Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Sjcm]

Another YouTuber with the same problem as Sam's trains

 

 

 

['CHARD]

2 hours ago, Roy L S said:

The real issue is that only if a loco were running "light engine" 

 

I think you mean "lamp engine."

 

 

I'll get me coat.

[maico]

On 23/04/2024 at 19:20, adb968008 said:

 

 

Its also worth considering how the factory translates it…. Afterall working headlamps on steam locomotive models has been the norm in HO for nigh on 50 years… its 00 thats only just now catching up…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Longer than that. This Pre-War Marklin Ho 3-rail has running bulbs.

 

The Chinese factories are well versed in LEDs they must be puzzled Hornby don't normally specify them!

 

If someone doesn't want the Black 5 ones pull off and replace with lamp irons has shown on YouTube...

Edited April 24 by maico

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Longer than that. This Pre-War Marklin Ho 3-rail has running bulbs.

 

The Chinese factories are well versed in LEDs they must be puzzled Hornby don't normally specify them!

 

If someone doesn't want the Black 5 ones pull off and replace with lamp irons has shown on YouTube...

 

I suggest you pay attention to what Hornby model - i.e. British Trains!

 

HO locomotives may well have had lights for years - but you go look at the lights fitted to European or North American steam locos - they are HUGE!

 

This is because unlike the UK said railways were not required to be fenced in and thus a strong headlight was considered important so crew could see obstructions on the track in time to give a loud warning on the whistle and whatever was on the tracks a chance of getting clear. That headlight was also permanently fixed in position and was always physically present in the same place regardless of the train being hauled.

 

Therefore when it comes to putting lights on the front of HO gauge locos its easy - it becomes no different to boiler pipework, bells, whistles, safety valves, wheels, etc because they remain mounted on the loco at all times and moreover there is usually only one of them. 

 

By contrast in the UK steam (and early diesel) lights were small - and dim! They did NOT illuminate anything ahead of the loco primarily because there was no need to do so as UK railways have, since their earliest days been required to maintain fencing top stop things getting onto the line*.

 

Instead the lights on the front of UK trains / locos were to give routing information and information about the type of train so as to aid station staff and signalmen in their duties of regulating the railway efficiently. which strangely means they had to be dim - otherwise staff would be dazzled at close range and also wouldn't be able to determine the pattern of lights from a distance.

 

Loco lamps on UK steam locos were thus also removable simply by a crew member lifting them off a bracket and during daylight hours white painted discs were often used instead on said bracket with no lamps present on the loco at all! - The painted discs metal discs gave the required routing information to observers during the day which the arrangement of lamps did at night.

 

Consequently adding lighting to UK outline steam locos is a very different proposition to fitting it to HO ones - UK lighting solutions must allow for the removal of some or all lamps, their repositioning between 4 and 6 different locations and their complete replacement plain white discs for daylight running while the lamp representations need to be tiny relatively speaking.

 

Thats why up till now no UK manufacturer has tried to put them on 00 scale models - and Hornbys attempts are actually pretty poor.

 

 

[melmerby]

Some of the later Black 5s had fixed electric lamps, they also had white discs for use during the day.

One is the famous (4)4767 with outside Stephensons gear.

There's a 1948 photo in Essery & Jenkinson's LMS locomotives taken at Preston with it carrying two discs in Express Passenger configuration.

[adb968008]

36 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I suggest you pay attention to what Hornby model - i.e. British Trains!

 

HO locomotives may well have had lights for years - but you go look at the lights fitted to European or North American steam locos - they are HUGE!

 

 these arent that big.

neither are these..as you can see its all glass, the bulbs fairly normal.

Size isnt everything. They are fixed position though, thats the real translation issue.

 

36 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is because unlike the UK said railways were not required to be fenced in and thus a strong headlight was considered important so crew could see obstructions on the track in time to give a loud warning on the whistle and whatever was on the tracks a chance of getting clear. That headlight was also permanently fixed in position and was always physically present in the same place regardless of the train being hauled.

 

Therefore when it comes to putting lights on the front of HO gauge locos its easy - it becomes no different to boiler pipework, bells, whistles, safety valves, wheels, etc because they remain mounted on the loco at all times and moreover there is usually only one of them. 

 

By contrast in the UK steam (and early diesel) lights were small - and dim! They did NOT illuminate anything ahead of the loco primarily because there was no need to do so as UK railways have, since their earliest days been required to maintain fencing top stop things getting onto the line*.

