Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[wappinghigh]

^Sure.. that's all the models shown so far with the new tooling on the Hornby website.. they all have single domes (Era 4-5).. yet the flagship release (with the smoke) R30225SS has a giant marketing picture showing the later (current) modified double domed Black5.. so it seems it's  buyer beware?! 

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

All the different valves etc aside, Clearly Hornby are going to need to cover two basic chasis/tender combos... Single/double domed (Boiler) and welded/rivetted (Tender).. so far it seems it's just early era.. Just MO 

Edited April 7, 2023 by wappinghigh

[farren]

When I watch the tv program when they covered the Black 5  some of the CAD work was shown with all the differences. Also they did many variations on older model. I would guess they have all the variations covered all three boilers types (not counting the Caprotti)  all chimneys both buffers beams types  muiltiple tenders smoke box doors, 2 loco wheel base lengths covered, and all the other little differences what make the class a nightmare to model. I would not be surprised if they have both the high and low footplate caprotti ready too. 
 

which leaves 4/4767? I would like to think this one is possible. But Hornby didn’t do 46205 with her unique valve gear support bracket so I’m not holding out for this one. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by farren

[wappinghigh]

Where is this "TV program"? Youtube? 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

My knowledge of Black 5s is not great … but the era 5 45157 should have a boiler with combined dome and top feed …45157 … whereas if the Hornby Model is as per their photo it has a seperate dome and top feed making it the Era 11 version
 

This is the problem with modelling preserved era engines, especially if they have had their running number altered or, even worse, have been given a name that existed on the real one when it was in traffic.  They should make it clear that it is a model of a renumbered preserved engine. 

[farren]

10 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Where is this "TV program"? Youtube? 

Try Yesterday tv, it might be available on a catch service or similar 

[farren]

Off the TV programs 

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

BTW I assume the new Hornby release of Glasgow Highlander is fairly close to what is running up there in Scotland right now? But they are selling it as Era 5. So how close (in terms of possible Black5 variations mentioned on previous posts) is the new R30226 Glasgow Highlander to it's original as 45407? Is the model as Highlander was "in Era 5", or as it is now (Era 11)? Have there been any significant changes to the actual locomotive (in the passing decades)? ...similar to the way other private owners bastardised Scotsman over the years... just curious and Thanks! 

 

4472/60103 had been pretty comprehensively "bastardised" decades before any of the private owners got their mitts on it! The process will have begun at its first General overhaul....

 

Part of the reason Hornby can claim to have offered 46 different models of it. 

 

Black Fives, being far more numerous, can be expected to offer many more possible permutations of different features, some of which are likely to have changed every time they went through the works.

 

Any renumbering will have to be carefully considered if one is to achieve a period-correct, authentic model of ones chosen loco. 

 

John

Edited April 8, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[wappinghigh]

So is the actual model R30225SS "44726" going to be double dommed as it is in the advertising picture? (as it would have been when it was retired around 1966)? It is supposed to be from era 5. I assume that photo is from near retirement? It's colour.... thanks

[64F]

1 hour ago, wappinghigh said:

So is the actual model R30225SS "44726" going to be double dommed as it is in the advertising picture? (as it would have been when it was retired around 1966)? It is supposed to be from era 5. I assume that photo is from near retirement? It's colour.... thanks

The prototype photo on Hornby's website is not of the real 44726, but one of the East Lancashire Railway's preserved examples (hence the 26D shed plate).  Aside from the image not looking like a colour photo from that era, the modern electrification flashes (or indeed any flashes on a loco with early crest) give the game away.

 

I think we are fairly safe to assume that the model will be of the single domed late-crest example shown in the pre-production picture, which lacks electrification flashes and is therefore presumably correct for 44726 in late '50s/early '60s condition.

Edited April 16, 2023 by 64F

[MikeParkin65]

53 minutes ago, 64F said:

The prototype photo on Hornby's website is not of the real 44726, but one of the East Lancashire Railway's preserved examples (hence the 26D shed plate).  Aside from the image not looking like a colour photo from that era, the modern electrification flashes (or indeed any flashes on a loco with early crest) give the game away.

