Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[ColinB]

37 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

If I were you, I'd ask Simon Kohler about that. That would be news to him, I'm led to believe....

I have been watching his reviews for many years, he has never had a loco given to him by Hornby, now if it was Jenny Kirk, then that is a different story. He has been given models by Rails, Hattons and several other small companies, he always states this and although he does a sort of review he never rates them , as he says it would be unfair. He just recently did a review of a Hornby Q1, a really old model of Hornby, which he gave a glowing review, so how is that biased.  He has done it with many of Hornby's old models, probably because he doesn't have to pay £200 to do a video and I suspect his YouTube budget is limited. Sam is like me, he wants value for money. If a loco costs over £200 he expects it to be special, especially compared to those manufacturers that charge considerably less. Sometimes Hornby and Bachmann meet that criteria, sometimes they don't, so he points it out. As to traction tyres I hate the things, they compromise conductivity with the rails and have built in obsolescence because rubber rots with age. 

[adb968008]

16 minutes ago, ColinB said:

As to traction tyres I hate the things, they compromise conductivity with the rails and have built in obsolescence because rubber rots with age. 

Everything rots with age… the motor wears out, parts become brittle, mazak can rot, gear teeth wear out… thats not really an excuse.

[Sjcm]

He doesn't help himself with some of his fixations and his carpet layout, but some of his gripes about no proper bearings, flimsy parts, design faults, wheels out of scale, and glue all over the place in 200+ pound models seems perfectly realistic to me. End of the day no-one forced Hornby to go up-market and start charging 100+ pounds above inflation compared to the 2000's equivalent models. You can make an argument that the better detailing and mechanism is worth that price increase, but as fair as the quality and general robustness goes Hornby (and others) just don't get it. If I buy a premium product whether that's a top of the range phone or a tv, I expect it to work, be in mint condition when it arrives and the quality of it ensuring it has a long life. If I buy a cheapo smartphone I'll probably overlook the general cheapness and a scratch on the screen

[ColinB]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Everything rots with age… the motor wears out, parts become brittle, mazak can rot, gear teeth wear out… thats not really an excuse.

I think you will find that rubber will rot much quicker than anything else. It either rots or goes hard. Mazak rot is not age related it is more to do with the wrong chemical balance of the materials when it was make. I have ringfield motors ranging back to the 1980s, motors gears are perfect but on every one I have had to replace the traction tyres. Go look at your car tyres when they are over 10 years old, generally they wear out before they degrade but if you have a classic vehicle, it is one of the big issues.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

24 minutes ago, ColinB said:

As to traction tyres I hate the things, they compromise conductivity with the rails

That's the biggest strike against traction tyres, for all of us 'power via the rails' operators: it is desireable that all the powered wheels should be available for current collection, as they are the most effective for this purpose. 

2 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I think you will find that rubber will rot much quicker than anything else. It either rots or goes hard

However, the materials choices long available include much superior options; thus my over fifty year old Rivarossi model with original translucent traction tyres, (which I only spotted after near three decades of ownership!) still as good as ever. And Hornby now own Rivarossi, so they have that 'better shot in the locker'!

 

Had Hornby or Lima offered such a high grade traction tyre to the UK market forty-some years ago, instead of their death spiral contest for the cheapest and nastiest mechanism they could foist on RTR OO, we might be having a different conversation now.

 

Personally I am very happy with loco drive and weight on metal wheels for traction. That Spaceship on a heavy drag makes noise on the track discernably different from the little Humpy shunting a single wagon in the yard, just the way the real locos did...

[adb968008]

25 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I think you will find that rubber will rot much quicker than anything else. It either rots or goes hard. Mazak rot is not age related it is more to do with the wrong chemical balance of the materials when it was make. I have ringfield motors ranging back to the 1980s, motors gears are perfect but on every one I have had to replace the traction tyres. Go look at your car tyres when they are over 10 years old, generally they wear out before they degrade but if you have a classic vehicle, it is one of the big issues.

I have hundreds of locos..

My european ones are fine… some are 40 years old. Sure some wear out, none are irreplaceable.

 

I assume your ringfield motors have never needed a carbon brush replacing ? 100 hours, built in obsolescence.

 

Dont judge the tech by British technology of the 1970’s, but equally theres no reason why tech can’t go on adfinitum with spares.

 

I suspect my KRModels fell will fall by the wayside before my Lima locos do… but I equally think my Roco/Trix/Sudexpress /Piko 21st century locos will outlive nearly everything OO made this century… its not just tyres, its the whole engineering quality… engineered right, inc, dodgy pickups is not an issue with traction tyres, because things like weight, balance and suspension are engineered into the design…. There really isnt many complaints about Hornbys class 50… yet for the first decade it too had tyres, until it was recognised it was so heavy it didnt need them.

