Hornby 2022 Range - pre-announcement frothing - now closed

[TomScrut]

51 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think the market actually has changed , maybe because of all the new entrants and competition , so while we will see reliveries I think Hornby have to maintain momentum on new product .Quite what that will be I haven’t got a clue as all the big steam locos are essentially done .  Hornby do like big steamies though .

 

The  downside to this that models are expected to sell in their initial release , probably also cover their tooling costs which drives the price up . It may also be that volumes are a fraction of what they used to be even 10 years ago , also increasing price . But I think Hornby 2022 will be no less ambitious than 2020 and 2021 , parts of which have still to be delivered .  The 2022 announcement will have things  that will deliver in the year , but let’s face it some are unlikely to turn up until 2023/24 

 

I think it depends really on what variations there has been on an item, how many there is/was and how long they have been about. Mostly with locos, but some coaches and wagons this will work with too. Most of my interest is in diesel/electric so won't comment on steam.

 

The issue Hornby has IMO is they don't have a top end model of any of the "cash cow" type diesel locos, by that I mean what I expect will be far and away the most popular classes, the 37, 47 and 66.

 

On diesel locos they have tooling for that probably are on tier 2 (in terms of popularity) beneath the above, I think the 56, 31 and 60 sit there. They have done a good job on the 60 this last year I think in terms of liveries. 2 DB, 1 DC and 2 GBRF all currently on the network (of which I have 2, might get a 3rd if/when discounted), but Cavalex are doing the 56 and pretty much every year in these lists we get requests for variants of 31s which as far as I am aware when they do them they seem to go. So demand is there I think for those 3.

 

OTOH in agreement with your point, there are a lot of things on the market now that will need to have paid for themselves first time round. I expect Heljan would have had to with Falcon, Kestrel and Lion would have to for example. Accurascale KUAs are another. Realistically nobody ever should need more than 1 (pack) of those items.

[DutyDruid]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

After direct communications with Hornby (Mr K) , my experience is that Hornby pretty much don't give a damn about the D&E range.

Two issues were simply brushed under the carpet with:

"the project guy in charge of that has left, so we don't know anything/can't do anything about it"

and "it is what it is". (And that was after about 9 months of intermittent replies from them.

 

Gulp!

 

That reminds me of that appalling interview that the Lima CEO did shortly before they bit the big one.

 

Challenged about the "useless" pancake motors Lima were using and the fact that there was a flourishing trade in fitting CD player motors in their place his response was "...but we're building models for display cases, why do we need to fit decent motors..."

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

I think it depends really on what variations there has been on an item, how many there is/was and how long they have been about. Mostly with locos, but some coaches and wagons this will work with too. Most of my interest is in diesel/electric so won't comment on steam.

 

The issue Hornby has IMO is they don't have a top end model of any of the "cash cow" type diesel locos, by that I mean what I expect will be far and away the most popular classes, the 37, 47 and 66.

 

On diesel locos they have tooling for that probably are on tier 2 (in terms of popularity) beneath the above, I think the 56, 31 and 60 sit there. They have done a good job on the 60 this last year I think in terms of liveries. 2 DB, 1 DC and 2 GBRF all currently on the network (of which I have 2, might get a 3rd if/when discounted), but Cavalex are doing the 56 and pretty much every year in these lists we get requests for variants of 31s which as far as I am aware when they do them they seem to go. So demand is there I think for those 3.

 

OTOH in agreement with your point, there are a lot of things on the market now that will need to have paid for themselves first time round. I expect Heljan would have had to with Falcon, Kestrel and Lion would have to for example. Accurascale KUAs are another. Realistically nobody ever should need more than 1 (pack) of those items.

Heljan did do a second run of Falcon, though and IIRC they didn't hang around exceptionally long.

 

John

[scottrains29]

I really hope Hornby bring out the much requested mk2f RFB coach.

 

I know Bachmann produce one but I'd prefer to keep all coaches in a rake from the same manufacturer. It's almost pointless Hornby producing the recent Virgin/Intercity mk2f BSO without the required RFB at the opposite end of the rake.