 

I think we are fairly safe to assume that the model will be of the single domed late-crest example shown in the pre-production picture, which lacks electrification flashes and is therefore presumably correct for 44726 in late '50s/early '60s condition.

For info there are plenty of examples of early crest locos with electrification warning flashes especially from the LM region but agree with your core point re Hornby not using a period picture of 44726. 

[wappinghigh]

Ok so you are both calling out Hornby for false/misleading advertising here? 

[Flying Pig]

23 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

So is the actual model R30225SS "44726" going to be double dommed

 

22 hours ago, 64F said:

I think we are fairly safe to assume that the model will be of the single domed

 

I thought this misapprehension was long dead and buried - can we please not allow it to rise again?  Early Stanier boilers were domeless like the GWR ones he was used to.  The dome-shaped casing actually covered the top feed.  Later boilers had a dome and a top feed, which was in the narrow casing just ahead of the dome (or down at the front of the boiler on very late engines).  There were never any double-domed engines, nor any with "combined dome and top feed".

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but this was a pernicious error the first time around, even making it into books published by people who should have known better.

[DCB]

Ah, so the ones with one dome are dome - less, and the ones with a separate top feed are domed. . So whether it has a dome or not  depends on the top feed.  Not the dome because even the dome - less ones have a dome. Sort of, not a proper dome like a GWR Dean Goods, but a token dome. so the dome- less boiler looks like it has a dome.  It all makes sense now.     

[MikeParkin65]

36 minutes ago, DCB said:

Ah, so the ones with one dome are dome - less, and the ones with a separate top feed are domed. . So whether it has a dome or not  depends on the top feed.  Not the dome because even the dome - less ones have a dome. Sort of, not a proper dome like a GWR Dean Goods, but a token dome. so the dome- less boiler looks like it has a dome.  It all makes sense now.     

You just need to separate the function of the dome which as @Flying Pig has pointed out is a working design feature of boilers from the form of the dome - the thing we see in photo's used to encase working ancillaries to the boiler be they 'steam domes', top feeds or other. 

 

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Ok so you are both calling out Hornby for false/misleading advertising here? 

The photo shows a Black 5 with the number 44726, and Hornby are offering a Black 5 with the number 44726. Whether the model is of the 44726 depends on which 44726 you mean, and when. Suggesting that Hornby are deliberately misleading people is a bit OTT, at worst they've fallen into the same Black Five Variations quagmire that everyone else has tried to model one has. Wait until you see the box artwork for the model, not a photo of the real (sic) thing then decide. 

 

2 hours ago, DCB said:

Ah, so the ones with one dome are dome - less, and the ones with a separate top feed are domed. . So whether it has a dome or not  depends on the top feed.  Not the dome because even the dome - less ones have a dome. Sort of, not a proper dome like a GWR Dean Goods, but a token dome. so the dome- less boiler looks like it has a dome.  It all makes sense now.     

 

Yes :-) In approximate order of construction (apologies if this has been done before):

 

Domeless - topfeed with additional small circular cover on the third boiler ring. Vertical throatplate (VT) boiler with short firebox. (First 225 locos only)

Domed (version 1) - dome on the third ring, separate topfeed on the second. Sloping throatplate (ST) boiler with longer firebox. 

Domed (version 2) - dome on the third ring, separate topfeed on the first ring. Sloping throatplate (ST) boiler with longer firebox. Two variations of wheelbase. 

 

The two types of domed ST boiler could be swapped during works visits. Fifty spare ST boilers were built, a loco entering shops needing boiler work would have it's boiler swapped with one from the pool so which type it was fitted with could and did vary between shoppings.  Thirteen VT domeless locos were later retro-fitted with ST boilers to create a similar pool of spare VT boilers and I believe some VT boilers were also later fitted with domes. 

 

Without either a clear dated photo or the Engine Record Card in front of you, it's all guesswork. 

 

Edited - to clarify 'domeless'. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Wheatley

[Carl LaFong]

If you think that the previous information about the 'hikers' is complicated you should get a copy of Jennison and Clarke 'Locomotives in Detail' especially the section that deals with the ones maintained at St Rollox.