 

 

Edited April 26 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Fireline said:

 

They are glued in, but using a very light glue, so they are easy to remove. This was apparently done to stop them detaching while they were in transit from the Far East.

 

OK if they use something like Tacky Wax, but wouldn't it be simpler just to put them in the accessory pack for the retailer or purchaser to insert?

 

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

OK if they use something like Tacky Wax, but wouldn't it be simpler just to put them in the accessory pack for the retailer or purchaser to insert?

 

They probably figured that strategy would result in  too many support calls/emails.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I have hundreds of locos..

My european ones are fine… some are 40 years old. Sure some wear out, none are irreplaceable.

 

I assume your ringfield motors have never needed a carbon brush replacing ? 100 hours, built in obsolescence.

 

Dont judge the tech by British technology of the 1970’s, but equally theres no reason why tech can’t go on adfinitum with spares.

 

I suspect my KRModels fell will fall by the wayside before my Lima locos do… but I equally think my Roco/Trix/Sudexpress /Piko 21st century locos will outlive nearly everything OO made this century… its not just tyres, its the whole engineering quality… engineered right, inc, dodgy pickups is not an issue with traction tyres, because things like weight, balance and suspension are engineered into the design…. There really isnt many complaints about Hornbys class 50… yet for the first decade it too had tyres, until it was recognised it was so heavy it didnt need them.

 

 

That still doesn't remove the issue that you cannot pickup current from those wheels. As for the rubber well you have your opinion, I have mine. You cannot get rid of the fact, rubber is an incredibly good insulator, design isn't going to get rid of that. Those wheel will only pick up current on the flanges.

[maico]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

I think you will find that rubber will rot much quicker than anything else. It either rots or goes hard. Mazak rot is not age related it is more to do with the wrong chemical balance of the materials when it was make. I have ringfield motors ranging back to the 1980s, motors gears are perfect but on every one I have had to replace the traction tyres. Go look at your car tyres when they are over 10 years old, generally they wear out before they degrade but if you have a classic vehicle, it is one of the big issues.

 

I've found the Marklin-Trix traction tyres last many years and are available in various sizes to fit most wheels.

 

The scrap man came and towed away my old Peugeot 406 V6 coupe recently which was made in the Pininfarina S.p.A factory in 1999 with components supplied by various manufacturers.

I know the cars history from new and do my own wrenching. Not a single rubber part ever needed replacing. The window rubbers, CV gaiters, water and fuel lines were all original. So was the Michelin full size spare. Not being exposed to UV and water it was still soft. 

 

I think the plastic bumpers became more brittle with age and cracked easily and the leather seat piping was made of PVC. A poor choice of material by Recaro.

 

Synthetic rubber blends can last a very long time.

 

Edited April 26 by maico

[Roy L S]

21 minutes ago, ColinB said:

That still doesn't remove the issue that you cannot pickup current from those wheels. As for the rubber well you have your opinion, I have mine. You cannot get rid of the fact, rubber is an incredibly good insulator, design isn't going to get rid of that. Those wheel will only pick up current on the flanges.

The thing is that if using traction tyres a good designer will position them so as to not impact on the pickup footprint of a locomotive, so a loco with four/six tender wheels picking up together with the front four of a typical six wheel/three axle coupled wheelbase will still have a decent length pickup footprint barely compromised by a set of tyres on the rearmost coupled axle. Also as you say, it isn't just the treads of a wheel that pickup power, the flanges will also do so when in contact with the rails and this will still be the case with a tyred wheelset.

 

Longevity of tyres will depend on two things primarily, first the material used, rubber may last considerably less time than say something synthetic like neoprene, but also chemicals used in track cleaning (even residues) can be quite caustic have a significant degrading effect which is why I never use any (just a rubber).

 

What I would say though is the need for tyres increases with the reduction in volume for tractive weight and this is typically more the case in smaller scales, so in N (which I primarily model) for many steam locos in particular they may be necessary, for locos OO if well designed, having greater volume for weight available in footplate/loco body/chassis arguably less so.  

 

Roy

[Wheatley]

5 hours ago, Fireline said:

 

They are glued in, but using a very light glue, so they are easy to remove. This was apparently done to stop them detaching while they were in transit from the Far East.

 

5 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Not according to Sam.

Bernard

 

He could always soak it in the bath to see if that weakens the glue.  

[melmerby]

39 minutes ago, ColinB said:

rubber is an incredibly good insulator

 

It can also be made to conduct electricity with suitable additives

[ColinB]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

It can also be made to conduct electricity with suitable additives

Yes I know that, but most traction aren't. I would imagine adding those additives would probably compromise the traction ability, but sure you can do anything if you try. We are talking model railways made to a cost.

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I would imagine adding those additives would probably compromise the traction ability

Car tyres conduct electricity but the electrical resistance is still on the high side.

