Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[Drifter]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

The Tier system:

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/Hornby-introduces-retailer-tier-system.

 

I'm puzzled as to how Swindon Museum  qualified as the lowest   a Tier 3 operation,  from reading the link, surely a Tier 2?

 

You are trying to apply logic to the Tier System. There is no logic from what l can see. It’s totally random.

[McC]

12 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

I don't think that will be the case personally because being aware of a 'new kid on the block' is not the same as actually being able to buy their products at a point in time - they all involve both pre-ordering and being around at the right time for when a particular model. But hey, that's just my opinion, time will tell. 

To be fair, and accurate, preorders are the norm now from all, not just the new kids. Equally accurascale have 130 retailers around the UK (and further) where you can walk into a shop and buy a product. Our latest ranges are in stock now and many items are available from both our retail partners and our own website. 

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, Drifter said:

You are trying to apply logic to the Tier System. There is no logic from what l can see. It’s totally random.

It's, at least to some extent, about Hornby favouring those retailers they consider least likely to develop into competitors IMHO.

 

As a purely practical approach that may seem logical. However, the flip-side is that those most likely to be identified as potential threats get less Hornby product to sell and they need to find something else to fill the gap in their turnover....

 

One proven solution is doing exactly what Hornby doesn't want them to, by increasing sales of other brands (old and new) and/or developing/commissioning product in their own name. There's no shortage of suitable Chinese factories looking for trade and some seem to be getting quite knowledgeable about British railway subjects.

 

It wouldn't have been the original intention, but the Tier system is tending to promote exactly what Hornby evidently wanted to prevent.  It'll be interesting to see how it ends if Hornby persist with it....

 

The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again!

 

John

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

I hope that the tier system does end as one of the consequences is that it makes it very difficult for the customer to obtain what he or she wants when Hornby produces an item.

 

As an example the 4 wheel LSWR coaches were 'must have' items for me as I am modelling the Swanage Railway. Logically the best way to obtain these when they appeared was to order them by post from Hornby at the retail price. The problems of doing this are that Hornby will send them by a courier and there has been a problem in Swanage over the past few days where a well known courier has dumped parcels all over the town and social media is very active trying to reunite the recipients with their parcels.  Then there is the problem of returning damaged items to Hornby and wondering if Hornby has sufficient stock to replace them.  The other point is as a matter of principle I do not want to deal directly with a company that treats its retailers badly.

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

To obtain the LSWR coaches I pre-ordered them from Hattons thinking they would have the largest supply from Hornby.  After I found out that Hattons were in tier 3 and were unlikely to have any if there was a supply shortage I cancelled my order. I explained why when Hattons asked me.

 

My local shop on the Swanage Railway is in tier 2 so I was not confident in ordering from them.

 

I understand that Kernow is in tier 1 so I ordered from them and 2 coaches came by Royal Mail in February with a note saying the others would follow. They had not appeared by June although they had just appeared on Hornby's website. I rang up Kernow. They said that when they said the other coaches would follow they debited my card because they were expecting them in the next few days but Hornby were now telling them that the rest of the coaches would not be available until December. Kernow agreed to cancel my order for the lit coaches and send me some unlit coaches that they had in stock.

 

Now, in April 2022, the Swanage Railway shop has the LSWR coaches on display so it looks like Hornby have produced enough of these coaches to satisfy demand. 

 

It has been suggested that I am looking at the 1960s with rose tinted glasses but it was nice to be able to walk into my local model shop and buy a model as soon as it was advertised in the Meccano Magazine.

[Legend]

37 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's, at least to some extent, about Hornby favouring those retailers they consider least likely to develop into competitors IMHO.

 

As a purely practical approach that may seem logical. However, the flip-side is that those most likely to be identified as potential threats get less Hornby product to sell and they need to find something else to fill the gap in their turnover....

 

One proven solution is doing exactly what Hornby doesn't want them to, by increasing sales of other brands (old and new) and/or developing/commissioning product in their own name. There's no shortage of suitable Chinese factories looking for trade and some seem to be getting quite knowledgeable about British railway subjects.