The RFB would be a perfect choice for Hornby as there are so many liveries to go through that would complement Hornby's existing range (various Intercity, Virgin, Anglia, various Caledonian Sleeper, Network Rail and numerous Railtour operators).

[Mark Saunders]

Aim low and expect disappointment!

 

[adb968008]

Maybe the Thames will freeze and Hornby will give us a GLV to go with its mk2’s/ Railroad 73… plus a Network Rail dbso for its yellow mk2’s / Railroad 37 and Colas 67’s.

 

 

 

 

[letterspider]

I would prefer Bachmann to do the DBSO - even with a price point around £110 it works out a lot less than a repaint of their existing liveries (I know from experience) - and you also get very nice DCC lighting and separately fitted handrails

 

What I don't understand is why Hornby haven't been producing TTS chips for the Class 56, Class 59, Class 87 (okay it is tight in there), Class 90, 91 and the APT - they already have been producing the chips in volume - they just need to put different sounds on them.

[Legend]

There are a number of rolling stock items that are possible 

 

A Stanier CK would complete the range of Staniers and they could relaunch the whole range in LMS Crimson , Br Crimson and Cream and Maroon . 
 

Gresley end vestibule stock , with correct tumblehome this time . We tend to think of the Gresley as new but it’s actually sometime since they introduced the range , so perhaps time for a revamp 

 

Coronation stock  . People have been crying out for it . If they can make 14 car APTs and full length Coronation Scots then surely a Coronation is possible . Probably they could get away with price premium too . 

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

A quick search so I may have missed some items and make have status wrong.

 

2020

Delivered - Thompson A2/2 A2/3, Hush Hush, Mk1 RB

Somewhere in Shipping - APT

? - Coronation Scott

Awaiting delivery (have seen at least decorated samples) - 91

Missing - 2MT 78xx

 

2021

Delivered - Maunsell coaches, 4&6 wheel coaches

Samples of some sort - 88DS, Mk4 coaches and DVT, 9F (rumoured to be in next engine shed)

Missing - P2

 

Based on that they have delivered a reasonable amount, not a lot still in the tooling or earlier stage.

 

So I don't think there really is any reason to expect Hornby to cut back on new tool stuff given they have either delivered or are well along on most of the last 2 years of stuff.

 

Now add in Rapido's official entry in the UK market, Accurascale has an extensive range of items for 2022, Cavalex and Revolution are making progress, Bachmann appears to be back in the game, plus Rails of Sheffield and Dapol and potentially Kernow, Hattons and Sonic - Hornby really can't afford to cede market to the significant competition currently in the UK market.

The Maunsells delivered in 2021 were new runs of existing models. We did get the superb bogie GLV, though.

 

The new types and previously uncovered liveries aren't expected for another month or two.

 

John

Edited January 1, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Network Rail dbso

 

Assuming it isn't railroad spec, it would be a good seller I think. Would need lighting and be DCC ready for a lot of people to entertain it I think.

[newbryford]

8 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Assuming it isn't railroad spec, it would be a good seller I think. Would need lighting and be DCC ready for a lot of people to entertain it I think.

 

You could get away with an 8-pin socket on a RTOV (ex-DBSO).

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

There are a number of rolling stock items that are possible 

 

A Stanier CK would complete the range of Staniers and they could relaunch the whole range in LMS Crimson , Br Crimson and Cream and Maroon . 
 

Gresley end vestibule stock , with correct tumblehome this time . We tend to think of the Gresley as new but it’s actually sometime since they introduced the range , so perhaps time for a revamp 

 

Coronation stock  . People have been crying out for it . If they can make 14 car APTs and full length Coronation Scots then surely a Coronation is possible . Probably they could get away with price premium too . 

 

The difference with the Coronation and Coronation Scot is the Coronation Scot coaches are all normal coaches with pressure ventilation. 

 

The Coronation coaches were all built in very small numbers. There's also the issue of articulation. If they did make one I doubt they will be cheap as you can't just churn them out in normal liveries. I would expect a price of something like £150 a pair.

 

Funnily enough there are some "new" photos been added to Steve Bank's website.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/418-the-coronation

 

 

Jason

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, letterspider said:

What I don't understand is why Hornby haven't been producing TTS chips for the Class 56, Class 59, Class 87 (okay it is tight in there), Class 90, 91 and the APT - they already have been producing the chips in volume - they just need to put different sounds on them.

