Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[sjp23480]

Very close examination of these pictures shows no sign of the "ledge" between the tender body and chassis that has caused much discussion down the years.

 

Are Hornby investing in a new Stanier tender to complement their "definitive" Black Five?  Or is it just the CAD render?  🤔

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by sjp23480

[markw]

24 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Very close examination of these pictures shows no sign of the "ledge" between the tender body and chassis that has caused much discussion down the years.

 

Are Hornby investing in a new Stanier tender to complement their "definitive" Black Five?  Or is it just the CAD render?  🤔

 

A retooled stainer tender underframe without the ledge has been used with recent Princess and Duchess models, I would expect the Black Five and Turbomotive will use the same tooling.

[Wheatley]

No ledge, better bogie wheels, hollow axle ends (!), and injector  detail under the cab. I can't tell from the  side view   whether they've  repositioned the front buffers, or whether the tender spring mouldings  are less '2D'. It will be interesting to see whether the later built ones get the revised leading side window too.   

[Hilux5972]

12 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Are Hornby investing in a new Stanier tender to complement their "definitive" Black Five?

Of course they will. They have said many times in the past, even if a loco uses the same tender as multiple other locos, it will have a new tooling for each loco. Otherwise the tender tooling would wear out far too quickly. 

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Of course they will. They have said many times in the past, even if a loco uses the same tender as multiple other locos, it will have a new tooling for each loco. Otherwise the tender tooling would wear out far too quickly. 

In these days of CAD that would seem excessive.

 

If theres no difference and nothing wrong with the old one, use it to the max, and when you see it starting to wear, send the CAD to have a new tool made and it would be identical to the previous.

 

Less storage, and tools will deteriorate with age sitting on the shelf.

looking back at the old days of Hornby i’m not sure they had separate tender tools for each loco… the 9f and Brit tenders were identical. 
 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by adb968008

[Legend]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

In these days of CAD that would seem excessive.

 

If theres no difference and nothing wrong with the old one, use it to the max, and when you see it starting to wear, send the CAD to have a new tool made and it would be identical to the previous.

 

Less storage, and tools will deteriorate with age sitting on the shelf.

 

 

 

Assumes they are made in same factory , of course .  Probably each model has a full suite of tooling so you don't end up with a situation of loco made at x and tender at y.

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

In these days of CAD that would seem excessive.

 

If theres no difference and nothing wrong with the old one, use it to the max, and when you see it starting to wear, send the CAD to have a new tool made and it would be identical to the previous.

 

Less storage, and tools will deteriorate with age sitting on the shelf.

 

 

That's what I'd expect, but what seems to happen is that each loco gets its own tender moulding (judging by comments here and elsewhere in the past) presumably because Hornby order from multiple factories and don't want the potential logistical complexity of two factories needing the same tender tooling at the same time to manufacture two different loco + tender models.

[rogerzilla]

Since one-off prototypes are all the rage, I wonder if they'll do the one with outside Stephenson gear?

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

That's what I'd expect, but what seems to happen is that each loco gets its own tender moulding (judging by comments here and elsewhere in the past) presumably because Hornby order from multiple factories and don't want the potential logistical complexity of two factories needing the same tender tooling at the same time to manufacture two different loco + tender models.

Given how slow stuff is coming from China, i’d be amazed if 1 factory had a full house of employees to even work… let alone two factories going hammer and tongs !

 

As an aside I read in the annual report Hornby is duplicating some toolings outside of China, to give it some flexibility.

Edited January 6, 2023 by adb968008

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Given how slow stuff is coming from China, i’d be amazed if 1 factory had a full house of employees to even work… let alone two factories going hammer and tongs !

They wouldn't need to be going hammer and tongs, just making different locos. Pick any two of the various BR standards that used the same tender types for example. OK that's easier with Bachmann's product range  than Hornby's, but anyways. 'Legend' makes the same point more succinctly.