 

Instead the lights on the front of UK trains / locos were to give routing information and information about the type of train so as to aid station staff and signalmen in their duties of regulating the railway efficiently. which strangely means they had to be dim - otherwise staff would be dazzled at close range and also wouldn't be able to determine the pattern of lights from a distance.

 

Loco lamps on UK steam locos were thus also removable simply by a crew member lifting them off a bracket and during daylight hours white painted discs were often used instead on said bracket with no lamps present on the loco at all! - The painted discs metal discs gave the required routing information to observers during the day which the arrangement of lamps did at night.

 

Consequently adding lighting to UK outline steam locos is a very different proposition to fitting it to HO ones - UK lighting solutions must allow for the removal of some or all lamps, their repositioning between 4 and 6 different locations and their complete replacement plain white discs for daylight running while the lamp representations need to be tiny relatively speaking.

 

Thats why up till now no UK manufacturer has tried to put them on 00 scale models - and Hornbys attempts are actually pretty poor.

 

 

So now translate that to Chinese, and expect them to get it right first time.

 

I want a light, that doesnt light up, but does actually work, but might never be fitted at all.

 

Why, its because its not for seeing your way in the dark.

Oh and actually its a lamp because a light is a window.

Reminds me of a conversation I had at the Portola railroad museum once, the guy asked if I had a light, I said ive got a torch…

 

He replied if your still using torches in Britain ive got a business proposition for you.

 

Frank Carson would be right for this job… its the way you tell em.

Edited April 24 by adb968008

[Peter Kazmierczak]

They could've fitted Chinese lanterns, I suppose...

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

They could've fitted Chinese lanterns, I suppose...

Trouble is, they would blow away in the wind.....🙂

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

I want a light, that doesnt light up, but does actually work, but might never be fitted at all.

 

Why, its because its not for seeing your way in the dark.

 

That’s actually a pretty good description of what’s needed on 99% of British steam loco.

 

And yes as you say in the UK paraffin lamps on steam locos  / marker light on diesels are not for seeing your way in the dark any more than sidelights are on your car!

 

Or to put it another way, the sidelights on your car are there for others to see you - not for you to see others. That’s why vehicles also come with separate and much more powerful headlights…. Something UK locos generally lacked until the 1990s!

[Dunsignalling]

The usage of lamp and light is (nowadays) generally interchangeable in both the rail and automotive spheres, but there are individual examples that don't quite seem "right". In the past, "light" was often reserved to devices that one can see by, e.g., in the interior sense we have strip-lights, not strip-lamps. Don't get me into "Hurricane", "Bardic" (usually lamp) or "Tilley" (seemingly either), though..... 

 

Head, side and tail lamps were usually referred to thus in car owners' manuals until quite recent times (and may still be, by some makers), though "light" has come into more common usage. I think "daylight running lamps", is grammatically preferable to "daylight running lights". The latter always seems a bit "clunky" to me, whilst "Daytime running lights", sounds perfectly OK! 😉 

 

Living English is such a delight, with subtle differences some latch on to while others remain unaware or indifferent; we don't just have an unwritten constitution!

 

Getting back on the rails, Bulleids have many more electric lights; in addition to the front headcode lamps, there are six more on the tender.  Nestling among those, there's a downlighter to aid coupling up, various gauge lamps/lights in the cab, and assortment of built-in inspection lights/lamps up under the air-smoothed casing (running plate on rebuilt locos). **

 

TTBOMK, though, the red option illustrated earlier is a preservation-era addition.   

 

John   

 

** Please, Please, Please, Hornby, don't even think about it.....

Edited April 25 by Dunsignalling

[GrumpyPenguin]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

I suggest you pay attention to what Hornby model - i.e. British Trains!

 

Therefore when it comes to putting lights on the front of HO gauge locos its easy - it becomes no different to boiler pipework, bells, whistles, safety valves, wheels, etc because they remain mounted on the loco at all times and moreover there is usually only one of them.

Hornby also model European & North American trains - Rivarossi, Lima, Jouef, Electrotren & Arnold.

 

European (mostly German) steam locomotives used to carry 2 x illuminated items mounted above the buffer beams on each side. Later, a third illumitated item was added higher up & central - this was to differenciate (speeling?) between road & rail traffic where unfenced railway lines run alongsidfe roads.

