Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[zr2498]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

U have to wonder why models arent using usb-c connectors…

 

its an industry standard, cheap as cheaps, easily understood and of course an EU standard.

 

its not charging anything but its still more pins than a model will need and robust and smaller than the current solution too.

I did have a look at those 8 pin USBs, but then I wondered about the current ratings?

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Which would be a great shame. The Caprotti was on display yesterday and looked very promising I have to say.

Good to hear.

 

I'm pretty much resigned to "deleting" the lighting when mine arrives unless somebody (Modelu, perhaps?) comes up with fine scale replacement inserts. 

 

If the tender won't close-couple, the link will also be for the chop, so it doesn't matter how well (or not) it conducts electricity.

 

Any non-Caprotti purchases will be deferred pending redesign.

 

John

[woodenhead]

Anyone reading this thread and hoping Ellis Clark might be reading this thread and thinking what if.......

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A lot of my locos spend long periods out of use, and one thing I can say, is the wheels on my stock has never gone egg shaped from standing still…I think your stretching it a bit with that one.

😀

The point is rubber doesn’t like being compressed for long peroid, nor stored in too damp, or too dry conditions.

 

put rubber round a metal wheel (be it a car or a model train) and the tyres will suffer - even if they were made to perfection

 

By contrast the metal wheels will (assuming they were made correctly will not be adversely affected by climatic conditions or being left compressed for long periods.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, zr2498 said:

Not sure why Hornby need the 8 pins as the firebox glow is on constant and fed from the loco pick ups I assume. However 8 pin would be better for those that want to have DCC control of firebox glow

Because there are the working lamps as well as the smoke unit which needs to be considered!

 

The 4 pin is fine if you have no gizmos so all you need is two wires from the pick ups on the loco and 2 wires to take power to the motor!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

If made properly Mazak will never become brittle or crumble.

Strictly, that is an invalid statement. No one has the data to support it, because this is a relatively new alloy.

 

On the evidence to date it appears to be stable for the upper end of a human lifetime, (which to my mind is good enough for the classes of goods made using it) but that's no guarantee of permanently free from degradation.

[adb968008]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

The point is rubber doesn’t like being compressed for long peroid, nor stored in too damp, or too dry conditions.

 

put rubber round a metal wheel (be it a car or a model train) and the tyres will suffer - even if they were made to perfection

 

By contrast the metal wheels will (assuming they were made correctly will not be adversely affected by climatic conditions or being left compressed for long periods.

All metal can definitely oxidize in damp conditions…

It wasnt unknown for loco wheels to be rusted to the rails they sat on at Barry.

 

its not unique to model railways.

 

I once had a 1990’s era Hornby black 5 brought to me for repair… rusted solid motion to the wheels to the chassis.

It took some effort to get the motion and wheels off, oddly the plastic bushes on the insulating side was fine, but equally the tyres had rotted to the wheelsets too… it had been stored in damp for sometime.

 

There are pictures of oxidisation on models in various parts of the forum, invariably bare metal thats been touched by greasy fingers starting to react over time, often confused for mazak rot, but its decay rather than cracking and easily treated if caught early.

 

My experience of the hobby is whats killed most locos has been the nylon axles of Bachmann, mainline, replica and some Dapol models of the 1970’s - 1990’s… fortunately theres solutions for that too, but low value, better replacements has turned many of them into binware. Triang, Hornby, Lima keeps going, until it gets binned, or stripped for spares, I dont think they get binned for want of traction tyres.

 

Imo DCC will kill many of todays models.. electronics board failure, and things we are already noting, like the couplings. You can’t replace that tender coupling on todays Black 5 with a paperclip, a cutting off an anchor butter container, match stick, wine bottle twine etc etc like you used to…

Edited April 28 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Anyone reading this thread and hoping Ellis Clark might be reading this thread and thinking what if.......

Bachmann also have relatively recent research for their 2 mm model as well of course. And the 8F ……. 

[ColinB]

5 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

I really don't see what was wrong with the previous small electronics plug and wire between loco and tender. Could be tucked up neatly and ended up looking like hoses anyway. It also enables prototypical drawbar size and location (the best I've seen this done is on the 7mt and 9F. The only problem is if you need to separate loco and tender and are cack-handed enough to damage the pins/dislocate the wires. Then again I've performed this operation tens of times and never had a problem - using the Hornby tool, sometimes a screwdriver to lever a bit more, and a lot of care. But this should really be a rare event.

I suspect they are passing about ten wires between loco and tender so the bundle of wires would be noticeable. I have no issue with the current 4 pin arrangement although I have had the odd one where the wire wasn't crimped properly. Imagine trying to crimp ten wires, they would be sure, to mess that up.

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, zr2498 said:

 except for loco / tender there is not gap adjustment.

Why would you need/want to adjust a properly engineered close coupling mechanism ?

