A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.

[Edge]

14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Film companies generally seem to take a very "black and white" view over IP issues and failing to act robustly over it is seen as storing up further problems for the future, so we will see.

 

I suspect that one strongly worded letter from StudioCanal's legal eagles might be enough to change Hornby's attitude quite markedly if they want to minimise any fallout from this.

 

Were they to put up too much resistance, the next step might be an injunction preventing them selling anything with the word "Thunderbolt" on the box or in any publicity..... 

 

My guess is that Hornby will blink first and some sort of compromise may emerge that satisfies StudioCanal but will not be wholly to the liking of either Rapido or Hornby, e.g. not making Hornby scrap their tooling but making them give Rapido a "head start" on release dates.

 

John

i would expect that the loco would be named ‘lion’ or have no name at all and that something like the house being painted a different colour would be along the lines of acceptable if such a compromise were to occur. But even if Hornby has done nothing wrong legally, this is a big problem PR wise . We should all be marvelling at steam generators, turbomotives and black 5s. But we aren’t…

Edited January 11, 2022 by Edge

[Dunsignalling]

There is also the issue of what may or not be in Hornby's 2022 catalogue presentation.

 

If StudioCanal have got their skates on, we may see the release of that deferred while they sort out the details.

 

John

Edited January 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Helmdon]

27 minutes ago, Legend said:

I just find it inconceivable that a large company would deliberately tread in a minefield without first knowing the route out. 

I'd think you'd have more of a point if Hornby was a large company... It's basically a design unit, and some head office staff, with (in the great scheme of things), a tiny market capitalisation, thrashing around as the largest small fish in quite a small pond.

 

Having worked in companies of five times the size of Hornby (by revenue), they didn't even have in-house legal... Not saying it's the same in this case, but Hornby are hardly a city firm,

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

I expect StudioCanal will demand the box art and Hornby PR be tweaked to remove specific references to 'Titfield Thunderbolt'

 

If a compromise is reached then I suspect it will be with the actual models themselves in the sense that they might 'overlook' move specific things like 'Dan's House' appearing on the well wagon provided its not described as such (i.e call it the generic sounding 'house wagon') for instance.

 

 

Or make the house wagon the 4-wheeler body on an ex-Airfix Lowmac as they did before....

[Aire Head]

12 minutes ago, Edge said:

We should all be marvelling at steam generators, turbomotives and black 5s. But we aren’t…

Edited 5 minutes ago by Edge

 

This is definitely the worst part so far for Hornby in that what should have been a big announcement with new developments has now descended into something which has distracted from the big news.

 

Sure it makes some people like Mr Moy double down on their support for Hornby (or on their dislike of Rapido) but it seems to be generating a lot more antipathy. Meaning people who weren't happy with Hornby are now convinced in an embargo on their product or people like myself who were relatively neutral now feel a degree of antipathy towards Hornby.

 

I somehow doubt it will turn out to be an earth-shattering event or that it will severely undermine either Rapido or Hornbys margins in a major way but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and certainly isn't healthy for the hobby as a whole.

[phil-b259]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

 

Or make the house wagon the 4-wheeler body on an ex-Airfix Lowmac as they did before....

 

The ex GWR well wagon used in the Titfield is fair game for any manufacturer and does not need an IP licence to make so Hornby are OK with that.

 

Even a 'house / building on a wagon' is not an exclusively Titfield thing - its making an exact copy of the Titfield one which is an issue. Tweak the 'house' design and the problem is solved.

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The ex GWR well wagon used in the Titfield is fair game for any manufacturer and does not need an IP licence to make so Hornby are OK with that.

 

Even a 'house / building on a wagon' is not an exclusively Titfield thing - its making an exact copy of the Titfield one which is an issue. Tweak the 'house' design and the problem is solved.

 

Yes, but I reckon it might need to be recognisably "not Dan's House" so a bit more than a tweak. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Helmdon]

I think we need to be more out of the box on this - I go for Lion pulling a Blackpool tramcar and then a Toad body on a lowmac.

 

Gentlemen, the Driffield Thunderbox - as nearly seen on tv.

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Or make the house wagon the 4-wheeler body on an ex-Airfix Lowmac as they did before....

Ah yes, now there's an idea!

