Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[S.A.C Martin]

The point is Venator, you may not have experienced it, but enough of us did to identify what we felt was wrong, and made our viewpoints clear with reasoned argument, photographic evidence, and enough discussion to identify ways it could be positively improved.

 

I actually feel rather let down by that reported comment, and somewhat resigned to the fact that I've spent an inordinate amount of time, money and effort on a model, made my views clear in the best possible manner, and - yet again - for holding a negative view I am dismissed.

 

I took photographs, took it to bits, tested it beyond reasonable doubt, and because my conclusion is not the same as the party line, it is deemed an irrelevance. At least I know where I stand as a consumer.

[dave flint]

Yes, in fact I'm rather selfishly commenting on here as DC EMU's are of no interest to me at all, nor are AC ones (except in N.....)

 

But I feel Hornby is taking the rise with regard to pricing on many models, especially the Thomas range, and the VEP appears to be another good example of overpriced, poorly done models. As I said, Hornby are now rather odd when models are released. You get the suburban coaches, the L1 steam loco.....and then this VEP pops up.

 

Another manufacturer seems to have no problem in producing better models with substantial drive trains at lower cost.

 

I've grown up with Hornby and don't like to see the direction they now appear to be heading in.

[darren01]

HI All

Totally agree with you on this one, I too do not like the way Hornby are going with their customer base, but it has been on the cards for some time now.

Starting with the outrageous price rise earlier this year and then making the 4 Vep, which in my opinion should have been aimed at the RR, and not sold £160.00 price range.

I remember specking to Mr Kohler some time ago, when I was working on the first James may toy story; this was just after the T9 had come out.

I asked him very politely about the poor haulage of the loco and that a number of web sites had a lot being said about this problem.

The answer I got back was very dismissive and that their was nothing wrong with the T9’s, then a few month later Hornby where tacking them back to be sorted out.

I agree with what Andy y has said about Hornby not wanting to engage with their costumers’, look at Dapol and they way Dave has communicated with use on here about up and coming models, Dapol even asked for help with the class 22 so they would get them spot on.

At the end of the day we are the customers and if Hornby carry on this way I fear they may alienate their core market, us!

I got my first train Hornby train set when I was seven and now at 45 years old , I feel a little bit put off buying any more Hornby stuff .

Sorry this is a bit OT, but I felt I had to replay to some of the things that have been coming up on here.

 

[zarniwhoop]

 

Any chance of a photo of this mod?

http://www.rmweb.co....art-the-fourth/

 

Note particularly my comment at the end - the Replica B4s I'd bought were rejects misassembled in China. I've now got a whole pile of B5 kits, and a couple of bags of Bachmann wheelsets. Progress is stalled because the other DTC is in the paintshop (where muggins here used a too-pale grey for the roof - looked wonderful in daylight, but wrong in direct sun or under the light in my lounge), and because I'm exploring options for couplings / power to the trailers.

 

There was a post by SAC Martin linking to a much-less-brutal mod by Nigel Burkin (? name) earlier in this thread, probably in the last three weeks. Whether that would work on my trainset curves I don't know.

 

ĸen

[pauln]

I think there is a clear distinction here between Hornby's attitude to individual customers and their corporate approach to forums such as this. For example I wrote to Hornby direct re the Class 31 issue and was personally dealt with in an entirely satisfactory manner quite a long time before the offcial remedy, when the official stance was still 'on the fence'. Here, we have seen an individual approach acknowledged by Simon and remedy offered, but the general discussion seems to have been dismissed. Bachmann seem much more collegiate in their approach, whereas as Hornby seem fearful of any corporate admission of failure. I think they are missing a trick, but I would stop short of accusing them of contempt for customers because it is clear that they do enage with (and remedy) individual customer issues. What they don't do is to recognise and treat the (not unimportant) subset of serious modellers as a constituency that merits their own appropriately honest and open approach - and it is something that they are losing out from.