[GrumpyPenguin]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Shared legal responsibility is a recipe for confusion, buck passing and legal wriggle room. There's nothing preventing a manufacturer offering a warranty and return to base service, and many do, but ultimately UK consumer law puts responsibility with the seller. That is clear and unambiguous. The seller will have their own relationship with the distributor/manufacturer.

What is "clear and unambiguous" is that I suggested that the end user had a choice of which way he/she wanted to go if they had a warrenty issue - not exactly diffecult to get your head round.

[Michael Hodgson]

I would like a Caprotti 5, but if it's got as many problems as these version seem to have, I'll be passing on the Hornby one. 

Of course there is the possibility that it prove OK - but I'll have missed out by the time we know.

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

U have to wonder why models arent using usb-c connectors…

 

its an industry standard, cheap as cheaps, easily understood and of course an EU standard.

 

its not charging anything but its still more pins than a model will need and robust and smaller than the current solution too.

It's an industry standard for connecting "device's" to chargers &/or data transmission - using it on models ? Just waiting for some numpty to plug the wrong things in & causing damage.

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

True, but that costs a lot more than the red box lot are plainly prepared to pay for = loss of profits

Whilst agreeing that the tooling would be costly, with a littl bit of thought the coupling/connector could be used throughout the range as locomotives are produced or upgraded.

Would be useful on MU's or coaches even, so the costs over time would pale to nothing.

Still, all the time UK modellers accept what is on the table things won't change much.

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Why would you need/want to adjust a properly engineered close coupling mechanism ?

 

Self-answering question?

 

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I would like a Caprotti 5, but if it's got as many problems as these version seem to have, I'll be passing on the Hornby one. 

Of course there is the possibility that it prove OK - but I'll have missed out by the time we know.

Still currently available to order on the Hornby website. If It's not up to scratch or not what you want, return it.

A win win situation!

 

Edited April 28 by Black 5 Bear

[Black 5 Bear]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Bachmann also have relatively recent research for their 2 mm model as well of course. And the 8F ……. 

Unfortunately Mike, I can't see that happening any time soon, that is unless they've been working on it for some time.

It may well be that the Hornby BR versions - Glasgow Highlander, the Caprotti and the S+S versions will be better finished.

The irony is that the new close coupling function doesn't improve the loco to tender gap, when you actually compare it with the outgoing model.

I think many people will now bemoan the passing of the devils plug! 

[Johan DC]

It seems to me that this new type of plug is better working, and closer coupling, on the previous locos like P2’s and A1’s. I have four of these, and not a single issue. And the gap between tender and engine looks smaller too. So it’s really a step back. 

[Ian Hargrave]

13 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Bachmann also have relatively recent research for their 2 mm model as well of course. And the 8F ……. 

They also have similar clip together fitting on their new V2 in OO.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

It seems to me that this new type of plug is better working, and closer coupling, on the previous locos like P2’s and A1’s. I have four of these, and not a single issue. And the gap between tender and engine looks smaller too. So it’s really a step back. 

I think you mean A4 ? But yes,I agree with that.

[Ian Hargrave]

10 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Still currently available to order on the Hornby website. If It's not up to scratch or not what you want, return it.

A win win situation!

 

As it’s the only one currently on the market and I saw a sample on Saturday which does capture the essence of the prototype,my order will stand.I’ll take the risk and possible hit with the lamps and clip connector.

[Johan DC]

25 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

I think you mean A4 ? But yes,I agree with that.

No, the recent Hermit and the Dublo FS have these new type of couplings too. I have a CoA too, but it won’t come home soon, it’ll be professionally weathered by Neville Grove together with the whole Coronation rake. 

[Sjcm]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

It seems to me that this new type of plug is better working, and closer coupling, on the previous locos like P2’s and A1’s. I have four of these, and not a single issue. And the gap between tender and engine looks smaller too. So it’s really a step back. 

Yep, the problem is no-one knows exactly what the problem is. Is it a mechanical problem where the tender connectors on this batch are not making proper contact when they click in. Is is an electrical problem somewhere in the loco or tender (faulty/corroded contacts). On the one hand Sam's trains got his working with contact cleaner which hints at electrical problems. On the other hand that didn't work with first one. Maybe it's a combination of both and the main difference between the P2 and the black 5 is QC or cost cutting.

[Black 5 Bear]

57 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

As it’s the only one currently on the market and I saw a sample on Saturday which does capture the essence of the prototype,my order will stand.I’ll take the risk and possible hit with the lamps and clip connector.

Thanks for the update Ian,my sentiments entirely!

I trust you're judgement and like yourself, will be keeping my pre-orders.

 

Edited April 29 by Black 5 Bear

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

They also have similar clip together fitting on their new V2 in OO.

IMHO, the Bachmann close coupling clip is far superior to that of the Hornby offering and certainly more robust.