St Rollox is suitably far away from Euston and continued to mix boilers with gay abandon long after the practice had ceased everywhere else.

Irwell's Book of the Black Fives (Five Volumes) is also a good source of information, and a book by the late David Cross (I can't remember which one) shows some examples of the locos with three different types of boilers in their lifetime !

 

[Flying Pig]

 

32 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Domeless - combined (small) dome and topfeed on the third boiler ring. Vertical throatplate (VT) boiler with short firebox. (First 225 locos only)

 

No, no, no. There was never a "combined dome and topfeed" despite this being stated for many years by people who should have known better.  The "dome" on the early boilers was a just light metal cover over  a topfeed, which was afaik identical to the topfeeds later covered by the familiar narrow casing.

 

A (steam) dome is an upward extension of the boiler shell itself, regardless of what the outer cladding looks like, to allow collection of steam well above the water surface. Domeless Stanier boilers lacked one altogether and collected steam using perforated pipes in the front corners of the firebox, exactly as taper-boilered GWR engines did.

 

 

[Wheatley]

44 minutes ago, Carl LaFong said:

St Rollox is suitably far away from Euston and continued to mix boilers with gay abandon long after the practice had ceased everywhere else.

 

And tenders, and size and position of cabside numbers, and no doubt a few other things. 45480 was a regular performer on 'my' route, between 1955 and 1965 it managed both ST boilers and at least 2 of the 3 variations in tenders. 

4 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

No, no, no. There was never a "combined dome and topfeed" despite this being stated for many years by people who should have known better.  The "dome" on the early boilers was a just light metal cover over  a topfeed, which was afaik identical to the topfeeds later covered by the familiar narrow casing.

Oops, sorry. As well as all the variations in the real one Hornby are also having to contend with all the variations in what modellers and enthusiasts call the various variations. 

[Buhar]

Trying to support @Flying Pig in their efforts to clarify boiler fittings.  There is the "dome the shape" and "the dome the device mounted on the upper surface of a locomotive boiler" and these do get confused when people talk about combined dome and top-feed which was a dome shaped top feed casing.  The dome on a locomotive boiler collected steam and regulated its distribution and in early Stanier engines this was done up top in the firebox with no dome involved.  Stirling and Smellie designed domeless boilers in the late 19th century without a top-feed too as @Wheatley will ken well.

 

Alan

[farren]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

No, no, no. There was never a "combined dome and topfeed" despite this being stated for many years by people who should have known better.  The "dome" on the early boilers was a just light metal cover over  a topfeed, which was afaik identical to the topfeeds later covered by the familiar narrow casing.

 

A (steam) dome is an upward extension of the boiler shell itself, regardless of what the outer cladding looks like, to allow collection of steam well above the water surface. Domeless Stanier boilers lacked one altogether and collected steam using perforated pipes in the front corners of the firebox, exactly as taper-boilered GWR engines did.

 

 

45151 wearing both domed and domless covers, she is obviously a 1st ring top feed boiler the pipe gives it away, that and the text. Maybe this has  given the impression of a double dome to some. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by farren

[Wheatley]

That's quite impressive even for St Rollox. Random topfeed, someone else's tender (or at least axlebox)  and the numbers not quite centred 😆.  

[Flying Pig]

9 minutes ago, farren said:

45151 wearing both domed and domless covers, she is obviously a 1st ring top feed boiler the pipe gives it away, that and the text. Maybe this has  given the impression of a double dome to some. 

 

I think I've also seen a picture of domeless engine (not sure whether it was a Black Five or a Jubilee) with the later narrow style of topfeed casing.  It might even be that such oddities were numerous enough to warrant models.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Flying Pig

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think I've also seen a picture of domeless engine (not sure whether it was a Black Five or a Jubilee) with the later narrow style of topfeed casing.  It might even be that such oddities were numerous enough to warrant models.

5005 in LMS livery.

[wappinghigh]

I'm now totally confused.

 

Looking forward to a Hornby Model that is "as preserved" that is exactly the same as an existing mainline certified Black5

 

That way it is what it is (at this point in time)

 

😀