Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[The Stationmaster]

49 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think it’s as simple as someone’s got Winter 23/24 mixed up with 24/25 , as it’s appearing on a few models .Otherwise  Hornby won’t have much new to sell in 23 , which will not be good for their financials . 

For Hornby's sake I hope it's as simple as that.  But on the other hand look at what they've been spending of late plus their changed cash position plus their borrowing capability and they obviously can't develop and produce everything at the same time.  

It's probably more likely than anything else that the can't offer 'solid' dates for a variety of reasons so I wonder if they're being pessimistic with forecast dates and are under promising while hoping to over deliver?

[spamcan61]

41 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

For Hornby's sake I hope it's as simple as that.  But on the other hand look at what they've been spending of late plus their changed cash position plus their borrowing capability and they obviously can't develop and produce everything at the same time.  

It's probably more likely than anything else that the can't offer 'solid' dates for a variety of reasons so I wonder if they're being pessimistic with forecast dates and are under promising while hoping to over deliver?

I've emailed them directly to clarify if this is a mistake or not, we'll see. Creating a social media hoo-haa around TT:120 and then pushing out the delivery dates a year or more is clearly not good for business.

[Bulleidboy100]

Looking on the positive side - if there is one - ordering today might be a lot cheaper than waiting for 2024/25 prices?

[Wheatley]

This is the same company which accredited Sir William Stanier with designing the Merchant Navies a couple of years ago. Proof reading isn't really their thing. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Meanwhile the clock ticks ever on….mine in addition to Hornby’s. 🙄

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I've emailed them directly to clarify if this is a mistake or not, we'll see. Creating a social media hoo-haa around TT:120 and then pushing out the delivery dates a year or more is clearly not good for business.

If Hornby were to leave a vacuum in OO, it would only accelerate the process of others taking it off them, and reduce their relevance to those whose continuing expenditure makes it the biggest established segment of the UK model railway market.

 

Would they effectively surrender a hefty chunk of known business in favour of what they might make from TT:120?

 

Hornby are not immune from making daft moves, but that daft? I think not.

 

John

 

 

 

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If Hornby were to leave a vacuum in OO, it would only accelerate the process of others taking it off them, and reduce their relevance to those whose continuing expenditure makes it the biggest established segment of the UK model railway market.

 

Would they effectively surrender a hefty chunk of known business in favour of what they might make from TT:120?

 

Hornby are not immune from making daft moves, but that daft? I think not.

 

John

 

 

 

SK has replied to somebody on Facebook  ( their specific enquiry was about class 50 and 66) saying it's not a typo. Crikey.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

SK has replied to somebody on Facebook  ( their specific enquiry was about class 50 and 66) saying it's not a typo. Crikey.

 

Wow. This is all looking a little odd unless things that are nearly ready get announced in January.

 

Never mind "nothing there for me", how about "nothing there for anybody"?

 

Of course, it could just be that SK's calendar is fast. 😆

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

SK has replied to somebody on Facebook  ( their specific enquiry was about class 50 and 66) saying it's not a typo. Crikey.

 

I can find the question on their page (that post is given as 5h old), but I can't see any reply from SK

 

I would be slightly surprised if the message had recieved an official confirmation within the hour (as your message's timing implies), but if such a confirmation was in fact given ,it now seems to have been deleted....

 

No comments on this in the TT120 thread,. where it might have been expected...

[spamcan61]

11 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

I can find the question on their page (that post is given as 5h old), but I can't see any reply from SK

 

I would be slightly surprised if the message had recieved an official confirmation within the hour (as your message's timing implies), but if such a confirmation was in fact given ,it now seems to have been deleted....

 

No comments on this in the TT120 thread,. where it might have been expected...

I have no idea when the OP over on Facebook emailed SK, or when he replied, but I doubt it's fake news.

 

Screen grab of email here, no idea if this viewable without logging into FB.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/britishtt/permalink/2087171508134723/

Edited December 23, 2022 by spamcan61

[Ravenser]

8 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I have no idea when the OP over on Facebook emailed SK, or when he replied, but I doubt it's fake news.

 

Screen grab of email here, no idea if this viewable without logging into FB.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/britishtt/permalink/2087171508134723/

 

 

That is slightly more informative , and says "I' am sure these dates can be improved" A second email speaks of being "overly cautious" rather than "overly optimistic" and says that 2 or 3 [TT120 ] locomotives are now ahead of the 50 and 66 in the queue. It is stated that the TT:120 Class 50 and 66 are effectively designed and they will be going out for tooling quotes straight after the Christmas break

 

It starts to look as if everything under development has been marked as "Winter 2024/5 " until they have established who is tooling what and what the priority list is.

 

Therefore it's likely the Black 5 will be earlier than currently shown. I can well imagine this is another class where numerous varients are involved - an issue mentioned with the 66

[Hilux5972]

For anyone that can’t see the Facebook post, here’s the posted email from Neil Turnbull. There is a reason. 

[toby_tl10]

Many people are still awaiting the Standard 2MTs... According to Hornby, 2 versions expected Spring 2023, and 3 versions expected Summer 2023. We'll see about that.

 

Black Fives gotta wait, I s'ppose.

[SteamingWales]

I suppose the overarching question here is when to announce a new model?