Pretty much what "New Bryford" said. Hornby unfortunately have a limited interest in D&E.

 

I find it very strange that, unless this announcement is a turnaround in policy, Hornby just aren't taking heed of their competitors concerning wagons. The HUO model didn't suit my needs but ably demonstrated what Accurascale were capable of, so when the 21 tonners were announced I ordered direct from them - six 21 tonners and six Coil As. Hornby could very easily produce a 21T hopper body, both as built and as rebodied, and plonk it on their Tope chassis - Topes being cut down 21 Tonners anyway, 

 

A decent LMS generation 12T van on an LMS type underframe - which of course lasted into the BR blue diesel era - if planned properly would be the seed for many many wagons Hornby could offer, and maybe even increase market share    

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Pretty much what "New Bryford" said. Hornby unfortunately have a limited interest in D&E.

 

A decent LMS generation 12T van on an LMS type underframe - which of course lasted into the BR blue diesel era - if planned properly would be the seed for many many wagons Hornby could offer, and maybe even increase market share    

I don't have the space or the inclination to expand into the post-steam era, but there aren't enough "tick" icons on the planet to express my level of agreement with your final paragraph.

 

John

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, newbryford said:

Only 9 days before we can start a Hornby 2023 wishlist............. Sorry Andy!

Copy and paste last years.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, letterspider said:

 

What I don't understand is why Hornby haven't been producing TTS chips for the Class 56, Class 59, Class 87 (okay it is tight in there), Class 90, 91 and the APT - they already have been producing the chips in volume - they just need to put different sounds on them.

I reckons your going to get one of those on your list, maybe even a whole new loco to put it in.

 

91 without TTS would be odd, 90 cant be far behind, we saw a 73 chip being tested in the TV series, so its on horizon.. the 59 EP still stood out as unexplained in its appearance for me…

Edited January 1, 2022 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

I'm not 100% convinced that retoolings of already good models that were last tooled during this century are guaranteed to improve them or make them better value for money.  As most current RTR is not a million miles away from being as 'good' as it is reasonable to expect from volume produced models at the pricing level that the British market insists on, I think we may be entering a period in which retoolings are done in order to adopt cost-cut production engineering, and thus increase profit margins  This may result in toolings that offer us no real advantage over the previous one, especially as the manufacturers will take the profit and not pass savings on to us, and could even result in models that are inferior to their previous iterations.

 

We have become accustomed to the concept that 'new tooling' equals 'better model', and the marketing people have not been slow to realise this and exploit it; we happily but not always wittingly play our part by constantly demanding new toolings of already very good models simply because they have not been retooled for some time and therefore must perforce need retooling.  The usual method of production is to order items in batches, and then re-order when the previous order is running out of stock, and the manufacturers (who don't actually manufacture anything but contract it out to Chinese production and assembly facilities in production slots) have to shift the model on to retailers as quickly as possible to save money on warehousing despite the models arriving in batches.  The retailers are expected to shoulder the burden of stocking the models until they are sold.  Batch production has the advantage for the manufacturer that improvements and minor retoolings can be introduced with the next batch.

 

It still feels a little strange and unintuitive to modellers of my generation, who were brought up in an era where the big manufacturers presented a smaller range of models that were not retooled for years or even decades but were continually available.  I prefer the modern way, which supplies me with a greater variety of highly detailed models that run well, but sometimes I have to be patient and to moderate my wishlisting as not everything is available all the time and you have to buy stuff when it is available.

 

I was thinking about this the other day in regard to the Bachmann 94xx (yes, I know this is the Hornby thread) and my other Bachmann panniers.  The Bachmann 57xx is a retool of the old Mainline/Replica model, with better detailing and a much better mech, and the 8750 is a purely Bachmann tooling using the same mech.  The 56xx is a similarly reworked Mainline model with a better mech, and all of these models were put on to the market some time ago now.  The Mainline versions did not have cab detail.  So the 94xx, much more recent, can be regarded as a measure of how much toolings have improved during the time the 57xx/8750/56xx/45xx/4575 et al have been with us.  The 94xx has a new coreless motor which can presumably be easily retrofitted to the earlier models, which is more responsive to the controller, and a firebox glow which is to my view gimmicky and needs to be more yellow.  It serves a secondary function as a current draw indicator lamp.

