Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

Ordinarily a manufacturer should have a good awareness of delivered quality from warranty return figures, however in the case of Hornby model trains that figure may be seriously distorted by a the amount of models sold to collectors who don't run models or even modellers with plans for a layout some day. Have a look on well known auction sites for the number of locomotives for sale in mint boxed unused condition.

Absolutely, I buy the majority of my stock used, more via FB than eBay these days, but anyway it's clear from the lack of wheel tread wear that the majority has had little to no use, which I believe dies distort the return figures (not just a Hornby thing) 

[Flying Pig]

I thought Sam's second review gave useful insight into the headlamps, particularly how easy they are to change.  One of his blanking lamp irons wouldn't come out at all; one came out easily; the bottom centre lamp came out, but residual glue prevented it or a blanking piece being fitted (cleaning up by the buyer would no doubt fix this easily); the smokebox lamp came out but the blanking lamp iron does not fully block the light feed; one of the additional lamps supplied was incomplete and couldn't be attached.

 

Not a fully developed system, I feel.

[smr248]

You could use debonder.  Then again the whole thing might fall apart...

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Surely an EP model would have been on / off that Hornby test track, connected and disconnected enough times to test that and ID it as a weakness ?

 

some EPs ive seen have been through a hedge backwards, but thats part of the life of an EP is to find these things.

 

 

 

Not necessarily, I worked in development and there comes a point where you are about to release, so some people (not me) just hope it will be alright. With Hornby it is even worse, from what I gather they have a defined manufacturing slot which they can't control. A lot of people are optimists, managers like them, I have learnt from bitter experience, if it can go wrong it will do. The thing that is interesting this connector has had issues in the past with P2 and the A4s but not as badly as it appears with the Black 5, so what did they change?

[Ian Hargrave]

There is the distinct possibility of a breakage when removing a lamp for replacement/moving however skilled or delicate you may be. Then there is the problem of light bleed afterwards. Why on earth put the purchasing enthusiast to this bother when he/she has been encouraged to buy a premium model ?  Yet this is the risk we must undertake….so I was informed by the Hornby rep……if we so choose. In any case these working lights are prototypically too  bright and intrusive. Caveat emptor.

[GrumpyPenguin]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

From a customer perspective UK law making the retailer responsible is excellent, it makes life much simpler and living in a country where warranty responsibility is with the manufacturer or local distributor (as applicable) I'd not recommend going that way.

The operative word in my post was "shared", therfore the customer would have the choice - deal with the retailer or the manufacrurer/distributor/importer.

Retailers (the local model shop size) have a diffecult enough time making a living asa it is without having a considerable amount of funds tied up with dead stock (i.e. defective stock that they have paid for shunting back & forth between them & their supplier).

It would be easy to set up (certainly for all of us here) ;

1) You have a faulty product.

2) You log on to the manufactures/distributor/importers webstore & obtain a returns/tracking/pre-paid label.

3) Pack & post it back to them.

4) Await your repaired/replace item.

 

Or you could go through the retailer.

If customers had a choice & went direct then I the quality control aspect would improve greatly.

[zr2498]

Surely faulty products, if sent to the retailer, are then sent on to the manufacturer unless to is a very easy repair. But then, if repaired it is not 'new', and the retailer would lose out.

I seem to recall Accurascale have sometimes encouraged bypassing the retailer on returns (as long as they are informed).

[spamcan61]

30 minutes ago, ColinB said:

A lot of people are optimists, managers like them, I have learnt from bitter experience, if it can go wrong it will do. 

Yup, got the T shirt and matching baseball cap on that one, dealing with those who think a project can be successfully executed by the power of positive thinking alone. <sigh> With the added 'fun' of the problem often being 10 time zones and several thousand miles away! Returning somewhat to topic, for sure there will be a point at which the design will have been frozen, presumably based on a very limited test of samples which won't be exactly production standard, so no great shock it goes wrong now and again, seemingly for some manufacturers more than others.

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

That would be the ideal scenario.However,as I have already posted elsewhere,my conversation with Hornby at the NEC yesterday leads me to believe that they appear to be in the hands of their factory…at least as far as the stuck on lights are concerned.So I’m not holding my breath as far as my pre ordered Caprotti is concerned. 
 

I saw it run yesterday and for me personally it fails as the “Ultimate Black 5” on the counts of both those silly fixed lights and the yawning gap between loco and tender 

Ian, if my pre-orders are not up to scratch, they'll be going back end of.