Edited January 6, 2023 by spamcan61

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

They wouldn't need to be going hammer and tongs, just making different locos. Pick any two of the various BR standards that used the same tender types for example. OK that's easier with Bachmann's product range  than Hornby's, but anyways. 'Legend' makes the same point more succinctly.

No I got the point.

However (i cant find the reference right now to quote it), but recall reading Hornby has its own warehouse for tooling, having learned this lesson.

There was even some comment about some toolings not even being stored in China, iirc.

 

Tooling manufacturers, storage and those factories using them toolings aren't always related.

 

i’m sure today our models are made from parts from different factories, or using some oem (eg motors) and generic parts (eg rolling stock wheels) . its the assembly line that puts it all together. Of course its the finish / paint & decoration that ensures it sits nice in the box.

 

My point still stands, its how you manage the tooling that would permit it my suggestion to be possible.

 

I very much doubt Hornby made a whole new tooling for the 2HIL for example. 34050 shows theres no guarentee that assembly line will get loco and tender correct, (also see the latest Dec 2022 Fag packet HST and coaches). 34001 showed multiple factories can use a tooling.

 

I should add, Chinese manufacturing is also quite savvy, spotting oppourtunity to upsell by pointing out risks is by no means a western exclusive trait.

 

I would challenge the status quo though for savings, I think the days of 100k models off brand new toolings are a long way behind us in 2022 and its pricing… imo I think within 20 years the whole model of  heavy injection moulding tooling from China will be obsolete.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by adb968008

[Legend]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

No I got the point.

However (i cant find the reference right now to quote it), but recall reading Hornby has its own warehouse for tooling, having learned this lesson.

There was even some comment about some toolings not even being stored in China, iirc.

 

Tooling manufacturers, storage and those factories using them toolings aren't always related.

 

i’m sure today our models are made from parts from different factories, or using some oem (eg motors) and generic parts (eg rolling stock wheels) . its the assembly line that puts it all together. Of course its the finish / paint & decoration that ensures it sits nice in the box.

 

My point still stands, its how you manage the tooling that would permit it my suggestion to be possible.

 

I very much doubt Hornby made a whole new tooling for the 2HIL for example. 34050 shows theres no guarentee that assembly line will get loco and tender correct, (also see the latest Dec 2022 Fag packet HST and coaches). 34001 showed multiple factories can use a tooling.

 

I should add, Chinese manufacturing is also quite savvy, spotting oppourtunity to upsell by pointing out risks is by no means a western exclusive trait.

 

I would challenge the status quo though for savings, I think the days of 100k models off brand new toolings are a long way behind us in 2022 and its pricing… imo I think within 20 years the whole model of  heavy injection moulding tooling from China will be obsolete.

 

 

 

 There are a lot of logistics involved in this though .  Imagine with the Covid issues in China just now Hornby orders 5000 locos from x and 5000 tenders from y .  X is delayed because of covid/ power etc etc , so you end up with 5000 tenders going no where that you presumably paid for . then you have to rearrange with x  to produce locos and then either x or perhaps even z to decorate box etc . Its just too complicated , too many spinning plates and variables . 

 

I think its as simple as Hornby order a complete loco from its contractor as China . They probably accept the inefficiencies in use of tooling as a price for simplicity of ordering , cash flow and contractural obligations.

 

I thought I had seen somewhere that each model had its own tooling suite . I also remember seeing ,probably as an explantion of why things were late, that it wasn't just as simple as transferring one set of tooling from one sub contractor to another because each had different injection moulding tools and the tooling didn't fit, it may be specific to that manufacturer.

 

So again I think there's one set of tooling for each loco even if they have common tenders . 

 

HST Power Cars and MK3 Coaches are a completely different kettle of fish (Maybe even Class 91s and Mk4s). I can well see there is one factory producing the locos/power cars and another doing the coaches . That accounts for the differences with the "fag packet" decorating . 

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, Legend said:

 There are a lot of logistics involved in this though .  Imagine with the Covid issues in China just now Hornby orders 5000 locos from x and 5000 tenders from y .  X is delayed because of covid/ power etc etc , so you end up with 5000 tenders going no where that you presumably paid for . then you have to rearrange with x  to produce locos and then either x or perhaps even z to decorate box etc . Its just too complicated , too many spinning plates and variables . 