 

In line with Mr Kohler's current fetish for knocking out old stuff as nostalgic collector's items, Hornby could use all the original tooling for their 60th anniversary set (or whatever they've got that is approximately right) in a replica box and promote it as the 10th anniversary of the release of Hornby's Titfield Thunderbolt set. Some mugs would no doubt buy it...

 

 

[lapford34102]

Whatever your view on this somewhat crazy situation what we'll probably need is a set of 4mm Lawyer figures.

 

Stu

[chris p bacon]

Having worked for a family owned company that was on the receiving end of IP/Copyright litigation,  it's quite obvious that 99% of posters have no idea of the law and how it is enforced. Those that think that a few 'tweaks' will solve this are deluded. It is going to cost one party or the other a lot of money, enough to make a difference to future output.

 

In the case of the company I worked for, the issue essentially revolved around one word which was the family name. It was eventually settled by the use of an apostophe and 'S' to make the surname plural (they were brothers) the date of incorporation of the brothers company was before that of the complainers. But that company had a higher profile and therefore was seen to be the loser.  

In initial arbitration a suggestion from the 'judge' was that the brothers could change their name by Deed poll to avoid confusion.  Although the brothers 'won' the costs involved were the biggest contribution to their bankruptcy not long after (I had left by then) 

[Hibelroad]

The only winner in all of this could be James May if he sees the chance to make another "blood on the carpet" documentary.

[Clearwater]

45 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

This is definitely the worst part so far for Hornby in that what should have been a big announcement with new developments has now descended into something which has distracted from the big news.

 

Sure it makes some people like Mr Moy double down on their support for Hornby (or on their dislike of Rapido) but it seems to be generating a lot more antipathy. Meaning people who weren't happy with Hornby are now convinced in an embargo on their product or people like myself who were relatively neutral now feel a degree of antipathy towards Hornby.

 

I somehow doubt it will turn out to be an earth-shattering event or that it will severely undermine either Rapido or Hornbys margins in a major way but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and certainly isn't healthy for the hobby as a whole.

 

If you were cynical, you could argue that with an underwhelming list of new items (partly driven by the 2021 backlog), the creation of the "film" range to give cover for the inspired by item and the inevitable row draws attention away from the lack of other new goodies.  If you take the volume of posts on this thread and similar ones compared to the Black Five thread, it is clear what is the big issue on the 2022 range.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Hornby thought all publicity was good publicity and that they could get further publicity in a month or so time by issuing a statement of their own.  "We had been keen to bring our inspired by the TTTB to market but were surprised and dismayed by the negative comments we received due to the presence of a competing product.  Having reviewed the position, we are taking the step to withdraw our product.  We wish our competitor luck with their sales." or similar.  Suddenly they're being magnanimous and seeking to be "the good guys."   And get another round of free publicity for their products.

[NHY 581]

43 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

Whatever your view on this somewhat crazy situation what we'll probably need is a set of 4mm Lawyer figures.

 

Stu

 

 

A 4mm George Blakeworth perhaps..? 

[billbedford]

9 hours ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

No track & controller included, packaging not very bright or eye-catching, bit pricey for an impulse buy and imho the included models are probably too delicate for an average new to modelling supermarket customer. 

What has been offered to the public will be not necessarily the same as what is offered to corporate buyers at the Toy Fair. 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Hornby thought all publicity was good publicity and that they could get further publicity in a month or so time by issuing a statement of their own.  "We had been keen to bring our inspired by the TTTB to market but were surprised and dismayed by the negative comments we received due to the presence of a competing product.  Having reviewed the position, we are taking the step to withdraw our product.  We wish our competitor luck with their sales." or similar.  Suddenly they're being magnanimous and seeking to be "the good guys."   And get another round of free publicity for their products.

 

 

Exactly the sort of damage-limitation exercise I expect to see once Hornby tot up the possible repercussions of sticking with their current stated position. 

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

The only winner in all of this could be James May if he sees the chance to make another "blood on the carpet" documentary.

 

Jointly presented with Sam? 

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

There is a certain irony in MoY newly entering the debate about Rapido and Hornby, getting what he considers to be “hostile treatment” from the established participants and complaining to the authorities about it, don’t you think?

 

Someone could say, “Boohoo MoY, We’ve been here longer than you have. Accept it and move on.”

 

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

Now that was funny…..and very apt…….no not APT, that’s another thread entirely…..or is it? 

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You rather miss the point.