 

I'd agree with this. I took the time to write to Hornby direct as did one or two others. There will always be views on how closely a model depicts the prototype that will most likely never be fully reconciled between supplier and modeller but having written specifically on the mechanical issues I had experienced I can't fault the responses (and there have been 3 or 4 exchanges now) from Hornby and the attempt to provide me with a replacement model that runs better.

 

As somebody who in the past has had to interact with web forums to do with my line of work I have to say it is impossibly difficult to deliver comments and results that meet everybody's aspirations. A 1:1 conversation with Andy would probably work but addressing every comment raised in these 46 pages (and that's just the VEP) is unrealistic.

 

If you have had a real problem with this or any other model I'd recommend approaching the dealer or supplier direct.

[S.A.C Martin]

A very fair point Paul, well made. I feel a little better about my own dealings with Hornby on this one as a result of your very thoughtful post; though I don't think the RMweb discussion of the model (despite being cyclical) was anything other than reasoned, wholesome debate for the most part, and I'd like to think those of us who took the time to make modifications and try new things have actually helped move the thought processes on the model forward.

 

As I said to Simon Kohler in my letter - I would love to buy an improved 4VEP from Hornby, and would do so willingly if certain parts of the model are rectified on future releases.

Edited November 22, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[charliepetty]

Re the Hornby prices, due to no fault of their own the Sandakan factory was taken over by Kader Industries(Bachmann) and as if by a quirk of fate Hornby cost prices went up by 20% approx and Bachmanns did not! Strange that!!!

 

I smell a rat here, and its not a Hornby Rat!

Edited November 23, 2011 by charliepetty

[Legend]

Re the Hornby prices, due to no fault of their own the Sandakan factory was taken over by Kader Industries(Bachmann) and as if by a quirk of fate Hornby cost prices went up by 20% approx and Bachmanns did not! Strange that!!!

 

I smell a rat here, and its not a Hornby Rat!

If I remember correctly Hornby also considered acquiring Sandakan in which case the position may well have been reversed. Whatever, its still no excuse for the contempt in which Hornby management seem to be treating what was their target enthusiast market (it may have reverted to more generalist toys now) and no excuse for incorporating poorly designed low cost engineering (Limby power unit) in a premium priced product.

 

Might I suggest that what you see here is what I suggested in post 1121. Hornby have proved good at sorting out the concerns of an individual modeller (SAC Martin) but have failed to do anything to sort the wider problem. Not even acknowledging there is a problem , dismissing it as a rant by a few people on a forum per Pauls post 1110. Possibly they hope if they turn a deaf ear these pesky enthusiasts will just go away.

[metadyneman]

Well My VEP has finally been consigned to the shelf today.. after a string of faults ever since I bought the damn thing I am fed up with having my running sessions interrupted by niggly stupid faults which are a clear sign of bad assembly. I have had no less than 7 wires come adrift on the unit varying from wires to the power bogie to lighting wires on the overly cumbersome couplings. I've had it with this "pig in a poke" thing and if Hornby withdraw it from their range I can only see it as an improvememt!

[iL Dottore]

Well My VEP has finally been consigned to the shelf today.. after a string of faults ever since I bought the damn thing I am fed up with having my running sessions interrupted by niggly stupid faults which are a clear sign of bad assembly. I have had no less than 7 wires come adrift on the unit varying from wires to the power bogie to lighting wires on the overly cumbersome couplings. I've had it with this "pig in a poke" thing and if Hornby withdraw it from their range I can only see it as an improvememt!

If it is so faulty, why not send it back to the shop you bought it from for a replacement? I had a Hornby 28XX with quite a few problems (possibly damage in transit, although the outside of the model was undamaged), I sent it back and got a replacement that has run beautifully. Simples

[Godfrey Glyn]

Well My VEP has finally been consigned to the shelf today.. after a string of faults ever since I bought the damn thing I am fed up with having my running sessions interrupted by niggly stupid faults which are a clear sign of bad assembly. I have had no less than 7 wires come adrift on the unit varying from wires to the power bogie to lighting wires on the overly cumbersome couplings. I've had it with this "pig in a poke" thing and if Hornby withdraw it from their range I can only see it as an improvememt!

