A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.

[Edge]

I think this is a bit of a bridge too far for Hornby this time. And more’s the pity - superb range of models being announced and I think a good portion of it is going to be drowned out 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Edge

[69843]

I hope Hornby aren't too attached to that "The Railway Children Return" set.....given that's a Studio Canal property.

[wombatofludham]

To be honest the OOC Bedford OB looks like it was made from Milliput so Rapido's OB will wipe the floor with it.

I suppose it will all come down to whether Hornby's "inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" gets them off the hook, and how long copyright lasts for films (isn't it 70 years or so?  I remember Cliff Richard getting upset because his early stuff was running out of copyright and he was still drawing breath).  Either way it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, I was quite interested in the "Lady with the Lamp" set as a rule 1 purchase (would look fun running on Dolgellau and the grockles will love it) but I'm not sure I want to reward possible piracy...

[phil gollin]

.

 

I think that this is just the Law Society hijacking Model Railways as a way into the law as a career.

 

 

.

[rapidoandy]

Regarding the "Lady With The Lamp" it is interesting to note who now owns the Rights to it...

 

British Lion Films - Movie List

Edited January 10, 2022 by rapidoandy

[SRman]

16 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest the OOC Bedford OB looks like it was made from Milliput so Rapido's OB will wipe the floor with it.
...

 

 

 

I agree. The EFE model had a better shape, especially over the cab roof. Dare I mention that Bachmann now have the ownership of that model. 

[Dunsignalling]

I wonder how strong Hornby has gone on "Inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" in their forthcoming catalogue.

 

It'd be "interesting" if they ended up having to pulp the lot.

 

John

Edited January 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Gordon Connell]

19 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I suppose it will all come down to whether Hornby's "inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" gets them off the hook, and how long copyright lasts for films (isn't it 70 years or so?  I remember Cliff Richard getting upset because his early stuff was running out of copyright and he was still drawing breath).  

 

Basically, copyright exists for 70 years after the death of the major contributors to the film. How copyright protects your work: How long copyright lasts - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk). In this case, Charles Crichton alone, the director, died in 1999, so quite some time to go.

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I wonder how strong Hornby has gone on "Inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" in their forthcoming catalogue.

 

It'd be "interesting" if they ended up having to pulp the lot.

 

John

 

Would make the catalogue highly collectable!

[Din]

20 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest the OOC Bedford OB looks like it was made from Milliput so Rapido's OB will wipe the floor with it.

I suppose it will all come down to whether Hornby's "inspired by the Titfield Thunderbolt" gets them off the hook, and how long copyright lasts for films (isn't it 70 years or so?  I remember Cliff Richard getting upset because his early stuff was running out of copyright and he was still drawing breath).  Either way it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, I was quite interested in the "Lady with the Lamp" set as a rule 1 purchase (would look fun running on Dolgellau and the grockles will love it) but I'm not sure I want to reward possible piracy...

 

For films it's 70 years after the death of the director, screenplay author and composer. Charles Chricton (Director) only left us in 1999.T.E.B Clarke (Screenplay) in 1989 and George Auric in 1983. So Thunderbolt doesn't enter the public domain until 2069 (nice).

[Kris]

11 minutes ago, Gordon Connell said:

 

Basically, copyright exists for 70 years after the death of the major contributors to the film. How copyright protects your work: How long copyright lasts - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk). In this case, Charles Crichton alone, the director, died in 1999, so quite some time to go.

Copyright law changed in 1956, before this the laws were different, particularly for films. 

[Dan Hamblin]

I'm sticking with Rapido for all the Titfield Thunderbolt models - very impressed with the quality of their NER Dynamometer car and Stirling Single models plus their ambitions with regards the Titfield range are much higher. They've followed the right process and deserve the rewards that follow.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[billbedford]

Does Hornby market it's products in China?

[ruggedpeak]

Time for a very large bag of popcorn. Lets see what Studio Canal actually do. It would be naïve to assume that Hornby haven't taken some legal advice, as you can see from their packaging they appear to have tried to avoid direct copyright/IP infringements. There are a whole host of issues to be worked through before anyone can decide such a case. Lion is not IP exclusive to the film for example, have Studio Canal vigorously defended the IP previously etc etc.

 

It is guerrilla marketing. A certain stout maker has been being very effective at being closely associated with certain major sporting events despite not having any official contract for years by carefully placed and designed advertising. 

[Din]

25 minutes ago, Kris said:

Copyright law changed in 1956, before this the laws were different, particularly for films. 

 

That still puts it at "life of author+50" by a quick read of the 1911 act as classified by a dramatic work. So if we go by T.E.B Clarke, still places it fairly deep in danger. (2039 for public domain) Never mind the aggresive IP protection attitude of Studio Canal/Vivendi.

[norfolkchinaclay]

The prototype Lion existed before the movie, so I’m guessing Hornby can produce a model of it using original plans (if they exist) or from their own drawings.

 

I simply took Rapidos video as a polite and friendly reminder to potential buyers that they have previously announced their own model and it is (probably) going to be the better one worth waiting for.

 

I personally have no need to purchase either a Hornby or Rapido version as my interest is post 2015, even though I am a fan of the film. Nor am I a collector of anything “collectible” for collecting sake regardless of product quality,  features or accuracy. I know there are plenty who are and many who will probably purchase both manufacturers versions if they come to fruition.

