Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

That still doesn't remove the issue that you cannot pickup current from those wheels. As for the rubber well you have your opinion, I have mine. You cannot get rid of the fact, rubber is an incredibly good insulator, design isn't going to get rid of that. Those wheel will only pick up current on the flanges.

How many tyres do you think a model needs ?

 

1980’s Lima picked up on just 2  wheels of 6 on each side of a 37/47 etc. Only later they added 2 more pickups, on one side only.. so it picked up on 4 wheels oneside, 2 wheels the other side….

 

its problem wasnt the 2 tyres, it was pickups.

 

A Black five has 8 wheels each side (inc tender and ponies)

 

A Black 5 in 1990 had 3 driving wheels for pickups on one side, and 2 tender wheels for the other…. The rest just looked nice and rolled.

 

A Black 5 in 2022 has 6 wheels each side to use for pickups.

Adding a tyre to one each side would magnitudes improve the traction.

However Hornby still only uses 6 of them for pickups.

 

unless your running an 0-2-0 I think adding a tyre isnt an issue, but making full use of all wheels for pickups would help much more.

 

As I said, the Germans can make it work..8 out of 8 powered, pickup, and just 2 tyres, it will crawl slower, out perform and pickup equally or better than any other Bo-Bo. Its also very balanced, so ensuring all the wheels are actually touching the rails.. might sound obvious but ive seen many oo models where they dont always make contact.

 

I actually have a Bachmann split chassis manor running with the tyred wheels off an old Mainline 43xx… it will outperform many rtr steam today, as it combines weight, flywheel and tyre… and still picks up of 6 wheels either side (made from twine off a wine bottle), as I added pickups to the tender, giving 6 asside.. its unstoppable, even replaced the nylon axles with plastic rod from B&Q… one thing it wont do is stop for want of juice.

Edited April 26 by adb968008

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, zr2498 said:

Having just watched this video:

 

 

The risk of getting a dud seems much too high. If not initially, then could be soon after purchase.

Couple that with all of the other issues notes in this thread. Time to cancel the 2 preorders I have.

Perhaps, the returns and feedback will prompt some design changes, and only then, (perhaps) I would order future models.

 

As a consolation I doubt you would be able to fix it even if you took it apart, it sounds like an issue with the fingers on the edge connector, replacement is necessary. I was surprised when I saw Hornby had adopted this, edge connectors of this type were a constant issue on electronic equipment I used to have to fix. Interestingly my HD A4s have this arrangement and they seem to work ok, but I haven't really run them that much. The fingers probably got broken when they rammed the two together in plant. So it seems Sam wasn't all that wrong after all, eat humble pie Hornby Forum.

[ColinB]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

How many tyres do you think a model needs ?

 

1980’s Lima picked up on just 2  wheels of 6 on each side of a 37/47 etc. Only later they added 2 more pickups, on one side only.. so it picked up on 4 wheels oneside, 2 wheels the other side….

 

its problem wasnt the 2 tyres, it was pickups.

 

A Black five has 8 wheels each side (inc tender and ponies)

 

A Black 5 in 1990 had 3 driving wheels for pickups on one side, and 2 tender wheels for the other…. The rest just looked nice and rolled.

 

A Black 5 in 2022 has 6 wheels each side to use for pickups.

Adding a tyre to one each side would magnitudes improve the traction.

However Hornby still only uses 6 of them for pickups.

 

unless your running an 0-2-0 I think adding a tyre isnt an issue, but making full use of all wheels for pickups would help much more.

 

As I said, the Germans can make it work..8 out of 8 powered, pickup, and just 2 tyres, it will crawl slower, out perform and pickup equally or better than any other Bo-Bo. Its also very balanced, so ensuring all the wheels are actually touching the rails.. might sound obvious but ive seen many oo models where they dont always make contact.

 

I actually have a Bachmann split chassis manor running with the tyred wheels off an old Mainline 43xx… it will outperform many rtr steam today, as it combines weight, flywheel and tyre… and still picks up of 6 wheels either side (made from twine off a wine bottle), as I added pickups to the tender, giving 6 asside.. its unstoppable, even replaced the nylon axles with plastic rod from B&Q… one thing it wont do is stop for want of juice.

