Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[wappinghigh]

So I would be happy with 5025 and/or 45212 as they exist right now 

Why Hornby just wouldn't start with "as preserved" loco's in a new tooled release like this puzzles me to be honest..

[The Stationmaster]

29 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

So I would be happy with 5025 and/or 45212 as they exist right now 

Why Hornby just wouldn't start with "as preserved" loco's in a new tooled release like this puzzles me to be honest..

It depends very much on what they see as the best market opportunities.  Whichever engine they produce in whatever condition they have to be marketable and to sell (ideally quickly) in sufficient numbers to recoup investment and make a contribution to the company's bottom line.  An as 'currently preserved' condition is obviously the easiest for them to research so would save a bit on development time & cost.  But if it is stuck in warehouse where almost nobody gets to see it the commercial attractiveness might be limited.i

 

In some cases preserved engines may well sell because people have seen them or ridden behind them and want a suitable 'souvenir'.  in other cases it entirely depends on what period modellers are going for in their largest numbers and thereby creating the biggest potential market.  It also depends on the extent to which a model has the right combination of fittings etc to allow simple renumbering to another in that condition.  Generally the BR steam period, in various styles of livery, has in teh apst been shown to be a large market and for all we know, or don't know, that might still be the case so a model aimed accurately at that period might outsell a preserved condition engine.

 

And never forget that we might all want something different from someone else.

[wappinghigh]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It depends very much on what they see as the best market opportunities.  Whichever engine they produce in whatever condition they have to be marketable and to sell (ideally quickly) in sufficient numbers to recoup investment and make a contribution to the company's bottom line.  An as 'currently preserved' condition is obviously the easiest for them to research so would save a bit on development time & cost.  But if it is stuck in warehouse where almost nobody gets to see it the commercial attractiveness might be limited.i

 

In some cases preserved engines may well sell because people have seen them or ridden behind them and want a suitable 'souvenir'.  in other cases it entirely depends on what period modellers are going for in their largest numbers and thereby creating the biggest potential market.  It also depends on the extent to which a model has the right combination of fittings etc to allow simple renumbering to another in that condition.  Generally the BR steam period, in various styles of livery, has in teh apst been shown to be a large market and for all we know, or don't know, that might still be the case so a model aimed accurately at that period might outsell a preserved condition engine.

 

And never forget that we might all want something different from someone else.

It's not as as simple as they can't release them "as preserved" models due to naming or numbering rights? (Held by the owners of the current locomotives)? 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, wappinghigh said:

So I would be happy with 5025 and/or 45212 as they exist right now 

Why Hornby just wouldn't start with "as preserved" loco's in a new tooled release like this puzzles me to be honest..

Makes more commercial sense to me to produce models of loco's as they were in LMS or BR service regardless of whether the identity chosen is one that has subsequently been preserved. My reasoning is that those of us who are modelling earlier periods are less likely to buy an 'as currently preserved' version than those running contemporary layouts wanting a preserved loco will be willing to accept a '1960's for example version which they may choose to update (electrification flashes, air brake pipes etc). 

 

Easier to update than backdate I think.

 

Hornby would also have to look at which period in preservation  they modelled. 45212 has been in preservation since 1968 and has changed significantly in detail over the last 50 (!) years particularly in its most recent 'RileyRail' form.

[wappinghigh]

^Sure.

 

Well we have the owners attempting to set the period and details of things like livery, running number etc of locomotives in preservation as much as the modeller manufacturers themselves! (so I get what you are saying)

 

The key is to pick a locomotive where everyone seems to agree on what really is the "iconic look" of a particular classic steam locomotive of that particular class.

 

Case in point 

 

The new look 5025 as well as Ian Riley "versions" of  Black5's like 45212 where I think all owners involved have "got the look" particularly right (accurate) for any given period vs situations where everyone continually seems to have "botched it up" in disagreement over the years.

 

(Like Scotsman!)

 

Heck even those involved with Caledonian railways or Southern locomotive "preservation" through the decades since the 60's, when we lost so many fantastic iconic pieces of engineering to the scrapyard...

 

(just my opinion)

 

😀

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

So I think if Hornby can model accurate versions of 5025 or 45212 as they look now - I'd be pretty happy as I think they are superb examples of Iconic Black 5's 

 

😀

Edited April 19, 2023 by wappinghigh

[MikeParkin65]

36 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

So I think if Hornby can model accurate versions of 5025 or 45212 as they look now - I'd be pretty happy as I think they are superb examples of Iconic Black 5's 

 

😀

Interesting idea to consider which preserved examples are most representative of their service days in the state they are currently preserved in.  I’d agree 5025 for LMS state but go for 45305 or 45110 for a BR example (appreciate neither are currently serviceable). 
 

 

[wappinghigh]

On 17/04/2023 at 22:39, Flying Pig said:

 

 

No, no, no. There was never a "combined dome and topfeed" despite this being stated for many years by people who should have known better.  The "dome" on the early boilers was a just light metal cover over  a topfeed, which was afaik identical to the topfeeds later covered by the familiar narrow casing.

