoingUnderground]

It is unwise to judge the colour of anything unless toy have th original item in front of you. What you see on your computer, tablet or smartphone is entirely dependent on how accurately the screen can reproduce colours, never mind the accuracy of the image sensor that captured the picture in the first place.

 

Also, I've noticed that pictures look brighter when seen on a screen that they do when printed out. This was a factor that I used to have to adjust for when I used to pull together images to accompany articles in a couple of society newsletters that I used to "typeset". If I didn't lighten them, the pictures would look unexpectedly dark in the printed version of the newsletters.

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, 4railsman said:

Would probably have sold if it hadn't been converted for DCC as that knocked out all those people that still run conventional 12vDC as they couldn't run the train on their layouts.

I don't think that makes any difference.

You can always take the decoders out and sell them on.