Purchasers need to send manufacturers a clear message and return expensive models, which are substandard or don't hit the mark!

 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Ian, if my pre-orders are not up to scratch, they'll be going back end of.

Purchasers need to send manufacturers a clear message and return expensive models, which are substandard or don't hit the mark!

 

Which would be a great shame. The Caprotti was on display yesterday and looked very promising I have to say.

[jjb1970]

13 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

The operative word in my post was "shared", therfore the customer would have the choice - deal with the retailer or the manufacrurer/distributor/importer.

Retailers (the local model shop size) have a diffecult enough time making a living asa it is without having a considerable amount of funds tied up with dead stock (i.e. defective stock that they have paid for shunting back & forth between them & their supplier).

It would be easy to set up (certainly for all of us here) ;

1) You have a faulty product.

2) You log on to the manufactures/distributor/importers webstore & obtain a returns/tracking/pre-paid label.

3) Pack & post it back to them.

4) Await your repaired/replace item.

 

Or you could go through the retailer.

If customers had a choice & went direct then I the quality control aspect would improve greatly.

 

Shared legal responsibility is a recipe for confusion, buck passing and legal wriggle room. There's nothing preventing a manufacturer offering a warranty and return to base service, and many do, but ultimately UK consumer law puts responsibility with the seller. That is clear and unambiguous. The seller will have their own relationship with the distributor/manufacturer.

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, Sjcm said:

Apart from the colour, they remind me of the contacts you used to get on 90's game console cartridges which could oxidise and stop working over time. of course if they are the same, then the presumably hidden smaller traces that join up to the visible contact bars could be the real problem  as you can't reach them to clean them.

Ifg it's a case that the contact makes mechanically but not electrically then a "hint" of Track Magic may just do the trick. AFAIK it's a product based on an aerospace product.

[spamcan61]

24 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Ifg it's a case that the contact makes mechanically but not electrically then a "hint" of Track Magic may just do the trick. AFAIK it's a product based on an aerospace product.

Are the contacts spring loaded I wonder? If not I can't see how this will ever work reliably.

[G-BOAF]

I really don't see what was wrong with the previous small electronics plug and wire between loco and tender. Could be tucked up neatly and ended up looking like hoses anyway. It also enables prototypical drawbar size and location (the best I've seen this done is on the 7mt and 9F. The only problem is if you need to separate loco and tender and are cack-handed enough to damage the pins/dislocate the wires. Then again I've performed this operation tens of times and never had a problem - using the Hornby tool, sometimes a screwdriver to lever a bit more, and a lot of care. But this should really be a rare event.

[MikeParkin65]

8 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I really don't see what was wrong with the previous small electronics plug and wire between loco and tender. Could be tucked up neatly and ended up looking like hoses anyway. It also enables prototypical drawbar size and location (the best I've seen this done is on the 7mt and 9F. The only problem is if you need to separate loco and tender and are cack-handed enough to damage the pins/dislocate the wires. Then again I've performed this operation tens of times and never had a problem - using the Hornby tool, sometimes a screwdriver to lever a bit more, and a lot of care. But this should really be a rare event.

Agree entirely. The only thing that could be improved is perhaps the plug and socket they used. Appreciate these will be the cheapest solution but something like the plugs DCC Concepts sell would is more robust and easier to use in my experience.  That said i dont pack my models away on a regular basis so several are now hard wired together anyway.  

[daltonparva]

I haven't seen one of the new connectors in the flesh yet but I presume one problem is that the new connectors are probably making 8 contacts as opposed to the old plug and socket only making 4. The plug/socket needed to transfer 2 power and 2 motor contacts, the new gizmo has to do the same plus the directional lights and the firebox glow.

[phil-b259]

On 26/04/2024 at 11:21, adb968008 said:

Everything rots with age… the motor wears out, parts become brittle, mazak can rot, gear teeth wear out… thats not really an excuse.

Mazak only becomes brittle if it’s contaminated during manufacture! If made properly Mazak will never become brittle or crumble.

 

As regards motors and gears - a lot depends on the amount of use they get - and will typically last several decades with normal use, particularly if the motors don’t have brushes to wear down and the gears are metal.

 

Traction types on the other hand are very much a short term consumerable item in the way the other things you mention are not - and just as with car tyres their life is not just connected to usage!
 

Go look at a car which has been parked up for ages and even though technically the tread may be fine, sitting still with all the loading on one spot decades the tyre structure and it doesn’t take long before you need new ones even though the vehicle hasn’t moved an inch.