Early lamps were in fact huge on the locomotives that were not equiped with electic generators (hope that's the correct word - may be dynamo or alternator) or some form of electrical storage (such as dry cells or lead acid). Even some of the electrically powered illuminated items were still large - they used a white painted reflector & AFAIK a 25w Pearl lamp with an ediston screw bas but I have no idea of the voltage.

 

More or less carried over to diesel & electric but some also have a high intesity illuminated item which may or may not be called a headlamp or a headlight.

 

AFAIK filament lamps (as the componant, not the whole fitting/lamp) are known in some parts of the world as "globes".

 

There will of course be many variants..................

Edited April 25 by GrumpyPenguin

[Roy Langridge]

On 21/04/2024 at 14:32, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not that old chestnut. Probably more people travelling behind steam on Heritage Railways this weekend than there are people modelling modern railways.

Although some retailers suggest diesel is now outselling steam. Without all the actual sales figures, we do not know. 
 

Roy

[E100]

13 hours ago, Roy L S said:

The real issue is that only if a loco were running "light engine" (i.e. without a train) would a lamp be fitted to the rear of the tender at all. That rear lamp denotes the rear of the train is present i.e. to a signalman that the train is complete, were there any train behind the tender there would never be a lamp positioned there under any circumstances that I am aware of, the tail-lamp would be on the last vehicle in the train.

 

I honestly see no reason to change my initial thinking that this kind of lighting is nothing more than an ill-conceived and rather "naff" gimmick that adds very little and isn't truly credible, much better stick to getting the basics right I would say.

 

Roy

 

Yeah, I appreciate that it's only there in those circumstances. We simply fall into the two different camps:

1. Features should only be added if they are completely prototypical or can be easily changed to be so RTR i.e. no chopping of parts

2. Happy to see a manufacturer push into new features even if the first couple of attempts are a bit rougher round the edges and have some compromises.

 

I think to my mind being switchable on DCC is fair. On with no way to switch it off is not. Give them a couple of years and they will probably be smaller and they'll make the back one(s) removable as well. Maybe I'm too optimistic!

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Or to put it another way, the sidelights on your car are there for others to see you - not for you to see others. That’s why vehicles also come with separate and much more powerful headlights…. Something UK locos generally lacked until the 1990s!

I thought it was supposed to be lamps ?

 

according to your earlier post….

 

 

indeed here even the MOT agrees..

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#:~:text=Front and rear position lamps,function as front position lamps.

 

Language Inconsistency is a tolerated fact of life, you can mince words all day, but everyone knows what you mean.

Doesnt stop money being made, I was once paid £1500 a day to meet with banks and discuss if the bottom most position of a server rack (known as an RU) was 0 or 1… I did that session more than 30 times, so theres money to be made in mincing words (and numbers)… some heated conversations between very senior IT directors about labelling  a 1.75” x 19” wide piece of space..

 

Twenty years later there still isnt an agreed standard, its a company and vendor specific issue that causes expensive headaches with planners…it can cause outages, over heating, unplanned capex, delays. No doubt ERTMS will face similar debates if theres multiple vendors of hardware for the racks in rolling stock… I can forsee the day a fleet cannot be upgraded because the hardware is incorrectly mounted or shuts down overheated all because of a trivial label taken for granted.

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

19 minutes ago, E100 said:

 

Give them a couple of years and they will probably be smaller and they'll make the back one(s) removable as well. Maybe I'm too optimistic!

 

....... or, develop the concept for the additional couple of years BEFORE announcing it, and really wow the market with a proper system.

 

Releasing a half-*rsed product merely generates adverse publicity, and condemns the whole concept from the outset.

 

The rush to recoup the cost of development always triumphs, though - I can hear the bean-counters in the boardroom now - "When are we going to see a return on investment"?

 

CJI.

Edited April 25 by cctransuk

[Roy Langridge]

46 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The rush to recoup the cost of development always triumphs, though - I can hear the bean-counters in the boardroom now - "When are we going to see a return on investment"?

 

CJI.

And there in lies the conundrum for many businesses. Hornby’s financial position isn’t great, yet it wants to compete.
 

Just releasing “standard“ models may not be enough, but to fully develop the next initiative may not be financially viable.
 

What we see is probably the compromise that meets many of their customers’ needs. 
 