 

I have bought one of each version released so far - I still need to make 'pencil trick' permanent on the BR blue version. My Network South East version did not run well and I simply took it back to Bob at Alton. He sent it back via his Hornby rep and yesterday it arrived back at the shop. Repaired no problem, as iL Dottore says ' Simples'.

Godfrey

[Stevelewis]

 

I have bought one of each version released so far - I still need to make 'pencil trick' permanent on the BR blue version. My Network South East version did not run well and I simply took it back to Bob at Alton. He sent it back via his Hornby rep and yesterday it arrived back at the shop. Repaired no problem, as iL Dottore says ' Simples'.

Godfrey

Surely though if you have purchased an item which is unsatisfactory, why accept a repair? Surely a new item ( or refund) would be more acceptable .

 

A retailer I recently spoke to recently told me he has more than half a doxen VEPs awaiting collection by Hornby for credit.

[spamcan61]

Surely though if you have purchased an item which is unsatisfactory, why accept a repair? Surely a new item ( or refund) would be more acceptable .

 

 

More acceptable, but under SOGA I think the retailer has the right to repair before they are obliged to replace or refund, unless the item has been misdescribed by the retailer.

 

EDIT, not quite, one can demand a refund 'at purchase or shortly afterwards' so in this context then sounds like a refund would've been in order.

Edited November 24, 2011 by spamcan61

[metadyneman]

If it is so faulty, why not send it back to the shop you bought it from for a replacement? I had a Hornby 28XX with quite a few problems (possibly damage in transit, although the outside of the model was undamaged), I sent it back and got a replacement that has run beautifully. Simples

 

It's all very well and easy suggesting this and if I had only been using the unit for a week or so I would probably have done just as you suggest, however a) I have weathered my model and B) being a very experienced modeller of some 40 odd years have made my own repairs to it so sending it back is simply not an otion. The faults that have occurred on my model have happened over a period of time and it is simply not practical to return it every time a wire comes adrift and ask for a replacement. As I have stated before in this thread, the Hornby VEP is simply not fit for purpose.

[Stevelewis]

Ah That explains it !

 

I know the feeling, as an experienced modeller of over 50 years It is so frustrating when faults occur on models which you know are probably a manufacturer error but know that it may be poss to rectify with less hassle ( See also my recent post in the Desiro thread, the glitch I am experiencing with that unit is such that I could have rejected it, but am prepared to rectify it myself , hopefully)

[metadyneman]

I think it is also a case of I was fed up last night with the thing breaking down yet again, necessitating a trip to my workbench to investigate the problem. I have a feeling that this time something has gone wrong with the lighting capacitors. The lights are on permanently but very dim irrespective of whether I press F1 or not, and when I take the unit off the track it takes a full 30 seconds for the lights to extinguish fully!

[Stevelewis]

I think it is also a case of I was fed up last night with the thing breaking down yet again, necessitating a trip to my workbench to investigate the problem. I have a feeling that this time something has gone wrong with the lighting capacitors. The lights are on permanently but very dim irrespective of whether I press F1 or not, and when I take the unit off the track it takes a full 30 seconds for the lights to extinguish fully!

My view would be that if you can remove capacitors, do so, in my opinion capacitors are the greatest source of peroblem causing in digital circuits, I learned this many years ago when I first started using digital! Since then whenever I see capacitiors I remove them and this has served me well!

 

Its intersting to note that Bachmann's 0 gauge Brass loco range ( now discontinued) do not contain anything in their circuits usually just the cables connecting the loco pickups to the motor

[metadyneman]

I agree with you Steve however the capacitors I was referring to are the ones in the lighting circuit which are not connected to the motor.