They have carbon compounds in the rubber mix.

Edited April 26 by melmerby

[franciswilliamwebb]

55 minutes ago, ColinB said:

That still doesn't remove the issue that you cannot pickup current from those wheels. As for the rubber well you have your opinion, I have mine. You cannot get rid of the fact, rubber is an incredibly good insulator, design isn't going to get rid of that. Those wheel will only pick up current on the flanges.

Quite. The day I get rubber tyres on my trains will be the day I get rubber wallpaper😉

[MikeParkin65]

52 minutes ago, maico said:

 

I've found the Marklin-Trix traction tyres last many years and are available in various sizes to fit most wheels.

 

The scrap man came and towed away my old Peugeot 406 V6 coupe recently which was made in the Pininfarina S.p.A factory in 1999 with components supplied by various manufacturers.

I know the cars history from new and do my own wrenching. Not a single rubber part ever needed replacing. The window rubbers, CV gaiters, water and fuel lines were all original. So was the Michelin full size spare. Not being exposed to UV and water it was still soft. 

 

I think the plastic bumpers became more brittle with age and cracked easily and the leather seat piping was made of PVC. A poor choice of material by Recaro.

 

Synthetic rubber blends can last a very long time.

 

You surely haven't let that beauty got for scrap have you? 🤯

[maico]

I use Trix C-track which has live frogs which change polarity depending on how they are switched. Pick-up is not a problem with anything I have be it DJH kit standard class 4 , Ho Trix, Brawa, Roco ,Piko, Hornby, or Bachmann Liliput.

 

With pick-ups on front and rear bogies, tender and all but one driven axle with traction tyres, juice is not a problem with these Trix steamers!

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by maico

[zr2498]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Everything rots with age… the motor wears out, parts become brittle, mazak can rot, gear teeth wear out… thats not really an excuse.

I know. I get a lot more backache nowadays!

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, maico said:

 

I've found the Marklin-Trix traction tyres last many years and are available in various sizes to fit most wheels.

 

The scrap man came and towed away my old Peugeot 406 V6 coupe recently which was made in the Pininfarina S.p.A factory in 1999 with components supplied by various manufacturers.

I know the cars history from new and do my own wrenching. Not a single rubber part ever needed replacing. The window rubbers, CV gaiters, water and fuel lines were all original. So was the Michelin full size spare. Not being exposed to UV and water it was still soft. 

 

I think the plastic bumpers became more brittle with age and cracked easily and the leather seat piping was made of PVC. A poor choice of material by Recaro.

 

Synthetic rubber blends can last a very long time.

 

Car tyres when they age go hard so you will find your braking distance increases substantially. Generally that is the main reason for changing them. On a motorcycle it is even more critical.

[zr2498]

Having just watched this video:

 

 

The risk of getting a dud seems much too high. If not initially, then could be soon after purchase.

Couple that with all of the other issues notes in this thread. Time to cancel the 2 preorders I have.

Perhaps, the returns and feedback will prompt some design changes, and only then, (perhaps) I would order future models.

 

[maico]

13 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Car tyres when they age go hard so you will find your braking distance increases substantially. Generally that is the main reason for changing them. On a motorcycle it is even more critical.

 

It's also a MOT failure, they do look at the date codes if the tyre looks suspect.

 

Road salt corrodes everything on a car. I try and hose the underneath down in the winter if the gritters are out!

Edited April 26 by maico

[Peter Kazmierczak]

When I was a nipper, my old (Tri-ang?) push-and-go vehicles had a flywheel...

[toby_tl10]

I see many people using Sam's video as reference when talking about the lamps. I know some of you see Sam'sTrains as the Bible while some see him no more credible than GB News, alas, I don't care. Mind looking a bit further at Class47Peter's video?

 

 

To me, the graphical way he ripped the lamps shows how ridiculous the lamps are, and to an extent how ridiculous the model is, more so than Sam running it with an LNER tender. Of course, his model his choice. I'm not in any way trying to criticise Class47Peter's way of handling his Black 5.

Edited April 26 by toby_tl10
video as attachment

[maico]

13 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

Having just watched this video:

 

 

The risk of getting a dud seems much too high. If not initially, then could be soon after purchase.

Couple that with all of the other issues notes in this thread. Time to cancel the 2 preorders I have.

Perhaps, the returns and feedback will prompt some design changes, and only then, (perhaps) I would order future models.

 

 

That tender connector looks fragile. Does the Dapol version work ok with use?

 

I've got a Trix DMU with plug in connectors but I'm not sure the company has faith in plugs. All of my Trix tender locos are hard wired into the tender. There is no easy way to separate them.

 

Here is the electrical connection on an older Bachmann Lilliput BR05 I used to own. A sliding brass track system with kinematic connector.....