 

I think its as simple as Hornby order a complete loco from its contractor as China . They probably accept the inefficiencies in use of tooling as a price for simplicity of ordering , cash flow and contractural obligations.

 

I thought I had seen somewhere that each model had its own tooling suite . I also remember seeing ,probably as an explantion of why things were late, that it wasn't just as simple as transferring one set of tooling from one sub contractor to another because each had different injection moulding tools and the tooling didn't fit, it may be specific to that manufacturer.

 

So again I think there's one set of tooling for each loco even if they have common tenders . 

 

HST Power Cars and MK3 Coaches are a completely different kettle of fish (Maybe even Class 91s and Mk4s). I can well see there is one factory producing the locos/power cars and another doing the coaches . That accounts for the differences with the "fag packet" decorating . 

Yes but were heading into space now.

 

The point was… 1 tender could be used by several locos.

 

1 bogie could be used by several coaches.

1 coupling certainly is used by dozens of models.

1 rolling stock wheel vendor makes wheels for several different factories, ergo dozens of comissioners here in Europe and the US (and can be fully automated and run 24/7 manned by just 1 person)… the video / factory is out there, and omg that must be a depressing job for that guy.

 

Theres nothing stopping it happening, and if the tool wears out… send the cad to the tooling company to make another.

Thats what volume businesses do, its more efficient. I’m sure lego has several identical brick piece tools, but they probably dont make multiple identical tools one for each piece in each different boxed set they make.

if they chose a separate identical tool for each loco they make, its there choice but its excess cost imo. They arent going to make 100k black 5’s starting at £250 from 2023 imo.
 

So if theres £30-50k to save, sharing it with an 8F, Patriot, Scot, Jubilee etc seems logical… as over 5 locos thats £150-200k saved, for want of a bit of planning time in China. Unless of course tooling costs is irrelevant to your business, or cash flow is free.

 

Everything else was just going off the point.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Since one-off prototypes are all the rage, I wonder if they'll do the one with outside Stephenson gear?

 

Probably. Since I've got virtually all the parts for it in the pile waiting for a suitable body donor, including the Bill Bedford etch for the valve gear.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Since one-off prototypes are all the rage, I wonder if they'll do the one with outside Stephenson gear?

It would be impressive to see but I wonder if 2 (3?) overlapping cranks on the same wheel would be within the limits of what can be achieved with commercially produced  stamped valve gear, both in terms of clearances required for reliable operation and the skill (ok, cost) required to assemble them.  The bog standard Hornby Black 5 is already more than capable of tying it's own valve gear in knots, and it's one of those things  which needs doing either properly or not at all; a static set of Stephenson links hanging off the crank axle is not going to cut it.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

I very much doubt that Hornby would get a loco made in one factory and its tender in another.

 

They get enough stick about colour without risking a mismatch in the same box!

 

OK it shouldn’t be an issue with black, but they could easily end up with one thing being glossier than the other. 

 

John

Edited January 6, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Corbs]

On 03/01/2023 at 11:19, Delta_Who said:

^R30227 BR, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5' Caprotti, 4-6-0, 44755 - Era 4 (Web Exclusive)

 

I really am quite excited for this ugly brute. Am hoping that the new chassis has a bit more weight in it, too, as the older one is a fantastic model IMO but sadly struggles with our helix when other locos romp up with the same load.

Never thought I'd see Caprotti locos in RTR but now we have this and the 'Duke' 😄

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/01/2023 at 13:21, Dunsignalling said:

I very much doubt that Hornby would get a loco made in one factory and its tender in another.

 

They get enough stick about colour without risking a mismatch in the same box!

 

OK it shouldn’t be an issue with black, but they could easily end up with one thing being glossier than the other. 