[Stevelewis]

Interesting to note that in the 2012 edition of " Britain's Model Trains" Bachmann's 4 CEP gets a 10 / 10 rating for Performance and 10/10 for value for money and an overall rating of 95%

 

,Whilst Hornby's 4 VEP is rated 7/10 for performance, 6/10 for value for money and an overall rating of 74%

[metadyneman]

Having been a contributor to this thread for a while and having seen some of the comments I'm really surprised the VEP got as high as 74%! However it does go to show that Hornby have a long way to go if they think they can enter the EMU market at such a low level and get a way with it. Well done to Bachmann... you never know, we may now see more EMUs from them which can only be a good thing because it means we won't see any more shoddy ones from Hornby!

 

Incidentally I traced the lighting fault to a knackered resistor, not a capacitor!

[Stevelewis]

Having been a contributor to this thread for a while and having seen some of the comments I'm really surprised the VEP got as high as 74%! However it does go to show that Hornby have a long way to go if they think they can enter the EMU market at such a low level and get a way with it. Well done to Bachmann... you never know, we may now see more EMUs from them which can only be a good thing because it means we won't see any more shoddy ones from Hornby!

 

Incidentally I traced the lighting fault to a knackered resistor, not a capacitor!

Just scanning randomly through the pages of the publication, whilst several models do get lowish overall ratings around the 60% to 80% mark these generally fall into the old established model sector, it is unusual to find a NEW model with such a low rating as 74%

[Talltim]

 

One thing I have noticed on this unit is that the traction tyres are on different axles; that is one is on the left side of one axle and one is on the right side of the other axle. I am sure my earlier ones were both on the same axle (and looking at S A C Martin's photos they are also on the same axle). I have pointed this out to Hornby to see what they say. Observations of how others' VEPs are configured and whether this would make any difference to the reported slipping problems are welcome.

 

My initial thought was that this should work much better on tight curves than having traction tires one both wheels of an axle, allowing the other wheel to slip slightly, however the two axles are geared together so this should make no difference.

[kintbury jon]

Not sure whether this has been mentioned before (and the thread is so big it would take me ages to check!) but before my dad took his blue VEP home last weekend, I swapped the traction tyred axle on my NSE one with his non-traction tyred example. On level track it ran much nicer and even though it could not start uphill on a gradient, it was able to ascend if it took a run up.

 

My VEP does have added weight around the motor bogie which I do think helps. I intend to purchase a non traction tyred axle once it becomes available.

Edited November 25, 2011 by kintbury jon

[Stevelewis]

Not sure whether this has been mentioned before (and the thread is so big it would take me ages to check!) but before my dad took his blue VEP home last weekend, I swapped the traction tyred axle on my NSE one with his non-traction tyred example. On level track it ran much nicer and even though it could not start uphill on a gradient, it was able to ascend if it took a run up.

 

My VEP does have added weight around the motor bogie which I do think helps. I intend to purchase a non traction tyred axle once it becomes available.

 

This just illustrates the difference between 2 manufacturers models,........... The Bachmann 4-CEP will restart on a 1 in 30 gradient on a slightly less than 18" radius curve ( leads to storage sidings) without hesitation and no traction tyres, whilst tthe Hornby 4-VEP which we had failed to cover 25% of the gradient even when it was reduced to a 3 car set and it took a full speed run at the gradient!

( the 4-VEP was returned to the supplier pretty sharpish for a refund!)

[metadyneman]

I have to say I won't be buying another one.. a total disappointment and let down. I'm considering de motoring mine and having it as a dummy unit for haulage by either a 33/1 or a Bachmann EPB. Total waste of my money as far as I'm concerned. I'm even considering cancelling my order for a 5 car Brighton Belle in favour of what is looking to be a vastly superior Blue Pullman from Bachmann, unless there is some announcement from Hornby that it won't be manufactured in the same way as the VEP!