 

It wouldn't have been the original intention, but the Tier system is tending to promote exactly what Hornby evidently wanted to prevent.  It'll be interesting to see how it ends if Hornby persist with it....

 

The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again!

 

John

 

 

You mean someone didnt quite think that one through .   From the company that brought you "Titgate" and now at short notice is sporadically removing Humbrol enamels from sale (not everyone knows why apparently) . Who could  believe that !

 

[Mike_Walker]

I was talking to the owner of my LMS yesterday and he said that they'd been told the Tier system was being abandoned for all but the biggest box-shifters as it had been found to be unworkable.  Apparently they had been in Tier 2 despite, on paper, ticking all the boxes for Tier 1 but now had been told that they weren't in any tier and since all the reps had gone etc. everything was changing.

 

Oh, and he'd not heard of the Humbrol business...

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

now had been told that they weren't in any tier

 

Sounds worse than being in Tier 3. The Lost Souls tier 

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting debate which is very much turning into a conversation about 'brand awareness' to use marketing-speak.   In my experience, including examples from what I have seen in my most local model railway selling establishment and from someone I know who entered into model railways in his retirement after no previous involvement at all, people but especially those of more mature years 'know' that Hornby means model trains.  So they invariably ask for Hornby or 'a Hornby set' or 'what Hornby locos have you got?' and so on.  Yes the more informed modeller who reads the magazines or wanders round the internet will be aware of other brands even if it is just as a result of seeing their adverts in a mag =ora brief mention on a web page.

 

 Yes, those of us modelling a specific part of the country, or company, or BR Region, will know that there are other manufacturers because we happen to want GWR locos, or SR coaches, or something from former NER territory,  and so on.  But that is not how many people come to the hobby - they come in wanting 'a model train' and in many cases wouldn't know a Q6 from a 'King' although one is green so might be more attrractive and comes with coaches not wagons.

 

And there are various generations in Britain who think Hornby is model trains and model trains must mean Hornby.  And some of them still think that it really means Hornby-Dublo and that it is made in England because they've had no involvement with model railways for many decades.  That awareness is something Hornby play on in their advertising and exploit massively in promoting their company image and they put a significant cash value on the name as in some respects that is far more important than the products which carry that name.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

Sounds worse than being in Tier 3. The Lost Souls tier 

Positively tier-jerking. 

[Mike_Walker]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

Sounds worse than being in Tier 3. The Lost Souls tier 

I must admit that thought occurred to me too...

[Phil Parker]

31 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

It has been suggested that I am looking at the 1960s with rose tinted glasses but it was nice to be able to walk into my local model shop and buy a model as soon as it was advertised in the Meccano Magazine.

 

It was, but then in the 1980s, modellers decided that mail-order was cheaper than the local shop and took their big-ticket purchases in that direction, killing off many of those local shops.

[Oldddudders]

In the '60s, discounts were hardly available, so the LMS was just as attractive a sales outlet as any mail-order firm, and bore no postage costs. In later decades discounting of prices, based upon mass purchases by the seller, unbalanced things, and mail order warehouses turned the market upside down, as they did in many other retail fields. The Internet has accelerated that.

[RedgateModels]

10 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It was, but then in the 1980s, modellers decided that mail-order was cheaper than the local shop and took their big-ticket purchases in that direction, killing off many of those local shops.

 

 

Not me, my APT came from Santa 😂

 

although he may have delegated it to either Skills or Gee Dees, I have no way of knowing 😉

[SamThomas]

38 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

You mean someone didnt quite think that one through .   From the company that brought you "Titgate" and now at short notice is sporadically removing Humbrol enamels from sale (not everyone knows why apparently) . Who could  believe that !

 

The reason is well documented in another thread, but basically it appears that there is a tiny, tiny additive in it that is now banned because it's carciogenic.

 

(my advance apologies to anyone who finds an issue with my speeling).