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Mazak only becomes brittle if it’s contaminated during manufacture! If made properly Mazak will never become brittle or crumble.

 

As regards motors and gears - a lot depends on the amount of use they get - and will typically last several decades with normal use, particularly if the motors don’t have brushes to wear down and the gears are metal.

 

Traction types on the other hand are very much a short term consumerable item in the way the other things you mention are not - and just as with car tyres their life is not just connected to usage!
 

Go look at a car which has been parked up for ages and even though technically the tread may be fine, sitting still with all the loading on one spot decades the tyre structure and it doesn’t take long before you need new ones even though the vehicle hasn’t moved an inch.

 

 

 

 

I still have approx 50 Lima locos hanging around, they are all still on original tyres, and all still work, though need a nudge sometimes because the brushes stick with none use.

 

The youngest is at least 30 years at this point.

And those tyres go back to the days of cheap elastic band types, not the refined ones used in Europe.

 

I dont think I can complain.

 

The most troublesome part of a Lima loco is the buffers actually.. they seem to evaporate with age.

Everyones experience is unique, but judging today based on 1980 is flawed, at a minimum compare it to those countries using them today… and theres not forum fulls of complaints in HO about them.

A lot of my locos spend long periods out of use, and one thing I can say, is the wheels on my stock has never gone egg shaped from standing still…I think your stretching it a bit with that one.

😀

Edited April 28 by adb968008

[GrumpyPenguin]

53 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

I haven't seen one of the new connectors in the flesh yet but I presume one problem is that the new connectors are probably making 8 contacts as opposed to the old plug and socket only making 4. The plug/socket needed to transfer 2 power and 2 motor contacts, the new gizmo has to do the same plus the directional lights and the firebox glow.

Absolutly no excuse for substandard couplings/connectors or close coupling (apart from maybe the "Thanet Disease").

Image shows how it can be done - close coupled & 8-pole.

[zr2498]

1 minute ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Absolutly no excuse for substandard couplings/connectors or close coupling (apart from maybe the "Thanet Disease").

Image shows how it can be done - close coupled & 8-pole.

Looks a much better design, except for loco / tender there is not gap adjustment. Personally I would prefer two 4 pin JST style plug sockets either side of an adjustable draw bar. The 4 wires to each keeps the stiffness reduced rather than an 8 pin assembly.

Not sure why Hornby need the 8 pins as the firebox glow is on constant and fed from the loco pick ups I assume. However 8 pin would be better for those that want to have DCC control of firebox glow

[Butler Henderson]

True, but that costs a lot more than the red box lot are plainly prepared to pay for = loss of profits

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

From a customer perspective UK law making the retailer responsible is excellent, it makes life much simpler and living in a country where warranty responsibility is with the manufacturer or local distributor (as applicable) I'd not recommend going that way.

A lot of UK companies encourage you to contact them directly, where invariably I have had excellent service.

One such company is VAX who have a 6 year no quibble warranty. They have been a dream to deal with.

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Shared legal responsibility is a recipe for confusion, buck passing and legal wriggle room. 

Viz. buying a new car from a dealer. Has anyone ever managed to get a full refund or exchange on a substandard new car without being passed back and forth between dealer and manufacturer ? I expect the answer is 'yes' but not very often and  not without an awful lot of effort. 

 

1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

I really don't see what was wrong with the previous small electronics plug and wire between loco and tender. ... The only problem is if you need to separate loco and tender and are cack-handed enough to damage the pins/dislocate the wires. 

Agreed about the neatness of that arrangement, but I wonder how many returns which did get as far as Hornby had the plug still firmly attached to the tender but not to the wires ? If you aren't familiar with sub-miniature electronics connectors it's not obvious how to get them apart without causing damage. 

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Viz. buying a new car from a dealer. Has anyone ever managed to get a full refund or exchange on a substandard new car without being passed back and forth between dealer and manufacturer ? I expect the answer is 'yes' but not very often and  not without an awful lot of effort. 

 

You need to catch somone at the dealing taking a whizz on your car, put it on social media and then the manufacturer will replace the car with great haste.

[adb968008]

U have to wonder why models arent using usb-c connectors…

 

its an industry standard, cheap as cheaps, easily understood and of course an EU standard.

 

its not charging anything but its still more pins than a model will need and robust and smaller than the current solution too.

Edited April 28 by adb968008