 

A (steam) dome is an upward extension of the boiler shell itself, regardless of what the outer cladding looks like, to allow collection of steam well above the water surface. Domeless Stanier boilers lacked one altogether and collected steam using perforated pipes in the front corners of the firebox, exactly as taper-boilered GWR engines did.

 

 

Lol ok now I get it!!!

 

@Flying Pig

 

So in the archives are pictures of 45025 with a top feed and a steam dome... that is two "humps" on top of the boiler. These pictures are supposedly from around the mid 60's ie at end of steam. Now the new LMS livered 5025 that has just been recertified, has the larger domed area removed from the boiler and is stated to be in a more "original state" ie as it was produced straight out of the Vulcan foundry. Does what you say, mean the actual boiler itself has been boiler "remade" throughout the years.. That they foundered the upward extension of the boiler at some stage towards the end of BR days into that large steam dome, then somewhere along since 1960's one of the preserved owners has removed it? How do they actually do that? (given it's an actual "bubble" extension as it were of the whole boiler.) Wouldn't all this weaken the entire boiler re pressure? Or has the whole boiler been replaced over the years on at least two occasions?  

Edited April 19, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Flying Pig]

29 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

given it's an actual "bubble" extension as it were of the whole boiler.

 

Here are some pictures of Black Five domes without the cladding to give an idea of ther construction:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/44901-lms-4901-br-44901/

 

[wappinghigh]

^ Right. So the Steam dome is riveted on..(and hole made in the top of the boiler to form the bubble)  ...and would have been done like that if any locos were modified during BR days..

 

So when the steam dome  is removed (like they have with 5025) from the top of the boiler...that top there is all smooth...

 

So how have they actually done that (to withstand the huge pressure)

 

The whole boiler would have been replaced... (Or that circular ring at least for that section)...surely?

Edited April 19, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Flying Pig]

While some domeless Stanier boilers were rebuilt with domes, I haven't heard of the reverse ever being done. In this case, I don't think it matters, because photos of 45025 immediately before withdrawal show it carrying a domeless boiler (second engine here):

 

nyks - 45390 & 45025 on lcgb farewell to steam tour clapham 04-8-1968 by John Law, on Flickr

[wappinghigh]

^ Ok cool I must have been looking at the wrong photo.. the old Hornby Railroad model then is wrong but that's no surprise.

 

Thanks for all the help. Very appreciative 

 

Cheers

[Steamport Southport]

I'm waiting for the wallpaper livery myself!

 

Used to be shown a lot when I was a kid. Mostly in cinemas.

 

Yes. It's real. They did cover a Black Five in wallpaper!

 

Unfortunately the only copy I can find is on Twitter. Click the video to watch and you might need to turn on the volume.

 

 

https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/983026020893843456

 

 

 

Jason

[PeterStiles]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

They did cover a Black Five in wallpaper!

 

if its covered in Wallpaper doesn't that make it Architecture and so can referenced be in his TV next series?

[Wheatley]

Solvite also glued a bloke to a plank and flew him under a helicopter. I know the Black 5 one was real, not sure about the other. 

[Dunsignalling]

22 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Lol ok now I get it!!!

 

@Flying Pig

 

So in the archives are pictures of 45025 with a top feed and a steam dome... that is two "humps" on top of the boiler. These pictures are supposedly from around the mid 60's ie at end of steam. Now the new LMS livered 5025 that has just been recertified, has the larger domed area removed from the boiler and is stated to be in a more "original state" ie as it was produced straight out of the Vulcan foundry. Does what you say, mean the actual boiler itself has been boiler "remade" throughout the years.. That they foundered the upward extension of the boiler at some stage towards the end of BR days into that large steam dome, then somewhere along since 1960's one of the preserved owners has removed it? How do they actually do that? (given it's an actual "bubble" extension as it were of the whole boiler.) Wouldn't all this weaken the entire boiler re pressure? Or has the whole boiler been replaced over the years on at least two occasions?  

 

22 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Lol ok now I get it!!!

 

@Flying Pig

 

So in the archives are pictures of 45025 with a top feed and a steam dome... that is two "humps" on top of the boiler. These pictures are supposedly from around the mid 60's ie at end of steam. Now the new LMS livered 5025 that has just been recertified, has the larger domed area removed from the boiler and is stated to be in a more "original state" ie as it was produced straight out of the Vulcan foundry. Does what you say, mean the actual boiler itself has been boiler "remade" throughout the years.. That they foundered the upward extension of the boiler at some stage towards the end of BR days into that large steam dome, then somewhere along since 1960's one of the preserved owners has removed it? How do they actually do that? (given it's an actual "bubble" extension as it were of the whole boiler.) Wouldn't all this weaken the entire boiler re pressure? Or has the whole boiler been replaced over the years on at least two occasions?  

Boilers took longer to recondition than the rest of a steam loco.  It was normal for there to be more boilers than engines, to avoid otherwise fully overhauled locos clogging up the works waiting for their own boilers to be finished. Where it gets interesting is when (as with Black Fives) there are boilers that look different but are interchangeable. 

 

It was thus usual for overhauled locos to leave the works with a different boiler than it carried on arrival. At its next visit it might well reassume its earlier appearance..... or not!