[1E BoY]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting debate which is very much turning into a conversation about 'brand awareness' to use marketing-speak.   In my experience, including examples from what I have seen in my most local model railway selling establishment and from someone I know who entered into model railways in his retirement after no previous involvement at all, people but especially those of more mature years 'know' that Hornby means model trains.  So they invariably ask for Hornby or 'a Hornby set' or 'what Hornby locos have you got?' and so on.  Yes the more informed modeller who reads the magazines or wanders round the internet will be aware of other brands even if it is just as a result of seeing their adverts in a mag =ora brief mention on a web page.

 

 Yes, those of us modelling a specific part of the country, or company, or BR Region, will know that there are other manufacturers because we happen to want GWR locos, or SR coaches, or something from former NER territory,  and so on.  But that is not how many people come to the hobby - they come in wanting 'a model train' and in many cases wouldn't know a Q6 from a 'King' although one is green so might be more attrractive and comes with coaches not wagons.

 

And there are various generations in Britain who think Hornby is model trains and model trains must mean Hornby.  And some of them still think that it really means Hornby-Dublo and that it is made in England because they've had no involvement with model railways for many decades.  That awareness is something Hornby play on in their advertising and exploit massively in promoting their company image and they put a significant cash value on the name as in some respects that is far more important than the products which carry that name.

 

I think part of the problem for "returnees" is that those looking for a return to the hobby as retirement approaches, will naturally go back to their early days in the hobby when nothing was compatable. Hornby Dublo was 3 rail, Tri-ang was two rail and Trix Twin was a mystery to most of us. Couplings were different, track could not be joined together between different manufacturers products.

 

Of course what system you had was very much dependent on what the local shop stocked. I had Tri-ang Ralways with its grey base track because Axfords in Aylesbury Street were a Tri-ang dealer whose toy shop was at the back of the newsagents / sweet shop  etc. The Hornby Dublo stockist was a local chemist and the main toy shop in town (Neals Toys) was also a Tri-ang retailer who also stocked Graham Fairish. 

 

I am sure many manufacturers would love the kind of exposure that Playcraft (Mettoy made in France by Jouef) had in Woolworths, where they were stacked high and sold very cheaply. However, they were definitely toys and of dubious scale and very much epitomised the models with little detail produced to a price which many people consider should be produced today at around a third of the price of its main competitors and yet it had come and gone in less than a decade (1960s).

 

I had never heard of Trix until a new lad arrived a school from South Wales and invited us to see his model railway. It was a whole new experience!

 

Of course today we have a whole range of manufacturers products which are totally compatable (unless you are a Marklin user) where American, British, European, Chinese, Australian etc. all work of the same power supply, where track from all manufacturers can be mixed and where NEM coupling pockets have solved the coupling problems we had in the past.

 

Getting that across to the "returnees" is a challenge for our current manufacturers. As Hornby is the only name many will recognise from their past (albeit as a Meccano brand or post marriage to Tri-ang) it is seen as a safe pair of hands.  Even Bachmann with its 30 + years track record is still seen by some as being a "new kid on the block"!

 

It is getting those who walk in a shop to buy a hoover and walk out with a Dyson (other brands are available) to do likewise when purchasing model railways but that is more difficult than something which is used to clean carpets!

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, 1E BoY said:

I think part of the problem for "returnees" is that those looking for a return to the hobby as retirement approaches, will naturally go back to their early days in the hobby when nothing was compatable. Hornby Dublo was 3 rail, Tri-ang was two rail and Trix Twin was a mystery to most of us.

 

If you are approaching retirement now, you were born in 1960. Trix OO production finished in 1973, Hornby Dublo in 1963. Those returnees are more likely to remember Tri-ang Hornby, and increasingly Lima, Airfix GMR etc.

 

The old days are closer then you realise. Now, where did I park my Ford Sierra, I want to go sna spot those new-fangled Class 58s...

[Robin Brasher]

15 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It was, but then in the 1980s, modellers decided that mail-order was cheaper than the local shop and took their big-ticket purchases in that direction, killing off many of those local shops.