Roy

Edited April 25 by Roy Langridge
Typo

[adb968008]

how much does 3x 0204 leds, a bit of wire cost, and cutting a few 3x4mm pieces of plastic off a sprue.

If the model didnt have it, the price would still be the same. Indeed if lamps are abandoned, the next run of Black 5’s could simply not include it, have the lamp irons fitted and still be priced higher due to inflation.

moaning about lamps is just an excuse, unlike the W1, Turbomotive these lamps are adjustable…

indeed theres absolutely nothing stopping a modeller doing exactly that today… remove the lamps, fit the lamp iron, buy some 1980’s springside lamps and hey presto your happily back in your 2008 Black 5 quality bubble.

sell the lamps as spares on ebay, you’ll find a ton of takers.

 

My issue with 5200 isnt the lamps, I like it. I think the whole Black 5 is a magnitude improvement. I dont like repainting a £200 model to make it closer match, and watching its value fall quite steeply as a result… if 45157 has the wheels right, like the EP, i’m probably in.

 

Now whats to moan about next ?

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Where did the idea of changeable lamp positions come from? Did Hornby have focus groups to see what features modellers wanted on their locos? Or was it more just one person in the firm saying "let's try this"? 

I haven't seen much groundswell on RMweb, for example, for this feature. But then again, Tri-ang/Hornby have long been into "features".  Remember Magnadhesion (have I spelt it right) from the early 60s and the Seuthe smoke units of the same period units. The M7 with opening firebox door (and illuminated firebox) from 1967, etc.

So they have "form" for this.

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Where did the idea of changeable lamp positions come from? Did Hornby have focus groups to see what features modellers wanted on their locos? Or was it more just one person in the firm saying "let's try this"? 

I haven't seen much groundswell on RMweb, for example, for this feature. But then again, Tri-ang/Hornby have long been into "features".  Remember Magnadhesion (have I spelt it right) from the early 60s and the Seuthe smoke units of the same period units. The M7 with opening firebox door (and illuminated firebox) from 1967, etc.

So they have "form" for this.

Dapols A4 seemed to have been the catalyst for Hornbys upscaling in the recent modelling era… thats December 2015.., in peoples hands December 2016.

 

it had sound, lights and smoke, oh and a metal body…. (Dublo appeared with 6231 in 2020).

 

 

The W1 followed, with non working lights..in Jan 2022

 

 

 

then the Turbo with working lights in September 2023

Err… this is the point people started seeing red about lights… literally.

 

the Black 5 seems the next evolution with posable lights.

Hornby smoke and the metal body dublo  has followed a similar trajectory and timeline.

 

its worth pointing out Dapol A4’s £400 price tag was seen as high then, roll on to 44726 with lights and steam is £292, and its plastic, and the dublo ones are over £300 in metal without sound and lights its actually inflation friendly.

 

Dapol did state the A4 was first in a series of Black label locomotives, but no more followed, not even a re-run of the A4, and there has been a few grumblings about the features there too.

 

I do think the Dapol A4 set a standard that has still to be beaten, rainstrips and spare “traction tyred” options havent been copied, though the big box size has been adopted by nearly everyone… But in features terms it had it all… 

 

If Dapol had followed the Black label A4 with an A3 in 2017, a Duchess in 2018, Princess in 2019 etc  Hornby could have been in trouble with all the other duplication wars they were fighting.

 

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

how much does 3x 0204 leds, a bit of wire cost, and cutting a few 3x4mm pieces of plastic off a sprue.

If the model didnt have it, the price would still be the same. Indeed if lamps are abandoned, the next run of Black 5’s could simply not include it, have the lamp irons fitted and still be priced higher due to inflation.

moaning about lamps is just an excuse, unlike the W1, Turbomotive these lamps are adjustable…

indeed theres absolutely nothing stopping a modeller doing exactly that today… remove the lamps, fit the lamp iron, buy some 1980’s springside lamps and hey presto your happily back in your 2008 Black 5 quality bubble.

sell the lamps as spares on ebay, you’ll find a ton of takers.

 

My issue with 5200 isnt the lamps, I like it. I think the whole Black 5 is a magnitude improvement. I dont like repainting a £200 model to make it closer match, and watching its value fall quite steeply as a result… if 45157 has the wheels right, like the EP, i’m probably in.

 

Now whats to moan about next ?