Have it your way, I don't like them, end of story, so I don't buy models with them. You can stagger them as Hornby do on their Railroad models, it sort of half works if the other pickup is working properly.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

That still doesn't remove the issue that you cannot pickup current from those wheels. As for the rubber well you have your opinion, I have mine. You cannot get rid of the fact, rubber is an incredibly good insulator, design isn't going to get rid of that. Those wheel will only pick up current on the flanges.

My Hornby Dublo AL1 had traction tyres on one axle of one bogie and picked up on the remaining 6.

It would pull a prodigious amount of load in one direction, not much in the other but current collection wasn't a problem.

Remarkably the only drive was to the axle with the tyres!

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I was surprised when I saw Hornby had adopted this, edge connectors of this type were a constant issue on electronic equipment I used to have to fix.

That's why they are normally gold plated in industry, I had plenty of experience of edge connectors in my job and non gold plated ones were a PITA.

One batch of equipment (several hundred sets) was so bad they had to go back to the manufacturer to have the connectors (both the PCBs & sockets) gold plated*, they were fine afterwards.

All newer ones came with gold plated ones as standard.

 

*Yes they were done in situ.

[GrumpyPenguin]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I have hundreds of locos..

My european ones are fine… some are 40 years old. Sure some wear out, none are irreplaceable.

 

I assume your ringfield motors have never needed a carbon brush replacing ? 100 hours, built in obsolescence.

 

Dont judge the tech by British technology of the 1970’s, but equally theres no reason why tech can’t go on adfinitum with spares.

 

I suspect my KRModels fell will fall by the wayside before my Lima locos do… but I equally think my Roco/Trix/Sudexpress /Piko 21st century locos will outlive nearly everything OO made this century… its not just tyres, its the whole engineering quality… engineered right, inc, dodgy pickups is not an issue with traction tyres, because things like weight, balance and suspension are engineered into the design…. There really isnt many complaints about Hornbys class 50… yet for the first decade it too had tyres, until it was recognised it was so heavy it didnt need them.

 

 

Absolutely spot on.

[GrumpyPenguin]

2 hours ago, maico said:

I use Trix C-track which has live frogs which change polarity depending on how they are switched. Pick-up is not a problem with anything I have be it DJH kit standard class 4 , Ho Trix, Brawa, Roco ,Piko, Hornby, or Bachmann Liliput.

 

With pick-ups on front and rear bogies, tender and all but one driven axle with traction tyres, juice is not a problem with these Trix steamers!

 

 

 

Is that Trix BR05 a tender driven one ?

I had a locomotiver drive one & it was useless from the  haulage POV.

I sold it reluctantly as it would not pull 10 x free running Liliput coaches on the level.

If yours in tender drive can you l;ey me know the catalogue number so that I can lkook out for one please ?

[maico]

1 hour ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Is that Trix BR05 a tender driven one ?

I had a locomotiver drive one & it was useless from the  haulage POV.

I sold it reluctantly as it would not pull 10 x free running Liliput coaches on the level.

If yours in tender drive can you l;ey me know the catalogue number so that I can lkook out for one please ?

 

I don't think there are any tender driven Marklin-Trix locos in the modern era. I have quite a large collection.

[Bernard Lamb]

9 hours ago, Fireline said:

 

Oh, Sam. Mr "I give anything from Hornby an absolute kicking, coincidentally from around the time they stopped just giving me stuff to review...."

Did you actually look at his review?

I am not in the habit of watching them, but in this case I did and it is quite clear as to what he found out about the lamps. He also pointed out a hell of a lot of other problems.

Bernard

[ColinB]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

That's why they are normally gold plated in industry, I had plenty of experience of edge connectors in my job and non gold plated ones were a PITA.

One batch of equipment (several hundred sets) was so bad they had to go back to the manufacturer to have the connectors (both the PCBs & sockets) gold plated*, they were fine afterwards.

All newer ones came with gold plated ones as standard.

 

*Yes they were done in situ.

Even with the gold plating they are only good for between 10 to 20 connects/disconnects. We used to have racks of test instrumentation with the circuit boards with these edge connectors.

[ColinB]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Did you actually look at his review?

I am not in the habit of watching them, but in this case I did and it is quite clear as to what he found out about the lamps. He also pointed out a hell of a lot of other problems.

Bernard

He also said at the end that perhaps he got a bad one. We now know he wasn't the only one. I wonder if they used a different production facility that was not so careful connecting loco to tender. Looking at the other reviewer that had issues, it sounds like one the edge connector pins is bent inside its housing.