It was well before the 1980s. I started dealing with Hattons in 1965 when I bought six Hornby Dublo Pullmans. I think that they were 15 shillings each when the retail price was 19 shillings and 6 pence.  Generally, after taking the cost of postage into consideration, it was still cheaper to buy coaches and wagons from the local shop and the shops probably made more profit from these than locomotives. I wonder if it was the mail-order shops that killed the local shops.  No local shop owner has talked to me about model railways over a cup of tea and in some shops the service has been diabolical.  I visited part of well known chain of model shops in London at midday and was told to leave the shop because it was closed for lunch.  I came back later to sell some items for a third of the original price, the assistant added them up wrongly. When I queried the price he said that they were not in perfect condition and then he did give me the amount I had expected.  I expect that is one of the reasons that that chain no longer exists while Hattons, that has usually given me excellent service, is thriving. In another shop I went in to look at some items I was interested in for the future when the owner told me to get out if I was not buying anything today.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I visited part of well known chain of model shops in London at midday and was told to leave the shop because it was closed for lunch.  I came back later to sell some items for a third of the original price, the assistant added them up wrongly. When I queried the price he said that they were not in perfect condition and then he did give me the amount I had expected.  I expect that is one of the reasons that that chain no longer exists

 

If you mean Beatties, it was an ill-advised move into video games and high rents that did for them. Based on reading the interweb, I firmly believe that the only consideration for most people is cost. They want service, but aren't willing to pay even a tiny amount for it. I've even seen people boasting on Facebook about asking DCC questions at one shop and then buying from another because the second one was cheaper - because they didn't spend time dealing with free-loading time wasters presumably!

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I wonder if it was the mail-order shops that killed the local shops.

 

No, it was the customers what did it.

 

7 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

No local shop owner has talked to me about model railways over a cup of tea

 

I wonder why?

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If you are approaching retirement now, you were born in 1960. Trix OO production finished in 1973, Hornby Dublo in 1963. Those returnees are more likely to remember Tri-ang Hornby, and increasingly Lima, Airfix GMR etc.

 

The old days are closer then you realise. Now, where did I park my Ford Sierra, I want to go sna spot those new-fangled Class 58s...

Agreed, I'm 70 and fortunate enough to have been retired for a decade. One of my early modelling memories is of learning that HD were discontinuing 3-rail.

 

My first OO set was Tri-ang, with the black-sleepered "Series 3" track. Chosen largely to avoid the electrical complications we had been told came in the box with HD 2-rail points. 

 

Airfix and Mainline stimulated my first tentative "re-entry" in my late twenties. Lima didn't 'cos I wasn't attracted to models of what I could readily go out and see for real. That principle has never changed, though what I can go out and see certainly has! Getting back in properly would have to wait over a decade more...

 

John

Edited April 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 

 

Not me, my APT came from Santa 😂

 

although he may have delegated it to either Skills or Gee Dees, I have no way of knowing 😉

Maybe if we all relied on Santa some more rather than the pesky manufacturers then we wouldn't have so many supply issues.

 

Santa has it all locked down, elves do all the grunt work building the presents and then he works one shift a year delivering all the presents.  Mind you, I do wonder if Santa is not as busy as he used to be and maybe he now has his elves deliverying for Amazon Prime.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I'm impressed with the ease that Hornby manage to find enough bullets to keep shooting themselves in the foot!

 

Mike.

[CUCKOO LINE]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

They want service, but aren't willing to pay even a tiny amount for it. I've even seen people boasting on Facebook about asking DCC questions at one shop and then buying from another because the second one was cheaper - because they didn't spend time dealing with free-loading time wasters presumably!

The sort of people who will then drive elsewhere or pay postage negating the saving no doubt. I remember when I had a vintage car being at a quality  spares supplier someone coming in after a part then not buying and saying xxx had it cheaper he would go there. When he left the supplier just commented so he is going to spend more money on the fuel to get there and get an inferior product as well ! It's not just model railways you get such people.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

The reason is well documented in another thread, but basically it appears that there is a tiny, tiny additive in it that is now banned because it's carciogenic.

 

(my advance apologies to anyone who finds an issue with my speeling).

 

Yes , what I meant though , was that that was known for sometime  , yet some shopowners have only now been advised to remove them from sale , having been sold them from Hornby , and other shopowners have still not been informed .

 

As to the Tier system not being in use anymore , who would be surprised at yet another rethink by management, what will it be next month ?