 

 

 

'Moan' is used to often these days as a pejorative. It isnt unreasonable for us, as modellers and prospective purchasers of this new version of the Black 5 to express our disappointment at how it has been spoilt by a couple of very minor changes that have no place on a well researched scale model (remember it says in the small print 'this is not a toy'!). 

 

I've voted with my wallet on this one and cancelled my pre order (which I deliberately made with a large box shifter so as not to leave a smaller dealer stuck with stock as I could see the way the model was evolving) .

 

As @cctransuk said earlier the working lamps would be welcome if they were properly developed and didnt compromise the core product. As they are at the moment they would be much better deployed on a Railroad Model - Tornado perhaps? 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 21/04/2024 at 11:47, Silver Sidelines said:

 

It always puzzled me why Heljan thought we needed a new Peak.  I was equally baffled with the Accurascale Deltics.  Then if we look at the Manors there is much to puzzle over and to question why Bachmann never updated their model.

 

Heljan & Accurascale are the same as any other companies - in business to make a profit.  It's not a question of do we need another Peak.  It's a question if they produce this model, will it sell in sufficient quantity to make an acceptable return on their investment.

 

In the case of the Deltics, that model was so far ahead of what the competition had produced, it must have reinforced their reputation for quality and acccuracy, setting modellers expectations which will make it easier to sell us future products.

 

If Bachmann had a decent model of a Manor and there was demand in the market for an upgraded version, missng such an opportunity would just mean they either didn't have the appropriate resources free at the time or perhaps were simply asleep at the wheel.  Perhaps they judged that some alternative project that they did pursue instead would give them a better return.

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Some of the later Black 5s had fixed electric lamps, they also had white discs for use during the day.

One is the famous (4)4767 with outside Stephensons gear.

There's a 1948 photo in Essery & Jenkinson's LMS locomotives taken at Preston with it carrying two discs in Express Passenger configuration.

 

Didn't last long. Without digging the books out to give exact dates I think they were removed after about four years. Certainly gone by 1954.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p129376112/e38c653e0

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The usage of lamp and light is (nowadays) generally interchangeable in both the rail and automotive spheres, but there are individual examples that don't quite seem "right". In the past, "light" was often reserved to devices that one can see by, e.g., in the interior sense we have strip-lights, not strip-lamps.

 

 

So a tallow candle is a lamp, not a light and ships have navigation lamps not navigation lights. 

And if the foghorn isn't sounding they should be able to see the lamphouse.

[cctransuk]

On 25/04/2024 at 10:23, Roy Langridge said:

And there in lies the conundrum for many businesses. Hornby’s financial position isn’t great, yet it wants to compete.
 

Just releasing “standard“ models may not be enough, but to fully develop the next initiative may not be financially viable.
 

What we see is probably the compromise that meets many of their customers’ needs. 
 

Roy

 

The question to answer is this - would the new Black Five have sold as well, or even better, WITHOUT working lamps, close-coupled(??) tender and 'bling' all over the place?

 

IMHO, a resounding 'better' - I have two or three Black Five projects that I would willing have sold on, if only I could have had an 'Accurascale' standard model, without gimmicks that I would then have to remove.

 

In this case (and others), Hornby are trying too hard - concentrate on producing quality models of popular prototypes, that are demonstrably superior to what is already on the market.

 

Ditch the gimmicks - they are more trouble than they are worth!

 

CJI.

Edited April 26 by cctransuk

[adb968008]

25 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

'Moan' is used to often these days as a pejorative. It isnt unreasonable for us, as modellers and prospective purchasers of this new version of the Black 5 to express our disappointment at how it has been spoilt by a couple of very minor changes that have no place on a well researched scale model (remember it says in the small print 'this is not a toy'!). 

 

I've voted with my wallet on this one and cancelled my pre order (which I deliberately made with a large box shifter so as not to leave a smaller dealer stuck with stock as I could see the way the model was evolving) .

 

As @cctransuk said earlier the working lamps would be welcome if they were properly developed and didnt compromise the core product. As they are at the moment they would be much better deployed on a Railroad Model - Tornado perhaps? 

So remove the lights… they are supposedly configurable with lamp irons in the bag.

 

No doubt a good shop like TMC could probably do it for you.

This is the evolution the W1 and 6202 didnt have, and presumably done with people with flexible requirements like yourself in mind.

it shouldnt be any different to choosing whether or not to add a snowplough or coupling shank.

 

Edited April 25 by adb968008