 

As has been explained before - if Studio Canal let this pass and someone else does a 'inspired by xxxx' stunt with one of their more popular (or future) films then Studio Canal will LOSE in court should they wish to intervene as the Tiffield case can be cited as a legal proof that the film company doesn't mind such things!

 

Therefore while on the face of it, a spat over Titfield Train models may not be in itself be unduly troubling to Studio Canal or sections of the railway model community - what happens next could have huge ramifications for the toy and film industries at large when it comes to merchandising rights.

 

 

"As explained before" - was that by experienced IP lawyers who have a detailed understanding of the issues that none of us are privy to? I am not an IP lawyer but I have dealt with IP issues for a high profile multi-billion pound organisation that in its history lost IP rights over an asset in a well documented case and now manages them rather more proactively. I am unclear how anyone is jumping to the conclusion Studio Canal have to act or else they lose in court.

 

It is a big leap to be suggesting that Hornby putting the words "inspired by" on some packaging is some earth shattering piece of game changing IP case law in the making. For example I have yet to see any discussion regarding the law on 'incidental use', which Hornby's actions appear to be at first glance.

 

It is quite possible for Studio Canal to write to Hornby with a strongly worded letter that says we have noted your use of the wording and consider it a breach of our IP but given the trivial nature of it we do not consider it worth pursuing at this time (and English courts prefer court hearings to be avoided if possible) but we reserve the right to take action if we feel approrpiate at any time to reclaim profits etc, and if you repeat this trick we will make a large claim against you and/or send you a bill for £x and tie you up in legal action for the next 5 years. That in itself can be sufficient to protect their IP. That then gives Hornby de facto consent with the threat of the kitchen sink being thrown at them in the future whilst asserting Studio Canal's IP rights so they can demonstrate they have acted in any future case. That then puts the onus on Hornby to then deny SC's rights.

 

But the proof will be in the pudding as to what SC do and whether there is any publicity around it.

[BR Blue]

5 hours ago, Darius43 said:

I’m always sceptical of the motives of first-posters that turn up in the middle of threads like this with aggressive and confrontational posts.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

I am too and I dont know why Simon is not using his real name.

[ruggedpeak]

23 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

The only winner in all of this could be James May if he sees the chance to make another "blood on the carpet" documentary.

There generally isn't much blood as Sam tends to be more at risk of electrocting himself, more a flash and a burning smell......

[GordonC]

23 hours ago, 7013 said:

If this is Hornby's attitude to other manufacturers, they have lost a lot of credibility in the modelling world. It is always healthier when we have lots of manufacturers making different models. Hornby are like the playground bully who will take from others. It is not clever marketing or competition, it is a poor decision by Hornby which has rightly seen a backlash from the modelling world. I hope they have the good grace to withdraw the set and leave the field clear, if not, I hope they get their fingers burned in the courts. I would not buy the Hornby version on principle.

 

I think the same about the Hornby Class 91 and Mk4 coaches

[MrTea]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

I think you need to look at the chronology. Rapido have played a straight bat every time and Hornby have repeatedly tried to undermine them - as they have done with other companies and other product releases.

 

Rapido have a legitimate grievance and their video simply said so - that's in no way equivalent to what Hornby are doing. (And they had to make some kind of public response to Hornby's latest attack.)

 

 

From a marketing point of view, this is a really interesting story (and yes, I know it's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things).

 

For Rapido to have released the video yesterday, with the content it contains and at the time that they did means they must have known (more or less) how Hornby were planning to include their Lion/Titfield Thunderbolt model in the 2022 range.

 

I might be wrong, but I can't help but come to the conclusion that this is about more than just this specific collection of models. Surely, it can't possibly be worth the hassle for just this range/license?

 

Only time will tell.

[ruggedpeak]

7 minutes ago, MrTea said:

I might be wrong, but I can't help but come to the conclusion that this is about more than just this specific collection of models.

Yes. This is probably about positioning, point scoring and rutting stags.

 

Knowing a bit about the characters involved on both sides it could all get a bit Boris and Macron before we know it

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, MrTea said:

For Rapido to have released the video yesterday, with the content it contains and at the time that they did means they must have known (more or less) how Hornby were planning to include their Lion/Titfield Thunderbolt model in the 2022 range.

I suspect it was confirmed from sympathetic contacts who were at last weeks press brief that was under embargo.