[Silver Sidelines]

I would say not a lot wrong with the previous Hornby Black Five.  Rock steady, smooth and quiet.  I should shorten the tender draw bar and add a driver and fireman.  My notes say that I have ballasted the engine to nearly 300g for better haulage.  I guess the problem for Hornby is how to generate more money from a range of well tried existing models - hence perhaps the totally new TT range.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by Silver Sidelines

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

I would say not a lot wrong with the previous Hornby Black Five.  Rock steady, smooth and quiet.

I would agree with that.

I have one, bought S/H at a reasonable price and there is little wrong with it as a model of a Black 5.

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, maico said:

 

I don't think there are any tender driven Marklin-Trix locos in the modern era. I have quite a large collection.

Thanks for the info'. Looks like I will have to get a Liliput one & remotor it.

[MikeParkin65]

According to the blurb for the just announced Rails Ltd edition of 5428 as preserved the model has a flywheel. Anybody taken the loco body off yet and able to confirm? https://railsofsheffield.com/search?q=R30387 black 5&_kx=nTbDlYO2tIJF0g9_RHJfhaYIH4IEvjBwUEE9OGmQgKbqnSFePN1n7xZw98DdvMB7.RXkVMS&utm_campaign=Exclusive Railway Icons Hornby Black 5 Announcement&utm_id=01HWCTPR051J0D68J9Z228C817&utm_medium=campaign&utm_source=Klaviyo

[daltonparva]

The colour of the valve gear/rods on the new Eric Treacy looks a bit jarring.  Something else to have a go at.

[Rick_Skateboard]

Interesting that the computer render doesn't have any lamps on it. EDIT - there might be one in the middle of the bufferbeam actually.

 

Rick

Edited April 27 by Rick_Skateboard

[zr2498]

31 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

According to the blurb for the just announced Rails Ltd edition of 5428 as preserved the model has a flywheel. Anybody taken the loco body off yet and able to confirm? https://railsofsheffield.com/search?q=R30387 black 5&_kx=nTbDlYO2tIJF0g9_RHJfhaYIH4IEvjBwUEE9OGmQgKbqnSFePN1n7xZw98DdvMB7.RXkVMS&utm_campaign=Exclusive Railway Icons Hornby Black 5 Announcement&utm_id=01HWCTPR051J0D68J9Z228C817&utm_medium=campaign&utm_source=Klaviyo

Oh dear! One of my favourite locos, as I often see it at the NYMR. It was in the workshop on Thursday last. Now I am tempted, but then I could get an Ellis Clark O gauge version with the correct size lamps, however it my derail on my OO gauge track.

Hornby often put stuff into the specification which is not fact. If there is provision for a steam generator, then the flywheel is probably missing.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by zr2498

[Sjcm]

So far I've seen 3 you tubers with the tender problem and 2 people in the comments that had to return their models. Even the favourable class47peters' video posted on here mentions it didn't work out the box until he pushed the tender in properly - is that just a one-off or the sign of a weakness that will only get worse?

 

Trouble is there is a culture in our hobby of fixing stuff that you don't get elsewhere with new products for whatever the reason (don't want the hassle of returning/like the challenge/worried they won't get a replacement quickly?). Be interesting if someone posts a "how I fixed my black5" video on YouTube because given the price and complexity, Hornby may have reached the tipping point where people are prepared to start dismantling a new model rather than just sending it back.

[zr2498]

12 minutes ago, Rick_Skateboard said:

Interesting that the computer render doesn't have any lamps on it. EDIT - there might be one in the middle of the bufferbeam actually.

 

Rick

Yep! Light engine. But at least one not fixed to the smokebox door.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, daltonparva said:

The colour of the valve gear/rods on the new Eric Treacy looks a bit jarring.  Something else to have a go at.

 

Seems to be correct according to @zr2498's photos above as this is of course a model of the loco in preserved condition.  Rods and smokebox door will probably look like 5200 on the actual model.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

20 minutes ago, Sjcm said:

Trouble is there is a culture in our hobby of fixing stuff that you don't get elsewhere with new products for whatever the reason (don't want the hassle of returning/like the challenge/worried they won't get a replacement quickly?). Be interesting if someone posts a "how I fixed my black5" video on YouTube because given the price and complexity, Hornby may have reached the tipping point where people are prepared to start dismantling a new model rather than just sending it back.