 

John

Knowing what some people have seen in factories in China I wouldn't be surprised if the tender had been moulded in one factory and the engine body had been moulded in another because the factories do help each other out when they are very busy.  But I doubt that painting and assembly would take lace in more than one factory.

 

although noen in Year 1 interest me = even for home remnbering etc I am looking forward to see what Hornby can make of the Black Fice with the new tooling and wil definitely be ordering oe from my local retailer when one I want comes along (and hoping of course that the retailer w atill actually receive from Hornby what he has ordered on my behalf without me having to wait twp years longer for it than customers at another shop or Hornby itself as has happened to me in the past with Hornby).

[Hilux5972]

On 18/02/2023 at 21:00, Corbs said:

Never thought I'd see Caprotti locos in RTR but now we have this and the 'Duke' 😄

And the new P2 to come as well

[pH]

On 18/02/2023 at 00:00, Corbs said:

Never thought I'd see Caprotti locos in RTR but now we have this and the 'Duke' 😄

 

21 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

And the new P2 to come as well

Reidinger Crab next?

[E100]

Asked at MRS and they seem to expect 2023 Q4/ 2024 Q1 despite what the website says. When I said winter 2024/25 they said that didn't sound right.

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

Asked at MRS and they seem to expect 2023 Q4/ 2024 Q1 despite what the website says. When I said winter 2024/25 they said that didn't sound right.

It is going to be featured in the next episode of Hornby: a model world on Monday 6th March. 

 

So I would think the model will have had to have been reasonably well advanced at time of filming last year to make it into the programme.

 

Let's hope it's not too far off.

[resin001]

As Hornby are apparently featuring the new Black 5 tomorrow on TV , I thought it would be a good time to showcase my effort ! 

This is a Wizard ( Comet ) Models of the Caprotti version which I purchased in December 2020 prior to Hornby making their new release announcement - this has taken me 2 years to get to this stage - I had a few issues with the kit but it is now almost complete - weathering and a tweak on the bogie position. I have also pre ordered the Caprotti version from Hornby 

 

[Chameleon]

Interesting to see the engineering prototype on the programme tonight. This would have been filmed some time ago and they did mention a year of development. Funny how nothing has appeared yet.  If it is at that stage, I’m surprised it’ll be another two years or so til it appears. Good to see the effort they are putting into building the different variations of the class. Will they cover them all?

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Chameleon said:

Interesting to see the engineering prototype on the programme tonight. This would have been filmed some time ago and they did mention a year of development. Funny how nothing has appeared yet.  If it is at that stage, I’m surprised it’ll be another two years or so til it appears. Good to see the effort they are putting into building the different variations of the class. Will they cover them all?

They've gota job on if they are going to cover all the variations - domed and domeless boilers, several different types of top feed covers and feed pipe arrangement, differing positions of a smokebox oil pipe, at least two different patterns of single chimney, valvegear variants with or without double chimney, at least two different fireboxes with a different number of washout plugs.  Then chuck in the fact that at works visits engines could emerge with a different type of boiler from the one they carried when they went into works.

 

Thus any photo, or indeed preserved loco, simply represents a particular engine at a certain date in its life and it could easily have been different at a different date during its working life.  To capture all of that accurately needs not only the right sort of provision for the variations during design but a really good researcher who understands what he/she is looking at and knows what to look for.  Hornby has, I think, got the design skills needed but does it have a researcher with that depth of knowledge and the references needed for the research that is essential to capture and date all the variations?  And as importantly is Hornby prepared to invest the amounts needed to capture all the variations?

 

I'm sure that they'll manage a pretty good/very good Black Five but I wonder if they'll bother with all the variations, especially in valvegear - for cost reasons alone.

 

PS I see there are some screen grabs of the Black Five in the TT120 thread and they appear to have got most of the visible detail alteration of boiler fitting plus what looks like three different boiler/firebox versions including the top feed on the front ring of the boiler (the least common one I think).  So they are in fact well on the way - their main task will be to get the details to match running numbers but they clearly have at least one illustrated reference source.

Edited March 7, 2023 by The Stationmaster