 

It will be interesting to see how this story plays out but I wish Rapido every success with their range of Titfield models (which I feel confident are likely to be the most authentic!)

Edited January 10, 2022 by norfolkchinaclay

[Gordon Connell]

52 minutes ago, Kris said:

Copyright law changed in 1956, before this the laws were different, particularly for films. 

 

It's my understanding that the changes made were retrospective, so 70 years does apply. The Duration of Copyright and Rights in Performances Regulations 1995 (legislation.gov.uk)

[Dunsignalling]

There clearly wouldn't be a problem with the locomotive, so long as it carries the name "Lion".

 

Looking at Hornby's artwork and the fact that one of the sets is "Titfield" in all respects bar the name on the loco. They appear to be (deliberately) sailing as close to the wind as their legal team thinks they can get away with.

 

I'd think the bus will hinder rather than help any defence they may need to mount. Whether Hornby can avoid the need to do that, remains to be seen, but the film industry generally plays hard-ball on IP issues.

 

John

[Covkid]

5 minutes ago, norfolkchinaclay said:

The prototype Lion existed before the movie, so I’m guessing Hornby can produce a model of it using original plans (if they exist) or from their own drawings.

As i understand it Lion was a Liverpool & Manchester railway loco back in the the 1800s.  I have not seen the full coverage of "the other company"s announcement but I not triple packs of L&M sheep wagons, so I assume the Lion could run with those, but bizarrely could the L&M Lion also run with Accurascale's chaldron wagons ?

  

5 minutes ago, norfolkchinaclay said:

I simply took Rapidos video as a polite and friendly reminder to buyers that they have previously announced their own model and it (probably is) going to be the better one worth waiting for.

 

I personally have no need to purchase either the Hornby or Rapido version as my interest is post 2015, even though I am a fan of the film, nor am I a collector of anything “collectible” for collecting sake regardless of quality or accuracy. I know there are plenty who are.

 

It will be interesting to see how this story plays out but I wish Rapido every success with their range of Titfield models (which I am confident will probably be the most authentic!)

 

I agree. Hornby appear to be intimidatory in their approach to this, but I really don't understand why. If any model railway company cares to open their eyes smell the coffee and look around, they will see so many opportunities to increase profit or reduce deficit, depending on where they are financially. Accurascale are scorching a path to the top of the premier division why ? Because they are making what people fancy, and Rapido are rapidly (pun intended) chasing them. Purely  in the numbers game as a transition era modeller,  I might by a Hornby Loriot, there again I might not.  However I have two gunpowder vans on order and may well have more, but certainly don't want or need any L&M sheep wagons.  There are so many Big four > transition era > Pre TOPS BR blue choices to make, and I am sure the Rapido guys have a rather large wish list to go at.  Sadly the Bedford OB doesn't fit in for me, but having bought and recognised the quality of Rapido buses I just want more. 

 

wish you well Rapido     

[Covkid]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

There clearly wouldn't be a problem with the locomotive, so long as it carries the name "Lion".

John

 

Quick question, was Lion one as a class or were there others ?

[MyRule1]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

Trademarks are a separate issue from copyright; back to the armchair.

From my Armchair...

 

You cannot copyright a Film of Book Title, for example ‘Who Dares Wins’  is the title of a number of books. 

 

ref: https://copyrightservice.co.uk/services/knowledge-base/kb_title

 

you can protect "content" or protect the title through a trademark. For example "Harry Potter" is covered by a large number of trademarks, as is Flying Scotsman. This can also cover an image such as Flying Scotman's nameplate. Titfield has not been registered as a Trademark.

 

With the number of licencing deals they have (just look at the back of their catalogues) Hornby will use an IP rights lawyer and be very certain of what they can and cannot do.

 

Obviously this has nothing to do with the morality of the situation, or who started development of the model first .Also Hornby did have a 60th Anniversary pack (R3186) so may have established some rights them.

 

My background is that I did look into chasing Marks and Spencer some years ago about a slogan that I was already using and they teh started using. It was then that I found it was not protected by copyright and as I have not registered it as a trade make I had no grounds.

 

Off my armchair..

[JonathonAG]

19 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There clearly wouldn't be a problem with the locomotive, so long as it carries the name "Lion".

 

Looking at Hornby's artwork and the fact that one of the sets is "Titfield" in all respects bar the name on the loco. 

 

In the movie, the locomotive was named 'Thunderbolt' and this is how it appears to be recreated in Hornby's own product, going by the current images released.  Therefore sailing even closer than you've given them credit for.....

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Quick question, was Lion one as a class or were there others ?

Tiger and Buffalo, I think, but there may have been more. No Thunderbolt.

[boxbrownie]

Without getting into another mass thread debate about the rights and wrongs and legality guesswork.

 

I will not be cancelling my order for both sets from Rapido, and this is just another black mark against Hornby being a not very nice company (put simplistically) or maybe it’s just certain people there think they “own” the model railway world?

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

You cannot copyright a Film of Book Title, for example ‘Who Dares Wins’  is the title of a number of books

 

The issue isn't just related to the copying of the title but also the material from within the production.

 

To use your example while the name of the book "Who Dares Wins" isn't copyrightable you cannot copy what is written within that book in your book of the same title.