 

Realistically the Black 5 could have been announced as part of the upcoming 2023 range with the 3D print and CAD renders rather than a flag plant and little development progress shown in 2022

[Legend]

23 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

SK has replied to somebody on Facebook  ( their specific enquiry was about class 50 and 66) saying it's not a typo. Crikey.

That being the case I think he and Hornby lacks credibility. Remember the “we are already considering phase 9 “ comments . At this rate that would be 2030 +  And it will affect sales . I’m holding off for 37/47 which are phases 3 or 4  which has now got to be 2025+

[Gridiron]

I vaguely remember completing a Triang/Hornby wish list for a Stanier Black Five in the mid 1960's in Hobbies Ltd Liverpool before turning my attentions to other things. I notice from the Hornby Guide is was 1978 before it was introduced making it at least 10 to 12 years to materialise and in my case 50 years before I owned even an old version. Given the major delays in China caused by the Covid lockdowns I am not in the least bit surprised this project has been delayed. 

 

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, Gridiron said:

I vaguely remember completing a Triang/Hornby wish list for a Stanier Black Five in the mid 1960's in Hobbies Ltd Liverpool before turning my attentions to other things. I notice from the Hornby Guide is was 1978 before it was introduced making it at least 10 to 12 years to materialise and in my case 50 years before I owned even an old version. Given the major delays in China caused by the Covid lockdowns I am not in the least bit surprised this project has been delayed. 

 

 

The Hornby Black Five came out about 1973 so you are well out on dates.

 

One of the first models with a Ringfield motor and part of the Silver Seal range of "super detailed" models when they disposed of all the old junk.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=211

 

 

Jason

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The Hornby Black Five came out about 1973 so you are well out on dates.

 

One of the first models with a Ringfield motor and part of the Silver Seal range of "super detailed" models when they disposed of all the old junk.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=211

 

 

Jason

I think 1978 was when the original model was ‘upgraded’ with the then new Duchess valve gear. 

[Flying Pig]

17 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I think 1978 was when the original model was ‘upgraded’ with the then new Duchess valve gear. 

 

To be fair, it did finally get the right number of slide bars and a combination lever, which was quite advanced by Hornby standards at the time. The characteristic Black Five expansion link bracket would have been a fairly easy addition in microstrip.

 

Blown away in appearance by the incoming Airfix and Mainline stuff of course.

[Gridiron]

On 25/12/2022 at 15:59, Steamport Southport said:

 

The Hornby Black Five came out about 1973 so you are well out on dates.

 

One of the first models with a Ringfield motor and part of the Silver Seal range of "super detailed" models when they disposed of all the old junk.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=211

 

 

Jason

Indeed 1973 is correct, I failed to notice the Hornby Guide did not list the examples in pure chronological order, but even so that still means it took about eight years to materialise from the time it was first proposed. It would interesting to compare when it first appeared in any catalogue. I don't think it was before 1970?

[GreatWesternFan220]

Not sure if this has already been posted but I've noticed there are now decorated renders (what you would see on the box) of R30224, R30226, and R30227 posted on Hornby's website. Nice to see that the valve gear is more refined (and slightly more accurate) than on the previous tooling as well as lamps being present on said renders; presumably these will be in the detail bag but that's something to worry about when the models are closer to release. Will be interesting to see if Hornby also do the locos with the eccentric rod bearing; I believe the steam generator model is one of those examples (which could explain why this doesn't have a render image; might still be in development?). Also it seems they are now due "Winter 2024-25".

[Delta_Who]

^R30227 BR, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5' Caprotti, 4-6-0, 44755 - Era 4 (Web Exclusive)

^R30226 BR, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5', 4-6-0, 45157 'Glasgow Highlander' - Era 5

^R30224 LMS, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5', 4-6-0, 5200 - Era 3

[Legend]

20 hours ago, Gridiron said:

Indeed 1973 is correct, I failed to notice the Hornby Guide did not list the examples in pure chronological order, but even so that still means it took about eight years to materialise from the time it was first proposed. It would interesting to compare when it first appeared in any catalogue. I don't think it was before 1970?

 

It did first appear in the 1973 catalogue along with tender driven Britannia . I think the valve gear was common to both , and had followed on from the first tender drive Evening Star from 1971.  From memory although announced in the 73 catalogue it only appeared in early 74. Still not bad considering the gestation periods of some models now 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Legend

[JSpencer]

38 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

^R30227 BR, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5' Caprotti, 4-6-0, 44755 - Era 4 (Web Exclusive)

^R30226 BR, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5', 4-6-0, 45157 'Glasgow Highlander' - Era 5

^R30224 LMS, Stanier 5MT 'Black 5', 4-6-0, 5200 - Era 3

 

No blackened valve gear and wheels? I had to do a double take think we were looking at 1970s at first...

[JhornG201]

The images are CAD renders so some aspects on the actual models won’t be as they appear in the images (such as the appearance of bright valve gear).

 

One thing I did note though is that 5200 CAD render has a riveted tender where locos in the same build series had flush sided tenders. So I’ve already emailed Hornby to seek clarity on this. For example, 5197 (same builder and same batch) here in ex-works condition has a flush sided tender: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/LMSSteam/Stanier-Locomotives/Stanier-Black-5/LMS-era/Stanier-Black-5s-in-the-LMS-era/i-D6gG34M

 

Edit 04/01/23: I’ve had a reply confirming 5200 will have a smooth sided tender, not the riveted one as shown in the CAD image

Edited January 4, 2023 by JhornG201
Detail correction