This culture doesn't trouble me: before there was RTR OO worth purchasing as a model, everything had to be built by DIY using kit components. Now we get fully assembled kits, and happily an increasing proportion of these fully deserve the 'RTR' label: Joy unbounded, I don't have to run the loco, carriage and wagon works, more time for my real interest in timetable operation.

 

But all models that come my way get taken apart to some extent, because improvements and adjustments can be made. Hornby's product typically gets the most extensive treatment, because among the current brands it has the largest content of toytrainium in its offerings, which can be discarded: first to go are wiper pick ups on tender wheels. (They are only fitted to try to help the loco get over the dreadful design set track pointwork, completely unnecessary on a live crossing layout.) And there's much more besides.

 

As far as I am concerned, now that it is generally recognised that scale dimensions and appearance - insofar as that is possible within the necessary OO compromise for UK subject matter - all is generally well. The minor problems and deficiencies can be quickly fixed: HURRAH!

 

Once there's a plain and simple Hornby Black 5 in BR late crest on sale, it'll be in pieces on my bench the moment it's completed infant mortality acceptance testing.

 

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

...As I said, the Germans can make it work...

Yes, they can in their RTR HO product, which is made to a long time well developed standard, with an extensive range of toytrainium input and performs impressively. And it is so marvellous that 'modellers that can' adopt P87 to get rid of the toytrainium and have true scale models, which  - surprise! - won't get around the minimum radius HO set track curves.

 

There's little point in making comparisons between RTR HO and RTR OO, which developed on very different paths reflecting aspects of national character, there ordnung, here gung-ho; the chance of any future convergence is so small as to be ignored...

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Re-Rails version of Eric Treacy. 
As the model isn't available until November, then presumably Rails haven't seen a copy yet and are under the impression that it'll have a flywheel. Though they clearly state in their advert that "features include" said flywheel. So do they know FOR SURE?

[Sjcm]

14 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

This culture doesn't trouble me: before there was RTR OO worth purchasing as a model, everything had to be built by DIY using kit components. Now we get fully assembled kits, and happily an increasing proportion of these fully deserve the 'RTR' label: Joy unbounded, I don't have to run the loco, carriage and wagon works, more time for my real interest in timetable operation.

 

But all models that come my way get taken apart to some extent, because improvements and adjustments can be made. Hornby's product typically gets the most extensive treatment, because among the current brands it has the largest content of toytrainium in its offerings, which can be discarded: first to go are wiper pick ups on tender wheels. (They are only fitted to try to help the loco get over the dreadful design set track pointwork, completely unnecessary on a live crossing layout.) And there's much more besides.

 

As far as I am concerned, now that it is generally recognised that scale dimensions and appearance - insofar as that is possible within the necessary OO compromise for UK subject matter - all is generally well. The minor problems and deficiencies can be quickly fixed: HURRAH!

 

Once there's a plain and simple Hornby Black 5 in BR late crest on sale, it'll be in pieces on my bench the moment it's completed infant mortality acceptance testing.

 

Yes, they can in their RTR HO product, which is made to a long time well developed standard, with an extensive range of toytrainium input and performs impressively. And it is so marvellous that 'modellers that can' adopt P87 to get rid of the toytrainium and have true scale models, which  - surprise! - won't get around the minimum radius HO set track curves.

 

There's little point in making comparisons between RTR HO and RTR OO, which developed on very different paths reflecting aspects of national character, there ordnung, here gung-ho; the chance of any future convergence is so small as to be ignored...

Yeah, it was more an observation on how everyone seems reluctant to delve deeper with the problems and why? I don't subscribe to Sam's trains or watch a lot of his stuff, but I do know he's not adverse to taking apart new models for major surgery like many youtubers. Yet this time he's not touched it, even to look at the mechanism. Like wise the other guy posted on here who again has tried to fix new models before. As someone who would return a new faulty loco out of principle, I wonder if the people who would usually have a dabble, have gone "nope, not touching a 230 pound loco under warranty"

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 minute ago, Sjcm said:

I wonder if the people who would usually have a dabble, have gone "nope, not touching a 230 pound loco under warranty"

Bought the very lovely Hornby P2 as no 2003 'Lord President', and had it all in pieces after test running was complete, decoder now in Loco, tender wiper pick ups removed, etc.. It's way cheaper than a self build model would be. Does that answer the question? (Overall I rate it very good.)

 

The main motivation was assessing the mechanism for a future project acquisition. Gresley would so have advanced to a 4-8-4 had he been spared...