 

It's therefore (at least in principle) perfectly possible for a model to correctly represent a loco as it was in (say) 1956 and 1962, but be "wrong" for 1959!

 

John

Edited April 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[farren]

 

 

the thing with locomotives is what is the identity of a locomotive? The boiler? Obviously not.
Then is it the main frames well they wore out and got replaced. 

maybe it’s just a builders plate and a number in the end. Only that doesn’t work either. Some black5’s ran with two builders plates one on the smoke and another on the frame extension at certain times.

 

Meaning there’s locomotives running around with out a builders plates. In the end the only way to know what any locomotive looked like at anyone point is to have a photograph of it on a set date. Preferably from multiple angles to catch all the details 

Edited April 20, 2023 by farren

[Wheatley]

34 minutes ago, farren said:

the thing with locomotives is what is the identity of a locomotive? 

It's a tool to do a job. Modellers and railway enthusiasts put far more significance on this than the railway companies ever did. 

 

We are used to the 'true' identity mattering on road vehicles, but that's for tax purposes and to deter you from welding two duff ones together. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, farren said:

 

 

the thing with locomotives is what is the identity of a locomotive? The boiler? Obviously not.
Then is it the main frames well they wore out and got replaced. 

maybe it’s just a builders plate and a number in the end. Only that doesn’t work either. Some black5’s ran with two builders plates one on the smoke and another on the frame extension at certain times.

 

Meaning there’s locomotives running around with out a builders plates. In the end the only way to know what any locomotive looked like at anyone point is to have a photograph of it on a set date. Preferably from multiple angles to catch all the details 

It's all pretty random, and the older the loco, all the more so.

 

I remember a magazine publishing an account of a Black Five being stripped ahead of restoration a good many years ago where the numbers marked on the various components were noted.

 

IIRC, more than twenty different origins were identified and precious few of them tallied with that painted on the cabside.

 

The ones I particularly enjoyed were the  mainframes, RH and LH, stamped with the numbers of two other locos. One bogie wheelset carried the identity of an 8F and the other, an Ivatt 2MT tank!

 

John

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[wappinghigh]

Lol I know about fox transfers anybody supply laser printed 00 scale black 5 steam domes?! And two sets of different tenders? 

[farren]

8 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Lol I know about fox transfers anybody supply laser printed 00 scale black 5 steam domes?! And two sets of different tenders? 

247 developments do Stanier domes, though their site seems to be not loading the header titles at the moment!

 

two sets of tender? I take it you mean transfer. HMRS Transfers or fox or

 

Modelmasters but I read they’re not being very reliable at the moment for some people and I’m been waiting for tank transfers for some time. 

[Steamport Southport]

17 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's all pretty random, and the older the loco, all the more so.

 

I remember a magazine publishing an account of a Black Five being stripped ahead of restoration a good many years ago where the numbers marked on the various components were noted.

 

IIRC, more than twenty different origins were identified and precious few of them tallied with that painted on the cabside.

 

The ones I particularly enjoyed were the  mainframes, RH and LH, stamped with the numbers of two other locos. One bogie wheelset carried the identity of an 8F and the other, an Ivatt 2MT tank!

 

John

 

 

 

Ah. Someone has been reading Steam Beano again.....

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, farren said:

247 developments do Stanier domes, though their site seems to be not loading the header titles at the moment!

 

two sets of tender? I take it you mean transfer. HMRS Transfers or fox or

 

Modelmasters but I read they’re not being very reliable at the moment for some people and I’m been waiting for tank transfers for some time. 

 

Remove the "S" on the HTTPS code and it works. It's a HTTP. Seems to be a fault when coming from some search engines.

 

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/

 

Parts for Black Fives. Comet all day long I'm afraid.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/

 

But why would you need them for the new Hornby version seeing as according to the TV programme they can make every version built including 44767?

 

Why not wait until they are made before wanting to replace parts. I don't think they've even got to the Engineering Prototype stage yet!

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Remove the "S" on the HTTPS code and it works. It's a HTTP. Seems to be a fault when coming from some search engines.

 

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/

 

Parts for Black Fives. Comet all day long I'm afraid.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/

 

But why would you need them for the new Hornby version seeing as according to the TV programme they can make every version built including 44767?

 

Why not wait until they are made before wanting to replace parts. I don't think they've even got to the Engineering Prototype stage yet!

 

 

Jason

Even if Hornby can make every possible Black Five, and they do a dozen a year (about half that seems more likely), it'll be seventy years before they have covered each one, and that disregards modifications and livery changes acquired throughout their careers!

 

If one wants a model of a particular loco at a specific period of its service, within a natural lifespan, and without relying on a sheer coincidence that Hornby might produce exactly the combination desired, it will be necessary to buy whichever of the early releases gets closest and detail/renumber it to suit. 

 

I agree, though that it seems premature to be acquiring parts "blind" before it becomes clear what ones starting point will be....

 

John

Edited April 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[MikeParkin65]

9 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

And two sets of different tenders? 

Comet do kits for most variety of Stanier tender - Wizard Models website lists them.