 

So, how much improved is the 94xx, presumably an indicator of the standard of new toolings for the early models, over them?  Well, not so improved as to make me clamour for retooled earlier Baccy locos; they are fine as they are.  Perhaps lamp brackets on the panniers...

 

Hornby are not quite in the same position.  The brutal truth is that they are not producing models to Bachmanns' standards of steady slow running and reliable pickups, though more recent items compete well in terms of detail.  So there is perhaps more scope for improvement by retooling of Hornby locos, but it is pretty marginal, and I'd prefer to see the investment put into better QC.  Some Hornby is very good indeed; hard to fault the W4 Peckett for example though it took a good bit of running in, but my current production 5101 does not run as well as my Bachmanns, unsteady at low speeds, requires more cleaning attention to wheels and pickups, and the pickups need frequent attention.  The Bachmanns run perfectly in near-daily use for months on end and require the mimimum of attention, bit of a clean about once a year. 

 

Can't comment about the other makes as I don't have any of their locos, except for a Hornby Austerity J94 which is originally a Dapol item I believe.  It runs well, superb crawler and very effectively geared, but is very track sensitive and needs dead level smoothly joined track to give it's best; a bit of vertical play in the centre drivers would be useful. 

 

Sell me a model loco that is close to scale allowing for the 00 compromises, and runs well, particularly at low speeds, and reliably starts and stops smoothly, and that I don't have to constantly clean and adjust, and I'm happy to do the detail work myself!  But that's just me...

[Zunnan]

38 minutes ago, Covkid said:

A decent LMS generation 12T van on an LMS type underframe - which of course lasted into the BR blue diesel era - if planned properly would be the seed for many many wagons Hornby could offer, and maybe even increase market share    

 

Couldn't agree more. The big challenge there is with so much variance across the fleet, where do you start and where do you call it a day? Fitted and unfitted for sure, but then there are vented and un-vented in both which can simplistically break down to all planked and steel end. Then there are all of the different brace types, horizontal or vertical planking on doors, ply, XP rated...Kitbashing them has kept us occupied for decades, but I'd love nothing more than to see this family of vans tackled!

[Chrisr40]

18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

a Dapol item I believe.  It runs well, superb crawler and very effectively geared, but is very track sensitive and needs dead level smoothly joined track to give it's bes

The original models had a sprung centre axle, why it was moved away from who knows? Lockdown has sent me a little J94 crazy...I think I have most of them now.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Legend said:

There are a number of rolling stock items that are possible 

 

A Stanier CK would complete the range of Staniers and they could relaunch the whole range in LMS Crimson , Br Crimson and Cream and Maroon . 
 

Gresley end vestibule stock , with correct tumblehome this time . We tend to think of the Gresley as new but it’s actually sometime since they introduced the range , so perhaps time for a revamp 

 

Coronation stock  . People have been crying out for it . If they can make 14 car APTs and full length Coronation Scots then surely a Coronation is possible . Probably they could get away with price premium too . 

With all the ECML front line passenger motive power they have passing through the catalogue and their annual programmes year after year the ECML streamlined trains must be very low hanging fruit as far as  Hornby are conccerned.   And the beaver tail observation coach will give them, and modellers, some potential future options.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Zunnan said:

 

Couldn't agree more. The big challenge there is with so much variance across the fleet, where do you start and where do you call it a day? Fitted and unfitted for sure, but then there are vented and un-vented in both which can simplistically break down to all planked and steel end. Then there are all of the different brace types, horizontal or vertical planking on doors, ply, XP rated...Kitbashing them has kept us occupied for decades, but I'd love nothing more than to see this family of vans tackled!

On reflection, I think this might be better dealt with by another brand that sells wagons in packs of three.

 

One pack, three vans, from three different diagrams with two in fitted-from-new form with the 8-shoe clasp-brake underframe; and one either unfitted or as converted to 4-shoe AVB under BR; depending on livery.

 

Get it right, regularly ring the changes, and they could make a decent return off it for decades.

 

The altered bracing applied to most by BR will make doing both LMS and BR packs a bit more difficult, but modern mould design should be able to handle that even if it does make the models a little more expensive.

 

John

Edited January 1, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[DutyDruid]

Just to throw something else into the mixture, and harking back to several things said further up this thread about the following:

• Why US outline is cheaper
• producing models for the end user to assemble for himself
• Level of detail

Talking to friends in the last few days, apparently several decades back it wasn't unknown for US firms to do the same.  Apparently you could buy cleaned up mouldings from the likes of Athern and assemble your own sets of freight cars for a fraction of the cost of the finished cars because the end user was doing the final stage of the production process.

 

IMPORTANT: I have no practical experience, just repeating what I was told.

 

Back before the Old King died (i.e. when I was a teenager) I had a couple of Triang-Hornby CKD models.  CKD I hear you ask!  Completely Knocked Down.  Possibly Triang got the idea from the likes of the US producers who used to do this"kit form" production.

 

The one I remember most was assembling the EM2 Electra kit where - iirc - I had to do everything including fitting the rather delicate copper (or were they brass) strips onto the moulding of the motor bogie.  There were also a lot of the old Mk1 coaches in the mix, I'm sure others will remember what else there was in the range.

 

And there we were saying "models that the end user gets to put together".  There's nothing new under the sun. 

 

That said, having had to strip a couple of Hornby's Maunsell 48' rebuilds to fit working tail lights (and a Bachmann Pill Box brake van too) I somehow question the wisdom of trying that trick with today's models.  I think some of the moulded tabs wouldn't last long in the hands of some less experienced and capable modellers and given an already dodgy approach to customer satisfaction as has also been mentioned here it might not end well if they tried.

[The Johnster]

Trix did CKD as well; I had one of their self-assembly Westerns.  Locos had less components in those days, and assemby was pretty straightforward, no glueing and screwdriver with the kit IIRC. 
 

It was a way to avoid purchase tax, the forerunner of VAT. 

[mdvle]

28 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

Talking to friends in the last few days, apparently several decades back it wasn't unknown for US firms to do the same.  Apparently you could buy cleaned up mouldings from the likes of Athern and assemble your own sets of freight cars for a fraction of the cost of the finished cars because the end user was doing the final stage of the production process.

 

Nope.

 

Athearn made kits (affectionately called "blue box kits" by those old enough to remember them) that were relatively easy to assemble - even their locos came as kits to be assembled.

 

The only thing decades ago that came assembled was the cheap "toys" from companies like Tyco, Bachmann, and Life Like.

 

Then around 1990 Life Like started a new brand - Proto 2000 - and created kits like the more serious model railway companies, offering models with more detail and accuracy.  And at some point shortly after that Life Like did an experiment and had the kits assembled in China so they could be sold assembled, and sales exploded.

 

And that was that, going forward kits were endangered and eventually even the blue box kits ended.

 

But the key points were once they moved to fully assembled product, everything shifted to China which meant there was nothing to purchase to assemble yourself anymore.

 

There would never have been a period where Athearn offered both kits and RTR - though the "hobby shop" nature of many peoples layout space (and huge inventories of some past hobby shops) means you can still buy blue box kits today, though they are finally getting rarer.  This perhaps is what lead to your friends confusion.

 

28 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

That said, having had to strip a couple of Hornby's Maunsell 48' rebuilds to fit working tail lights (and a Bachmann Pill Box brake van too) I somehow question the wisdom of trying that trick with today's models.  I think some of the moulded tabs wouldn't last long in the hands of some less experienced and capable modellers and given an already dodgy approach to customer satisfaction as has also been mentioned here it might not end well if they tried.

 

Designing a model to be sold as a kit to be assembled at home leads to different design decisions than designing a model to batch made on an assembly line in China.

 

[DutyDruid]

4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It was a way to avoid purchase tax, the forerunner of VAT.

 

True, I had forgotten that aspect of it.  Couldn't get away with it today though, I'm sure VAT would be applied.